Transmission Problem

[Rusty]

101,00 miles. I noticed a transmision fluid leak on the garage floor (on the drivers side) . According to a transmission shop the seal is leaking where the axle connects and there is ½” vertical play inside. I was told a new seal wouldn’t last because the bearing behind the seal is worn. So…. the transmission would have to come out to fix this. Estimated repair cost around $1,400 - $1500.

Has anybody else seen this problem before ?

Car still looks nice and runs fine, but can’t help wondering what problems I’ll be looking at next . I’m half considering moving on to a different car - economically that’s not going to make me feel any better - and I’m pretty sure it won’t be half as nice or as much fun to drive.

[rockfangd]

ouch. Unfortunately I have heard of this a few times before, only on 2001+, who would think something with so little miles could do that

[Cadillac Jim]

For that kind of money I would be looking instead for transmission rebuild, with all new clutches, seals, solenoids, and gaskets. This sounds strange for a 4T80E, which is pretty much bulletproof for other model years.

[BodybyFisher]

I would get a second opinion on that.

I had the side cover off to do the ISS speed sensor, see this, that is the seal you are talking about

All that was required was to tilt the engine carriage, once in there you can see the sprockets and drive chain

Not sure what they must replace, but I would think this would be deep enough

[Rusty]

I would get a second opinion on that.

I had the side cover off to do the ISS speed sensor, see this, that is the seal you are talking about

All that was required was to tilt the engine carriage, once in there you can see the sprockets and drive chain

Not sure what they must replace, but I would think this would be deep enough

Thanks for the information - the drawings and photos are very helpful. But IF the needle bearing behind the seal is bad (evidenced by the movement) wouldn't you have to remove the tranny to get to this bearing ?

[BodybyFisher]

Its not the needle bearing that is bad, that is a thrust bearing,

I have a 4T80E manual, Ill look it over later and see where the bushings are, its possible that that gear you see, sits on a babbet bearing of some sort and its now loose, as you can see, the axle plugs right into that gear.

Ill pull my manual later and take a look. Be patient, I think they are ripping the tranny apart unnecessarily, but they may NOT be over reacting also... We need to see where the bushing is that is loose, if its right near that gear, it may just be tilting the tranny and getting it from the side pan... They may be thinking that if the bushing is that bad, metallic debris may be all over the tranny.

I also hope that its not the inner CV joint that has become very loose causing an out of round and loose travel

[Rusty]

Its not the needle bearing that is bad, that is a thrust bearing,

I have a 4T80E manual, Ill look it over later and see where the bushings are, its possible that that gear you see, sits on a babbet bearing of some sort and its now loose, as you can see, the axle plugs right into that gear.

Ill pull my manual later and take a look. Be patient, I think they are ripping the tranny apart unnecessarily, but they may NOT be over reacting also... We need to see where the bushing is that is loose, if its right near that gear, it may just be tilting the tranny and getting it from the side pan... They may be thinking that if the bushing is that bad, metallic debris may be all over the tranny.

I also hope that its not the inner CV joint that has become very loose causing an out of round and loose travel

Update: The transmission shop guy just said it's the "bushing" ( 3rd clutch housing bushing) - sorry not the bearing that needs to be replaced. I'm going to have to get to this problem after the first of the year.

[BodybyFisher]

Yes, I know that, the bearing is a thrust bearing behind the seal that you see, that bearing takes pressure as the sprocket spins, it is an outward motion not a side to side motion, the side to side motion is a bushing. Ill look at the manual to see where the 3rd clutch housing bushing is located

[BodybyFisher]

Here is an exploded view of the driven sprocket and drive link you will notice that there is a thrust bearing (440) in front of the driven sprocket and a ball bearing (408) supporting the driven sprocket. Neither of those is your problem.

Look at the Output Shaft (57), your axle is connected to that output shaft, to the right of the splined area (the splined area is just to the right of the Output shaft snap ring (56)) you will notice a risen area (I believe this is called a "LAND"), that is where I believe the bushing that supports the output shaft resides. I think that is your problem.

In the following photo, look closely for that "LAND" on the output shaft, you will notice that bushing #602 supports that land, my opinion is that the bushing that supports the output shaft is #602, its referred to as the Input Shaft Bushing. Now its necessary to determine if THAT bushing can be replaced without ripping the tranny apart

[BodybyFisher]

Here is a close up of the land and bushing #602. I am not sure why your tranny mechanic thinks that this is your 3rd clutch housing bushing, I dont see that supporting the output shaft that the axle is connected to, the stress is taken up by the first bushing, as a matter of fact, on the bushing blow-up, I dont even see a 3rd clutch housing bushing.

[BodybyFisher]

OK, I just looked at another picture, Ill post it tomorrow, input shaft bushing #602 is part of the third clutch and reaction carrier assembly. So he is correct about the tranny needing to come apart, but you might want to ask him if the third clutch can be rebuilt with the tranny in the car and the carriage tilted. It looks to me like the guts of the tranny come out toward the driver side and the third clutch is the first assembly to come out

[Rusty]

I'll show this to the tranny shop mechanic. I talked to the local Caddy dealer service dept manager, and he seemed to be very familiar this bushing failure.

[BodybyFisher]

Here is a photo of the third clutch assembly, here you can see bushing #602

[Otten33]

BodybyFisher, can you remove the 3rd clutch bushing by accessing it through the side cover? I have a leak in the left axle seal of my 2004 Cadillac Deville DTS. I know its the 3rd clutch bushing from the excessive play in the driver side axle. I have gotten quotes ranging from 1200-3400 to fix and 2200-3800 to repair! Its crazy how wide a range shops quote me. It is really actually sad that so many shops try to take advantage of people when they hear transmission problem. Car drives great and have no DTC codes. It just leaks. Right now I go through a quart every other day. I have replaced the seals twice with no luck. Any help would be much appreciated.

[BodybyFisher]

You know, I don't know that question of the top of my head. A photo of the third clutch assembly is above. If I were you, I would take that photo to a good tranny shop and to your local caddy dealer and ask that question. I do have a rebuilding manual, and I will look it over later to see what the process is to remove that assembly.

[winterset]

I am blown away. So when I am driving around, my 275 hp engines power is transferred to the wheels via a monstrous looking chain like a bicycle. Thanks for the enlightenment.

[Logan]

A version of the drive chain...dates back to the '66 Olds Toronado. GM's first FWD car. That version was a bit different in that the engine was fore and aft like a rear-wheel drive...then the trans was sort of cut in half and turned 180 degrees.

Big block mid sixties stuff.

[BodybyFisher]

I looked for my rebuilding manual and can't find it. Ill keep looking and see if I can find it, once I do, I should be able to figure it out

[Texas Jim]

#08-07-30-009B: HYDRA-MATIC Front Wheel Drive 4T80-E (MH1)Left Front Axle Seal Leak, Transmission Slips in Gear (Replace Third ClutchHousing with Revised Service Part) - (May 1, 2008)

Models 2001-2008 GM Passenger Carswith HYDRA-MATIC® Front WheelDrive 4T80-E Automatic Transmission (RPO– MH1)

Condition

Some customers may comment on a transmission oil leak and/orthat the transmission slips in gear.

Cause

An oil leak may be caused by bushing wear in the thirdclutch housing, causing excessive fluid build-up at axle seal.

Correction

Replace the third clutch housing with service P/N 8682114,which has revised bushing material to extend life and reduce left front axleseal leaks.

Refer to Automatic/Transaxle–4T80-E Transmission

[BodybyFisher]

BodybyFisher, can you remove the 3rd clutch bushing by accessing it through the side cover? I have a leak in the left axle seal of my 2004 Cadillac Deville DTS. I know its the 3rd clutch bushing from the excessive play in the driver side axle. I have gotten quotes ranging from 1200-3400 to fix and 2200-3800 to repair! Its crazy how wide a range shops quote me. It is really actually sad that so many shops try to take advantage of people when they hear transmission problem. Car drives great and have no DTC codes. It just leaks. Right now I go through a quart every other day. I have replaced the seals twice with no luck. Any help would be much appreciated.

The info that Texas Jim posted confirms my theory that the bushing (602) in the third clutch assembly is the problem. Thanks Jim. Looking through the service manual, the third clutch assembly is removed through the side pan. It looks like once you get the transmission case cover off and can see the sprockets and chain the following assemblies must come out in successive order

1) Driven Sprocket Support and 2nd Clutch Assembly

2) Reverse Clutch and 2nd Sprag Clutch Assemblies

and then what you need to repair

3) 3rd Clutch and Reaction Carrier Assembly

Within the 3rd Clutch and Reaction Carrier Assembly is the bushing 602 that I have detailed previously in this thread. Part #604 the 3rd Clutch Housing is what needs to be replaced according to the above Service Bulletin. Personally, I would rather replace the bushing but if they say the entire housing needs replacing so be it.

I do not think this is a job for everybody, but if you have the room, tools, manuals and patience, I believe it can be done.

[BodybyFisher]

I am blown away. So when I am driving around, my 275 hp engines power is transferred to the wheels via a monstrous looking chain like a bicycle. Thanks for the enlightenment.

And the amazing thing about that is that I have never heard of a chain breaking

[BodybyFisher]

By the way, if you decide to do this job, I would make a deal with a local tranny rebuilder to have each of the assemblies rebuilt or rebuild them yourself with new seals, clutches, steels and any bands you run into. I forget, but I recall buying or making a tool to aid in the installation of seals into the clutch hubs but you will need to look into special tools required to accomplish this job. That is why it may make sense to let a good shop rebuild the assemblies for you and clean the parts in their cleaning equipment.

You will also want to replace any solenoids, sensors, filters, seals, and gaskets you find along the way.

[Cadillac Jim]

I'll show this to the tranny shop mechanic. I talked to the local Caddy dealer service dept manager, and he seemed to be very familiar this bushing failure.

I've seen dealer service managers that would claim to be familiar with the flux capacitor and dilithium reactor in the Northstar. If you want the straight skinny, ask the tech - but note that (1) most dealers don't want to aggravate the techs and waste their time with customer direct questions, and (2) most dealer techs see only warranty work and broken cars and are a bit negative about things. You can also ask to talk to the service manager, who is usually (but not always) in a separate office than the service people that you talk to when you take the car in for service.

EDIT: I missed the second page of posts. What BodybyFIsher says - because you want the tranny good for the long haul once you put it back.

[Rob Uwish]

Wow I wish I would of found this sooner, and I'm wondering why my mechanic didn't..

Question say I was out on a run traveling a a extremely high rate of speed and the Third clutch housing let go made all kinds of noise is it worth saving ? My mechanic just kept replacing outer seals

He is not my mechanic any more but I miss my car

[mikelawson]

I've had several 01 and newer Cadillac's come in with this issue as of late, so I decided to make a repair. I finished the prototype and installed in the first car today and sealed great with no issues! I attached some pics, but will attach better ones when the account restrictions are removed.

Mike