Northstar Allante as a collector?

[firefoot0315]

This thought has been on my mind for a few weeks now, ever since I saw a couple low-mileage Northstar Allantes for sale in the local classifieds. The Allante was the first Cadillac to get the Northstar treatment, and to the best of my knowledge they only produced 3200 of them with the Northstar. Now it's not remotely within my means to get another car right now, but being so rare and important to a whole generation of Cadillacs, I wonder: does the Northstar Allante have the potential to be a collector car some day?

[sonjaab]

Well with fears of the pulled head bolt issues in the pre-2003 N-star?

I wouldn't mind a Allante with the 4.9/4.5 at the right price for a play

toy Sunday summer ride............

Of course the prices for a late model XLR are quite attractive also!

A collector car? For the average Joe.........NAH!!!!

Only us die hard Caddy freaks drool over them!

[HartfordGuy]

Well for what it's worth, at the 2010 Barrett-Jackson auction in Palm Beach a 1993 Allante with only 7800 miles on it sold for $24,000. It was red with the Northstar and an immaculate Naples, Fla car. I thought it would have sold for more.

[Bruce Nunnally]

I think a 93 Allante with low miles would be a great car at $5K or so, but yes they fell off the $15K level they had been I think after the XLRs came along. $24K seems well sold to me currently. They seem to be very good cars, but ANY 1993 model is going to be a hobby to keep working properly, albeit a fun hobby.

[firefoot0315]

Interesting...the ones I saw in the paper were $15k with 80k miles if I remember correctly. I was amazed that they were that expensive. $5k does seem like a more reasonable price, given the going price of other 16-17 year old Cadillacs. My curiosity is if/when they might start to appreciate in value. Bruce, do you say that a 1993 would be a lot of work just because of its age, or were there still bugs in 1993?

Now, to hijack my own topic, what would the collector value be for a 1985 Fleetwood Coupe with a thousand miles on it? There is one I know of that I could very feasibly own given the resources. It would need work since it hasn't been driven in 20 years, but I see that as a worthy project some day. I haven't been able to find much about Fleetwood Coupes online, but it's a beautiful car and one of the last of the real land yachts. I hope I'll have the chance to restore it and give it the life it missed out on someday regardless, but out of curiosity would that be a really worthwhile collector?

[Bruce Nunnally]

Age only. The 1992 had the 4.5L OHV engine but nicer Recaro seats. The 93 is considered more desirable because of the NS engine, but I have often thought a 92 would be the one to get. Now I think I wold get an XLR before an Allante, especially if similar money -- some XLRs are in the 20s now.

[Texas Jim]

Interesting...the ones I saw in the paper were $15k with 80k miles if I remember correctly. I was amazed that they were that expensive. $5k does seem like a more reasonable price, given the going price of other 16-17 year old Cadillacs. My curiosity is if/when they might start to appreciate in value. Bruce, do you say that a 1993 would be a lot of work just because of its age, or were there still bugs in 1993?

Now, to hijack my own topic, what would the collector value be for a 1985 Fleetwood Coupe with a thousand miles on it? There is one I know of that I could very feasibly own given the resources. It would need work since it hasn't been driven in 20 years, but I see that as a worthy project some day. I haven't been able to find much about Fleetwood Coupes online, but it's a beautiful car and one of the last of the real land yachts. I hope I'll have the chance to restore it and give it the life it missed out on someday regardless, but out of curiosity would that be a really worthwhile collector?

I had a 1984 Fleetwood Brougham de Elegance.

Had it from 1984 till 2001.

It was a great car...I should have never sold it..

[HartfordGuy]

I wouldn't touch an HT4100 equipped car again. I had a 1983 Eldorado that idled very erratic. I took it to my local Caddy dealer and even they couldn't get it to run right. After spending hundreds to try to fix it, they finally called and said "This isn't an XLR sir, we suggest you sell it". Those HT4100s engines were ticking time bombs and even the dealer didn't want to see me pour money into it.

It's a darn shame as I think the 1980-85 Cadillacs were very attractive cars. I sure wish Cadillac had left the 368 in them up till the 5.0 was ready to drop in.

[ted tcb]

I only have a vague knowledge of the Allante, but I do enjoy living vicariously and reading the Allante

specific forums.

From what I recall, many Allante owners find the 93 to be a decontented car ... it lost those marvelous

Recaro seats, lost the Bose stereo, lost the vent windows which reduced wind buffeting, plus lots of other

cost cutting decisions were made.

To me, the perfect Allante would be a 1992 with the reliable 4.9 motor, thick leather Recaros, Bosch III

brakes (properly maintained), and Bose stereo.

Great cars.

[firefoot0315]

Again, interesting. I don't know much about Allantes other than they were low sellers and, ironically because of that, were the first cars to get the Northstar. The 4.9 sounds sufficient for that car, and the Bose stereo would be a big plus.

As for the Fleetwood, I would seriously consider pulling out the HT4100 and putting in a LS1. The '85 Fleetwood had the option for the Olds 5.7 liter diesel, so I'm willing to bet that with a few modifications the 5.7 liter LS1 would fit just fine. Just as smooth and efficient, and 3x more powerful, seems like a win-win to me

[Cadillac Jim]

A 50-State-legal upgrade for your 1985 Fleetwood would be the LS3 E-Rod:

Summit Racing page:

http://www.summitracing.com/search/Department/Engines-Components/Section/Engine-Assemblies/Brand/GM-Performance/Product-Line/GM-Performance-LS3-6-2L-E-Rod-Crate-Engines/?autoview=SKU

GM Performance Parts page:

http://www.gmperformanceparts.com/EngineShowcase/index.jsp?engId=LS362L&engine=LS3%206.2L&sku=19201992&engCat=ls

You're not going to find a cheaper, more satisfying upgrade. Do upgrade your transmission, too, either with a TCI or equivalent rebuild that matches its capacities to your new engine and add an external cooler, recondition and consider upgrading your brakes, and think really hard about your suspension.

[HartfordGuy]

I recall that the early Allantes had rook leaking issues. So a later one would definately be the way to go.

[KHE]

I wouldn't touch an HT4100 equipped car again. I had a 1983 Eldorado that idled very erratic. I took it to my local Caddy dealer and even they couldn't get it to run right. After spending hundreds to try to fix it, they finally called and said "This isn't an XLR sir, we suggest you sell it". Those HT4100s engines were ticking time bombs and even the dealer didn't want to see me pour money into it.

It's a darn shame as I think the 1980-85 Cadillacs were very attractive cars. I sure wish Cadillac had left the 368 in them up till the 5.0 was ready to drop in.

The key to a long life for a 4100 engine is to keep the coolant changed on a regular basis and use the bars leaks tablets that were mandatory for those engines. Most failed 4100s can be traced to the owner not using the coolant seal tabs and the cylinder o-rings deteriorated allowing coolant to enter the oil which ruined the bearings.

I wouldn't remove a 4100 engine just because it may fail down the road. Cadillac couldn't use the 368 much longer than they did due to the fuel economy standards and the fact that gas prices were skyrocketing at the time.

I've never had good luck with dealerships working on older cars. It is as if they don't know the older cars or don't want to be bothered with the older cars.

[Texas Jim]

I wouldn't touch an HT4100 equipped car again. I had a 1983 Eldorado that idled very erratic. I took it to my local Caddy dealer and even they couldn't get it to run right. After spending hundreds to try to fix it, they finally called and said "This isn't an XLR sir, we suggest you sell it". Those HT4100s engines were ticking time bombs and even the dealer didn't want to see me pour money into it.

It's a darn shame as I think the 1980-85 Cadillacs were very attractive cars. I sure wish Cadillac had left the 368 in them up till the 5.0 was ready to drop in.

I know the 4.1's were problematic for a lot of people.

I got lucky, in that mine was a good one.

I had it from 1984 till 2001.

Put over 150,000 on it with very little trouble at all.

[jock82]

I had a 1983 Fleetwood Brougham de'elegance. I thought it was the most beautiful Cadillac I have ever owned, not counting my

1970 coupe de ville. I drove it 12 years and I, too, should never have traded it. I had a lot less trouble with it than the 1994 Concours I purchased next. A funeral home bought it and the last time I heard, it was still in use. I thought the Fleetwood was the last true Cadillac. I have an 89 de ville, the 94 Concours, and a 2009 DTS.

[firefoot0315]

My big qualms with the HT4100 are that, since it's been rotting for 20 years, I'm afraid that I'll have even more maintenance problems with it than otherwise statistically likely. Plus, 125 horsepower in a car that size just seems laughable. But incidentally, what was the fuel economy rating of the HT4100? In my mind it seems that it wouldn't do any better than the Northstar, so at the very least I would consider replacing it with a Northstar, though seems like a LS engine would be cheaper and perform just as well (especially since the Northstars are stopped now).

[KHE]

125 HP in a car that size is laughable by today's standards. Back then, gas was $1.38 per gallon which in today's dollars would be around $3.00 and fuel prices were expected to triple so the Automakers were doing everything they could to get the MPG up.

It has been so long, I don't recall what the fuel economy rating was on the 4100. I do remember averaging 23-24 MPG on the highway out of the HT-4100 in an '85 Fleetwood Brougham d'Elegance.

Retrofitting a Northstar engine into a RWD Brougham would be too much of a project... Much easier to use a Chevrolet 350. Even at that, it will be a big project.

Was the existing engine started periodically over the years? I'd just change the oil, filter and coolant and drive it.

[CarlaValentine]

You'd want to check the belt too. If it has been sitting that long then there's a good chance the belt is in pretty bad shape.

[Ed Hall]

This thought has been on my mind for a few weeks now, ever since I saw a couple low-mileage Northstar Allantes for sale in the local classifieds. The Allante was the first Cadillac to get the Northstar treatment, and to the best of my knowledge they only produced 3200 of them with the Northstar. Now it's not remotely within my means to get another car right now, but being so rare and important to a whole generation of Cadillacs, I wonder: does the Northstar Allante have the potential to be a collector car some day?

I own both the first year 1987 Allante and the last year 1993 Allante with a Northstar. My dad also owns a very clean 1989 Allante. The 87-88 came with a 4.1 and 89-92 came with a 4.5 which had the same block as other Cadillacs but was unique in most other aspects. The 4.9 engine was never used in the Allante. I believe the Allante does have the potential of becoming a collector car some day. It was rare, expensive, exclusive, fast, fun to drive and envied by many who could only dream of driving one. In 1993, it was also the fastest FWD vehicle produced at the time with a top speed around 155 mph. That said, life is too short and uncertain so I just drive and enjoy mine as any regular car with little consideration to its collectability. So far, they have been very reliable and definitely a blast to drive around. I did buy the 1987 with a defective transmission and rebuilt it myself. The 1993 had some body damage when I bought it and I fixed it. The biggest issue with these cars is the unavailability and high cost of body parts and miscellaneous rubbers. For an example, a used headlight can sell for around $500 on Ebay and I was quoted $2300 for a used hood from the junk yard. As a result, many Allante’s are being parted out right now because they’re worth far more for parts than whole. So they will quickly become even rarer as time goes on. Regarding collectability, my best guess is the 1987 will become the most valuable. It was the first year of production and if not already, will have the least surviving numbers due to being parted out. It was the most hated of the bunch because it was the least powerful and had the most number of quirky issues common to Italian collectibles. The 1993 Allante will have by far the most number of units that survive. Very few 1993’s get parted out because of being perceived as most collectible and ease of maintainability. They shared more parts from GM’s common line of cars so parts are a lot more available. It came with the Northstar engine but the rest of the car was dumbed down to cut costs and appeal more to the masses. It was fitted with puffy Cadillac seats, floaty riding struts, inferior stereo system and it lost the vent windows and advanced lighting. I should also note that I have heard of very few 1993 Allante’s blowing out head gaskets. The 1993’s came with the green coolant and the owners tended to maintain them. I also suspect the engine blocks from earlier years may be less likely to have voids/porosity in the metal than the more recent engine blocks.

[firefoot0315]

125 HP in a car that size is laughable by today's standards. Back then, gas was $1.38 per gallon which in today's dollars would be around $3.00 and fuel prices were expected to triple so the Automakers were doing everything they could to get the MPG up.

It has been so long, I don't recall what the fuel economy rating was on the 4100. I do remember averaging 23-24 MPG on the highway out of the HT-4100 in an '85 Fleetwood Brougham d'Elegance.

Retrofitting a Northstar engine into a RWD Brougham would be too much of a project... Much easier to use a Chevrolet 350. Even at that, it will be a big project.

Was the existing engine started periodically over the years? I'd just change the oil, filter and coolant and drive it.

That is amazing fuel economy for a V8 in a car that size. And I guess as an in-town cruiser I potentially wouldn't need all the horsepower of a LS3, although it would be fun. And no, the existing engine has almost never run. To the best of my knowledge, the car sat idle from about 1994 to 2000, at which point it was taken to a dealership and fixed to running condition, then parked again. From there, not only has it not started, but it has become a catch-all shelf in a garage. It is really sad. The charcoal gray paint is barely visible throuh the dust, and the bumper fillers are long gone. However, from what little I can see in the dark corner of the garage, the interior is still in mint condition and there is no serious body damage.

At any rate, it will be several years before I can realistically consider restoring the car. For now, it's something to look forward to. Nor do I believe I have to worry about it going anywhere before I have the means to take it on. Here's to hoping I can post another Cadillac success story on here in a few years

[Ed Hall]

125 HP in a car that size is laughable by today's standards. Back then, gas was $1.38 per gallon which in today's dollars would be around $3.00 and fuel prices were expected to triple so the Automakers were doing everything they could to get the MPG up.

It has been so long, I don't recall what the fuel economy rating was on the 4100. I do remember averaging 23-24 MPG on the highway out of the HT-4100 in an '85 Fleetwood Brougham d'Elegance.

Retrofitting a Northstar engine into a RWD Brougham would be too much of a project... Much easier to use a Chevrolet 350. Even at that, it will be a big project.

Was the existing engine started periodically over the years? I'd just change the oil, filter and coolant and drive it.

That is amazing fuel economy for a V8 in a car that size. And I guess as an in-town cruiser I potentially wouldn't need all the horsepower of a LS3, although it would be fun. And no, the existing engine has almost never run. To the best of my knowledge, the car sat idle from about 1994 to 2000, at which point it was taken to a dealership and fixed to running condition, then parked again. From there, not only has it not started, but it has become a catch-all shelf in a garage. It is really sad. The charcoal gray paint is barely visible throuh the dust, and the bumper fillers are long gone. However, from what little I can see in the dark corner of the garage, the interior is still in mint condition and there is no serious body damage.

At any rate, it will be several years before I can realistically consider restoring the car. For now, it's something to look forward to. Nor do I believe I have to worry about it going anywhere before I have the means to take it on. Here's to hoping I can post another Cadillac success story on here in a few years

This might sound crazy but for power that would compare to a Northstar and fuel economy in the 30-35 mpg range, I would install a 6.2/6.5L turbo diesel from a GM truck. These were light weight diesels that were capable of output over 300 hp and good fuel economy in a small package. It would fit right under the hood, use the existing motor mounts and bolt to the existing transmission. It's a shame that GM chose to install the junky 5.7L diesel that was basically a gas engine that they half hazardly converted to diesel. Reliability was terrible and it gave GM and bad name especially with the diesel passenger car market.

Even today, the US lags very far behind Europe for diesel passenger cars.

[Cadillac Jim]

The Allante had a special 4.5 liter engine that developed 200 hp, the same as the 4.9. Even in 1987 when they had the 4.1, the Allante version was 170 hp versus the 130 hp of the version used in the other Cadillacs. In 1988 the other Cadillacs got a 155 hp 4.5 liter while the Allante stayed with the 170 hp 4.1 liter special engine.

[firefoot0315]

125 HP in a car that size is laughable by today's standards. Back then, gas was $1.38 per gallon which in today's dollars would be around $3.00 and fuel prices were expected to triple so the Automakers were doing everything they could to get the MPG up.

It has been so long, I don't recall what the fuel economy rating was on the 4100. I do remember averaging 23-24 MPG on the highway out of the HT-4100 in an '85 Fleetwood Brougham d'Elegance.

Retrofitting a Northstar engine into a RWD Brougham would be too much of a project... Much easier to use a Chevrolet 350. Even at that, it will be a big project.

Was the existing engine started periodically over the years? I'd just change the oil, filter and coolant and drive it.

That is amazing fuel economy for a V8 in a car that size. And I guess as an in-town cruiser I potentially wouldn't need all the horsepower of a LS3, although it would be fun. And no, the existing engine has almost never run. To the best of my knowledge, the car sat idle from about 1994 to 2000, at which point it was taken to a dealership and fixed to running condition, then parked again. From there, not only has it not started, but it has become a catch-all shelf in a garage. It is really sad. The charcoal gray paint is barely visible throuh the dust, and the bumper fillers are long gone. However, from what little I can see in the dark corner of the garage, the interior is still in mint condition and there is no serious body damage.

At any rate, it will be several years before I can realistically consider restoring the car. For now, it's something to look forward to. Nor do I believe I have to worry about it going anywhere before I have the means to take it on. Here's to hoping I can post another Cadillac success story on here in a few years

This might sound crazy but for power that would compare to a Northstar and fuel economy in the 30-35 mpg range, I would install a 6.2/6.5L turbo diesel from a GM truck. These were light weight diesels that were capable of output over 300 hp and good fuel economy in a small package. It would fit right under the hood, use the existing motor mounts and bolt to the existing transmission. It's a shame that GM chose to install the junky 5.7L diesel that was basically a gas engine that they half hazardly converted to diesel. Reliability was terrible and it gave GM and bad name especially with the diesel passenger car market.

Even today, the US lags very far behind Europe for diesel passenger cars.

That sounds excellent, assuming the transmission could hold up to 300 horsepower. It is a shame that the US doesn't have a better diesel market. I'd drive a clean diesel car if I got 35 mpg and no power loss.

[Cadillac Jim]

The Allante never had less than 170 hp, and the 4.5 Allante engine had 200 hp. The 4.1 and 4.5 used the 4T60E transmission, while the Northstars use the 4T80E transmission which is entirely different.

[Ed Hall]

The Allante never had less than 170 hp, and the 4.5 Allante engine had 200 hp. The 4.1 and 4.5 used the 4T60E transmission, while the Northstars use the 4T80E transmission which is entirely different.

The Allante 4.1 & 4.5 utilized what was named the F7 transmission. While similar to the 4T60E transmission, it had differences including a unique valve body, unique shift solenoids and extra friction clutches. These differences were necessary to handle the extra power the Allante engine produced as well as the higher engine RPM band.

The earlier non-V4J 1993 model year Allante’s had a unique transmission which does not interchange with anything else. However, the later V4J 1993 Allante’s do share the same 4T80E’s as other Cadillacs.

The Allante 170 hp 4.1 and 200 hp 4.5 was also unique. Unlike other 4.1’s the Allante engine utilized roller cams, had different pistons, different rods, had unique heads with stiffer springs and unique rocker support fixture and used a unique tube intake manifold. The intake manifold and higher compression ratio was largely responsible for the extra power. The Allante 4.1 & 4.5 also used multi port fuel injection similar to the 1990 Cadillac 4.5’s and 1991 and on 4.9’s.

The 4.9 was never used in the Allante probably because the rest of the drivetrain most likely was already at the limit of its intended design with the 4.5. However, I’ve always thought it would be a neat project to rip out the Allante 4.1/4.5 and install in place a 4.9 and bolt on the Allante heads and intake manifold. Power would probably be around 225 hp and it would produce a lot more torque. As far as I know, nobody has done such a project.