CBOYLE15 Posted November 22, 2005 Report Share Posted November 22, 2005 Ashamed 30,000 people are now going to be out of work because GM management has been "Stuck on Stupid". Toyota will soon be the number one auto maker. Pass that Cup of KOOL-Aide. or sacki Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bruce Nunnally Posted November 22, 2005 Report Share Posted November 22, 2005 This seems extremely harsh. Global economics are much more complicated than simply saying GM Management has not been wise. Bruce 2023 Cadillac CT4-V Blackwing Follow me on: Twitter Instagram Youtube Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ted tcb Posted November 22, 2005 Report Share Posted November 22, 2005 Here's a reality check when considering the business acumen of Asian manufacturer's on domestic soil Honda Canada has 2 manufacturing plants in Alliston, On., north of Toronto. They boast wonderful wages and benefits, including great health and insurance plans for their associates. The reality is that if you pass the interview process, you are offerred a 3 month contract at $17/hr, which may be extended at their discretion to another 7 month contract, then another 10 month contract, totalling 20 months. At the end of 20 months, you have lost your new job ... irregardless of performance and ability, you are simply out of work. During those 20 months, you only receive a very limited benefit package, and family members are not included. Honda Canada has not offerred a full time line worker position in over 12 months. If you make it through the 20 month contract, you are placed on a waiting list that has 12 months of laid off contract workers placed ahead of you. Yes, Honda is an efficient employer, but they essentially build cars at the expense of low paying, contract employees who have limited benefits and absolutely zero future. I have friends in Plant 1 who see very able, dedicated young workers who must walk away and look for other employment at the end of their contract, while they are replaced with new, 3 month probationary associates every 20 months. The veteran employees shake their heads in frustration. $17/hr with no full time future, no benefit future, no chance of annual increases in wage ... this is the lowest paying job in the auto manufacturing industry. Yes, GM has some major repositioning ahead of them in a global business environment ... I'm not a union man, but they definitely have a place in the manufacturing environment. I'm not against a blue collar worker having decent wages and benefits. Perhaps GM's wages and pensions have crippled their budgets, but, Honda is an example of efficiency at the expense of temporary employees wages. There must be a fair, efficient solution between these polar opposite business practices ... the ability to manufacture a car profitably, yet reward the employee with a fair wage. Perhaps GM's downsizing is overdue and necessary to compete with the likes of Honda. My .02 cents in a volatile discussion. 1989 FWD Fleetwood, Silver 1995 STS Crimson Pearl on Black leather 1997 STS Diamond White 1999 STS Crimson Pearl 2001 STS Silver 2003 STS, Crimson Pearl Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bob D Posted November 22, 2005 Report Share Posted November 22, 2005 '93 STS.. opened, dropped, wide...fast. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ranger Posted November 22, 2005 Report Share Posted November 22, 2005 It is exactly that type of "competition" that is going to put this country in another depression. Except this time, it will not happen overnight. Like a stealthy enemy, it is creeping in slowly and unnoticed, one plant, one industry at a time. When we do wake up, it will be too late. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CBOYLE15 Posted November 22, 2005 Author Report Share Posted November 22, 2005 This seems extremely harsh. Global economics are much more complicated than simply saying GM Management has not been wise. Yes GM miscaluclated and kept building those Profitable gas guzzling SUV's (management decision) While Toyota is headed in a different direction (Hybrids) fuel efficent family cars and a quality product. Yea I blame GM management. Perhaps they have to many car line to many different motors ect. Management hopefully will get severly cut as well. At least no Bonus! Ashame for the grunts. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jschunke Posted November 22, 2005 Report Share Posted November 22, 2005 Honda Civic Named Top Car for 2006 Even with all their new models GM is still getting whipped in their own game. They spent the last 20 years pushing SUVs and Pickups while the sedan segment was ignored. They put that noisy 3800 cc front wheel drive setup in just about every sedan they made (excluding Cadillac). I regretfully bought a late 90's Olds, and nobody would take it off my hands. It was a blessing for me when it caught fire. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CaddyChris Posted November 22, 2005 Report Share Posted November 22, 2005 if you hate gm so much get a different car Christopher Petro 94 sts 67 coupe de Ville Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Regis Posted November 22, 2005 Report Share Posted November 22, 2005 I'll second that Bob. Perhaps it'll catch on. "Burns" rubber " I've never considered myself to be all that conservative, but it seems the more liberal some people get the more conservative I become. " Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CBOYLE15 Posted November 22, 2005 Author Report Share Posted November 22, 2005 I do not see any "Hate" here. This appears to be a discussion. Not even a debate much less "hate". Just ideas being kicked around Try to have a open mind. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BodybyFisher Posted November 22, 2005 Report Share Posted November 22, 2005 This seems extremely harsh. Global economics are much more complicated than simply saying GM Management has not been wise. Yes GM miscaluclated and kept building those Profitable gas guzzling SUV's (management decision) While Toyota is headed in a different direction (Hybrids) fuel efficent family cars and a quality product. Yea I blame GM management. Perhaps they have to many car line to many different motors ect. Management hopefully will get severly cut as well. At least no Bonus! Ashame for the grunts. ok you made your point, GM miscalculated and GM and Cadillac sucks YOU made your point repeatedly! For the record I disagree, but hey opinions vary. You may feel more at home here http://gmproblems.com/ bring your attorney who you say is a Consumer Advocate and wants to get to the bottom of their practice, quoted from http://www.cadillacforums.com/forums/showt...?t=33960&page=2 and where you exist as CBOYLE from Pa... Am I reading this wrong your last post over there was in May? Your continued rhetoric is surprising since a bunch of us overlooked your caustic bashing behavior to help you with your oil burning last night. To start a new needling thread is a bit over the top. You have lost my help from this point forward, and in my mind you have made it to troll status. http://caddyinfo.ipbhost.com/index.php?showtopic=7877 See if you have the ability to play a different tune or a flip side. I am not sure what your intent is, you have been told this is a Cadillac Enthusiast site, maybe being a RETIRED PHARMACEUTICAL EXECUTIVE you have a lot of needling time on your hands and lost your shirt on GM stock, who knows. Maybe you are trying to build a case to use against GM with your consumer advocate attorney, who knows. And for the record, I don't see you as a self proclaimed CAR NUT as your profile states. Your form however is very troll like..not discussion like, its negative We should stop feeding the troll. Pre-1995 - DTC codes OBD1 >> 1996 and newer - DTC codes OBD2 >> https://www.obd-codes.com/trouble_codes/gm/obd_codes.htm How to check for codes Caddyinfo How To Technical Archive >> http://www.caddyinfo.com/wordpress/cadillac-how-to-faq/ Cadillac History & Specifications Year by Year http://www.motorera.com/cadillac/index.htm Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CBOYLE15 Posted November 22, 2005 Author Report Share Posted November 22, 2005 This seems extremely harsh. Global economics are much more complicated than simply saying GM Management has not been wise. Yes GM miscaluclated and kept building those Profitable gas guzzling SUV's (management decision) While Toyota is headed in a different direction (Hybrids) fuel efficent family cars and a quality product. Yea I blame GM management. Perhaps they have to many car line to many different motors ect. Management hopefully will get severly cut as well. At least no Bonus! Ashame for the grunts. ok you made your point, GM miscalculated and GM and Cadillac sucks YOU made your point repeatedly! For the record I disagree, but hey opinions vary. You may feel more at home here http://gmproblems.com/ bring your attorney who you say is a Consumer Advocate and wants to get to the bottom of their practice, quoted from http://www.cadillacforums.com/forums/showt...?t=33960&page=2 and where you exist as CBOYLE from Pa... Am I reading this wrong your last post over there was in May? Your continued rhetoric is surprising since a bunch of us overlooked your caustic bashing behavior to help you with your oil burning last night. To start a new needling thread is a bit over the top. You have lost my help from this point forward, and in my mind you have made it to troll status. http://caddyinfo.ipbhost.com/index.php?showtopic=7877 See if you have the ability to play a different tune or a flip side. I am not sure what your intent is, you have been told this is a Cadillac Enthusiast site, maybe being retired you have a lot of needling time on your hands and lost your shirt on GM stock, who knows. Maybe you are trying to build a case to use against GM with your consumer advocate attorney, who knows. Your form however is very troll like..not discussion like, its negative We should stop feeding the troll. Perhaps the truth is hitting home. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Regis Posted November 22, 2005 Report Share Posted November 22, 2005 Here's a look at his initial response before the Edit. Talk about cocky. "Burns" rubber " I've never considered myself to be all that conservative, but it seems the more liberal some people get the more conservative I become. " Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tjtjwdad Posted November 22, 2005 Report Share Posted November 22, 2005 I think it goes deeper than SUV's. There was an interesting thread back in the summer on this subject and the guru himself (man do I miss his postings) pointed out some other issues that come to bear. As I recall (since I can't find his postings) it was ponted out that there isn't a level playing field. GM (along with most other magor corporations) had a retirement system before the era of 401K. Honda, Toyota and others don't have to do that. And as mentioned earlier, they're doing it on the backs of the common worker. In addition GM is one of the largest self-insured medical insurance providers. As far as world economics, I'm not an expert in it but it seems to me that "NAFTA, CAFTA and SCREWYA" (don't mean to offend) mean pretty much the same. Jim Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ted tcb Posted November 22, 2005 Report Share Posted November 22, 2005 My point about the differences in wages paid is similar to bbob's summertime stance on pensions. The playingfield isn't level ... its not about Escalade sales versus Corolla sales. That's part of it, but not the whole story. GM historically rewarded their workers at a much higher level than, say, Honda. GM's committment to the community of Oshawa is much higher than Honda's committment to the town of Alliston. It's difficult to price a car head to head with Honda when they pay $17/hr, virtually no benefits, and absolutely no pension to all of their 20 month "contract employees". Bbob's point was that GM gave a good lifestyle, including strong pensions, to loyal employees for many, many decades. The asians, who build a good product, aren't saddled with this debt. Its not all about the Civic being better than the Pursuit. 1989 FWD Fleetwood, Silver 1995 STS Crimson Pearl on Black leather 1997 STS Diamond White 1999 STS Crimson Pearl 2001 STS Silver 2003 STS, Crimson Pearl Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JasonA Posted November 22, 2005 Report Share Posted November 22, 2005 Yes GM miscaluclated and kept building those Profitable gas guzzling SUV's (management decision) While Toyota is headed in a different direction (Hybrids) fuel efficent family cars and a quality product. You're falling right into Toyota's marketing machine. They love it that you think that they're the "greenest" company out there, in "tune" with the market and the environment. They will and they are building as many Sequoias and Tundras that we'll buy. They're building a new truck plant in Texas dedicated to the production of trucks. GM has hybrid-ized one of its most fuel-consuming vehicle, the 1/2 ton truck. What has Toyota and Honda done? Hybrid-zied their smallest vehicles to capitalize on the HUGE EPA mileage figures they can claim (but that their vehicles don't return). They catch all the suckers who see one Toyota that gets a CLAIMED 60 mpg and apply that "green" image to the rest of the company and get all warm and fuzzy inside. My mother in law has a 2004 Acura TL. Nice car. But higher quality than GM? I think not. Some of the dash panels are ill-fitting (worse than in my Cadillac). There are various rattles in the car on rough roads (because it rides so stiff). The headliner fabric that covers the bottom of the 3rd brake light (mounted on the roof) has come unglued, and it flaps when the windows are down. Don't ask Toyota owners with sludged up engines about "a quality product". If you like them better, fine. But lets stick to the facts. Jason(2001 STS, White Diamond) "When you turn your car on...does it return the favor?" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tjtjwdad Posted November 23, 2005 Report Share Posted November 23, 2005 You know Jason, it's just incredible how short sighted some folks are on any number of issues ... not all of them car related. WRT this subject I consistently hear how lousy American cars are. How they don't last blah, blah, blah ... I tell them the stories of my cars. Every car I've owned has had over 100,000 miles on it and was still running strong when I got rid of it with the exception of 4 cars: 1st: 1979 Olds Cutlass Diesel @ 52,000. Just to many headaches. 2nd: 1998 Bonneville SSEI @ 88,000. Nice car but the trans axle was starting to fail. Looking back I wish I had have kept it. 3rd: 1992 Ford Taurus SHO @ 84,000. As strong running vehicle but the common parts (water pumps etc ...) were starting to hard to come buy without paying a premium. 4th: 1996 Dodge Caravan @ 48,000. Someone not paying attention to the details at hand (driving) ran into the back of it and totaled it. Anyway, I proudly point to my 1992 Ford Bronco w 160,000 . Of course I don't tell them the miles until they ask (they all seem to think it's a lot newer than it really is). That thing is not "maintenance free" but then again, what car is ... a Lexus, a BMW, Mercedes ? I guess what I'm saying when someone has there mind made up that something is better it takes effort to search out the facts. There's been times my Caddy was a PIA ... like when the steering failed. But that Stabilink (spelling) sure worked. Of course the Domino's pizza delivery boy almost rear-ended it because when the stabilink activates ... it doesn't bother with the brake lights ... as he almost found out . For me, I was occupied with steering the thing at the time. I've always thought that the American car industry needs to a better job at marketing their product but even then it's going to be an up hill fight. Jim Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
caddypete Posted November 23, 2005 Report Share Posted November 23, 2005 GM troubles start with unions or a big part of them, not to piss anyone off or offend anyone.But $17 hr Can. is over 40,000/yr US. That is not bad money.When you consider what a teacher makes after 4 years of college,or an accountant or any person that goes to college for 4-8 years. A union Auto maker with no degree with his wages and compensation surpasses them.Someone has to pay thier wages.GM put all the eggs in one basket pushing SUV's because that is where the money is made, the smaller cars they didn't put the effort behind, just keep them cheap, which they have the reputation as cheap.Now when gas prices skyrocket people dump their gas guzzling SUV's but noone wants them so they take a loss, they are not to happy with GM about that. Now what to buy? A CHEVY CAVILIER or a Honda civic? If you honestly had to pick with no bias, taking into consideration,resale value, value for the money,reliabilty.reputation which would you choose? You know it's the Honda.But you also know had GM put half effort behind pushing the smaller cars as it did trucks and SUV's it would easily compete. But to many years of pushing the big SUV's and the smaller cars have a reputation of being budget cars pretty much disposables who really wants one? Now that the reality of gas prices have finally sunk into Americans publics heads and they realize a 20 mpg or better car is the vehical they have to own. GM is not the company that jumps into the buyers mind.At least Caddy has done very well with competing in the luxury car race. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KHE Posted November 23, 2005 Report Share Posted November 23, 2005 GM troubles start with unions or a big part of them, not to piss anyone off or offend anyone.But $17 hr Can. is over 40,000/yr US. That is not bad money.When you consider what a teacher makes after 4 years of college,or an accountant or any person that goes to college for 4-8 years. A union Auto maker with no degree with his wages and compensation surpasses them.Someone has to pay thier wages.GM put all the eggs in one basket pushing SUV's because that is where the money is made, the smaller cars they didn't put the effort behind, just keep them cheap, which they have the reputation as cheap.Now when gas prices skyrocket people dump their gas guzzling SUV's but noone wants them so they take a loss, they are not to happy with GM about that. Now what to buy? A CHEVY CAVILIER or a Honda civic? If you honestly had to pick with no bias, taking into consideration,resale value, value for the money,reliabilty.reputation which would you choose? You know it's the Honda.But you also know had GM put half effort behind pushing the smaller cars as it did trucks and SUV's it would easily compete. But to many years of pushing the big SUV's and the smaller cars have a reputation of being budget cars pretty much disposables who really wants one? Now that the reality of gas prices have finally sunk into Americans publics heads and they realize a 20 mpg or better car is the vehical they have to own. GM is not the company that jumps into the buyers mind.At least Caddy has done very well with competing in the luxury car race. $17 per hour Canadian is roughly $30,000 USD figuring a 40 hour work week. Kevin '93 Fleetwood Brougham '05 Deville '04 Deville 2013 Silverado Z71 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tjtjwdad Posted November 23, 2005 Report Share Posted November 23, 2005 Well the "American Car Industry" has definitely changed. The SUV market was around for several years and from a business standpoint how can you ignore that? It seemed, as there wasn't enough to meet the demand. I don't know ... I just don't have the answers. It's easy to speculate after the fact and ICO some may not have heard; the foreign auto companies are feeling the SUV glut as well. I have to disagree if you're pinning GM's trouble on the unions; I think it's much broader than that. I've never belonged to a union but it does take an amount of "blue color" work to get the job done? Why shouldn't they be compensated for the end result? I've seen some bright intellectual individuals in my time but if they had to use their hands (pardon my pun) they couldn't "...pour piss from a boot with the instructions written on the heel..." Some folks on the other hand are craftsman and are equally as talented as their degreed counter-parts ... and I feel should be compensated accordingly. But that's just me. Is there a conspiracy out there with the oil companies? Who knows ... One thing is for sure, I for one am not thrilled that the battery for my STS is inside the passenger compartment. I haven't given it any thought about the arrangement of the main storage unit of these hybrid cars. Another thing is paramount; Kids today need to get a skill/craft or an education to stay competitive. There is no corporate loyalty anymore. In fact the only corporate loyalty a company has is with the "almighty dollar". Basically it's a dog-eat-dog world and we're all wearing "milk-bone underwear". Jim Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TexasAxMan Posted November 23, 2005 Report Share Posted November 23, 2005 caddypete, I agree with you (even though your math skills failed you, at least temporarily). I was totally shelled over the summer for stating an opinion very similar to yours. For the record, those of us not in a union have to negotiate our own wages. As such, if we are doing a good job, our compensation is adjusted. If not, there's always the unemployment line. A union employee's compensation is negotiated for him by a third party and his level of performance is not taken into consideration. In addition, option 2 is not available to the employer. Also, according to what I have read, the average UAW wage is $27.50/hr, which equates to $57,200 annually, plus overtime, plus benefits, etc. All in all, GM spends upwards of $70K for each employee. Many college graduates don't make that much, especially teachers. Shell me if you want, but GM will need to focus much of its efforts on UAW negotiations and/or bankruptcy in order to keep afloat. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tjtjwdad Posted November 23, 2005 Report Share Posted November 23, 2005 I take it that GM, Ford & Chrysler all have dealings with unions. Does anyone know if the foreign car market that is here in America deals with unions? Just Curious Jim Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TexasAxMan Posted November 23, 2005 Report Share Posted November 23, 2005 As I understand (not absolutely sure about this one), most foreign car makers have built their plants in less urban areas and therefore been successful at keeping out unions. Most of these areas are in the south and their average pay rates are far below UAW workers. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
caddypete Posted November 24, 2005 Report Share Posted November 24, 2005 tjtjwdad I agree that labor should be rewarded, but someone has to control what can be paid to still turn somewhat of a profit otherwise you price yourself out of a job. McDonalds is a multi million dollar company, but if unions negotiated the wages for the employees they would be making $12.00 hr with benifits.Your $1.00 double cheeseburger would cost $2.50.Wendy's value choice menu would be over 2.00. They would be out of business in no time unless all the other food establishments doubled thier prices also.Those people need to make a decent wage also, but it is a low paying job or no job.If they made 12.00 hr they would be buying new cars and GM wouldn't be in such a crunch. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ted tcb Posted November 24, 2005 Report Share Posted November 24, 2005 No union at Honda. I agree with a free market, but you cannot have 2000 employees negotiating their wage based upon individual performance. In a manufacturing plant, union or not, the wages are autocratically set. Honda pays you 30k USD, limited benefits, no pension, then kisses you goodbye in the 20th month. You cannot negotiate a higher wage based upon your assembly abilities. Right or wrong, GM is saddled with a much higher debt based upon stronger wages and benefits derived from years of union contracts. The final downward spiral for GM will most likely end up in one of two scenarios. 1- Bankruptcy followed by fiscal reorganization whereby a new, lean, unencumbered GM surfaces. 2- Continued layoffs and plant closures, resulting in a company that barely resembles the automotive giant we've come to know. Its a global environment where competition comes from every continent. I hope that The General can survive, but it won't happen by simply introducing popular cars. Those days are long gone, as GM is saddled with 2 decades of previous debt to manage. Tough decisions ... and no one should take joy in GM's troubles, as the snowball effect in our economy is tremendous. 1989 FWD Fleetwood, Silver 1995 STS Crimson Pearl on Black leather 1997 STS Diamond White 1999 STS Crimson Pearl 2001 STS Silver 2003 STS, Crimson Pearl Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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