'03 Deville has check coolant light

[epricedright]

My son needs a car, looking at a 2003 Deville with 122K and the owner says it has a check coolant level light (not sure yet exact wording) that comes on. He had the water pump (was leaking) and the AC/Heat fan replaced by a Cadillac dealership last fall and they said his cooling system is fine and that it's just a sensor ($300). It supposedly has no coolant leaks or loss. What do you think? I haven't seen the car yet to pull the codes.

[BodybyFisher]

The check coolant light is a LEVEL sensor. Its in the coolant tank. I am not 100% sure, but some say that you can replace the sensor and not replace the tank, I was always under the impression that the sensor was an integral part of the tank and the tank needed to be replaced, its about $225 on rockauto or gmotors,

That said, you MAY be able to pull the tank, and flush it out, it may be gunked up, especially if someone put tablets in it or sealer. Flush it first. Do a combustion by products test on this car before you buy it given its history of water pump..... Get it at NAPA, its a Balkamp part, its called a block tester.

[epricedright]

Hi Mike! Thanks for the reply!

I found the ACDelco 25774005 Radiator Surge Tank w/Sensor for $72 on Amazon. Good advice on flushing the tank first. I already have the block tester from Autozone....just as good?

[rockfangd]

please keep us up on this. If that is the only problem that is great. like fisher said it may just be gunked up and needs a cleaning

[epricedright]

The seller is bringing the car to my house here in 2 hours (he's on an assignment 1 mile away) so I should know something here soon. Bringing the car to me....how cool is that! He did confirm the light says "Check Coolant Level".

[BodybyFisher]

Any device that will detect combustion by-products in the coolant is fine. If you have something that will change colors great.

[KHE]

It could be the level sensor in the surge tank. The "Check Coolant Level" message is probably what is appearing on the information center. If the message is on, unplug the sensor on the bottom of the surge tank and jump the pins on the harness. If the message goes away, it is the sensor.

[epricedright]

Yes, the block tester changes colors from blue to yellow. And yes it says "Check Coolant Level" on the DIC, he sent a pic. Kevin, are there only 2 pins to jump? I don't want to chance shorting anything out.

[joeb]

Really stupid question. Has owner checked level?

[epricedright]

Yes, he has.checked it. lol And he stated he has never had to add any. Time to see car has changed to 4pm EST. He spent $1550 at the stealership last fall. Work done: new water pump and belt, new blower motor, new window regulator and harness, coolant "flush', and some other misc. New Goodyear Integrity (cheapos?) tires ($450) in Oct 2012. His asking price is $4300 and it's negotiable. I'm thinking $3800-3900.

[epricedright]

This one has the alloy wheels (not chrome). Are those better with the corrosion issue I've had with my chrome wheels. My chrome wheels have corrosion on the inside where the tire bead is and have to be periodically sealed with guke to keep them from leaking. If these would be better in that regard cool, otherwise they're kind of fugly IMO. Might have to swap them out with my '94 chrome wheels.

[Cadillac Jim]

The chrome wheels that I've seen (mine) don't have chrome plating extending past the rim, much less down to the bead. If you have chrome down on the bead, perhaps these wheels were painted wheels that someone had chrome plated. Or not; just a thought.

[epricedright]

We bought the Caddy. Rides and drives better than my '02. A few codes, pretty sure nothing major. I looked up a few, I'll post them tomorrow....I'm beat!

[KHE]

I don't want to rain on the parade but if the test fluid changes color doesn't that mean that exhaust is getting in to the coolant???

There are only two pins to jump - don't worry about damaging anything. My '05 Deville has an intermittent coolant level sensor - the message comes up on the dash about once evert 6 months so I don't worry too much about it - when it occurs more frequently, I'll replace it.

The standard aluminum rims on my '05 Deville and have the chrome rims on the '97 STS. While the chrome rims look very nice, it is not worth the hassle when they peel and the tire bead leaks... I NEVER had a tire leak at the bead until aluminum rims became the standard....

[rockfangd]

glad it worked out.

Rims.

I have had my best luck with the alloy rims.

The ones over year 2000 with chrome seem to peel and flake terribly.

My 97 Seville has the chrome rims and they are in perfect condition.

[epricedright]

Dead tired but can’t sleep….what’s new.

Kevin, the block testing fluid didn’t change colors. I was replying to Mike’s post confirming that the block tester I had on hand was the TYPE that changed colors. At the time of that post (#8) I hadn’t yet seen the car nor tested the coolant.

Here’s what we bought: 2003 Deville (base) 122,500 miles. Color: White Diamond. Interior/exterior is in excellent condition minus 1 ding on roof (hail or golf ball), zero door dings. Runs and drives great. So far I see it needs new front brake rotors, coolant reservoir + cap. Sell price $3750

Service history: May 2012 @ dealership – new water pump & belt, coolant flush, new blower motor, new driver door window regulator, new air filter & pollen filter. Total cost $1549….yikes! And that was with a 10% discount. October 2012 – 4 New Goodyear Integrity tires $489. Just noticing the owner’s manual has the record of maintenance since new written in. Looks like I’m the 3^rd owner. Looks like the oil was changed regularly but don’t see any record of coolant changes. How could that be? Did he not write it in there? Daggumm!

I tested the coolant for 10 minutes with the engine warm and running and the test fluid color stayed blue - good. But the coolant was low, 4”-5" or so below the neck so that concerns me. The owner had the water pump replaced and the coolant flushed in May 2012. He took it in because there was a puddle of coolant in his driveway. Three weeks after the repair, the Check Coolant Level light came on so he took it back to the dealership and they advised it was the sensor in the coolant reservoir. Estimate was $324 for the reservoir - he opted to not do the repair. He has supposedly not had to add coolant since the repair and it supposedly has never overheated in the 2 years he’s owned it. I say supposedly because I don’t know the seller but he seemed like an honest guy (State Farm insurance agent). He had the oil changed in Jan. 2013 but doesn’t know if the coolant was checked and/or topped off. So Joeb, maybe you were right. LOL I’m thinking there’s still a sensor issue - will know tomorrow after I top the coolant off and jump the coolant level sensor pins.

Here are the DTC’s. Please confirm I deciphered these correctly and whether or not they need to be addressed.

DDM U1713 History - Loss of Front Door Module to Window Motor High Speed Comm

IPM B0249 History – “Mode Door Actuator”? I tested the vents and all seemed to work when called for.

IPM B0429 Current - Quote from Ranger: “B0429 is the auxiliary temperature (rear) actuator. It is not in the commanded position. It does not have to be off by much to set the DTC. Unless you are having trouble with the rear temperature control, fagitaboutit.”

IPM U1016 History – Loss of communication code?

MSM B1845 Current - Driver lumbar circuit malfunction (seat adjustments - exercise the seat in all planes). I believe (?) the lumbar adjustment is not working.

MSM U1305 History - Memory Seat Module - Class 2 Data Link Low or High?

MSM U1164 History - Memory Seat Module - Loss Of DIM Serial Data Communication

C1287 ABS History - Steering Sensor Rate Malfunction (steering position sensor) – this is one I’m worried about. I didn’t copy this 1 down correctly so I didn’t look this one up before buying/negotiating. Pffftt.

Quote from Cady_Guy: “I had this once with my 02 STS. Yes, it's at the bottom of the steering shaft. If you look underneath the dash, almost near the firewall, you'll see a white round sensor that fits over the steering shaft. It's about 3 inches across. You should be seeing a "Service Stability System" message too. I got that message when I had that code. The sensor is inexpensive, but a pain to replace. You won't notice any difference in steering, but when you have that code, your stabilitrak will not be engaged.”

Quote from OnyxSTS: “Steering wheels sensor failures are common problems with these cars and they usually fail around 60-80,000 miles depending on how much turning you have done over the years.... and yes the steering sensor can trigger all kinds of other codes... When the BCM sees a bad sensor it turns off the Stability control system and this can trigger codes in the EBCM. Replace the Steering sensor, clear the codes and work from there. Understand that you will almost NEVER see a "current" C1287... The way that the BCM tests this sensor is that the second it finds a fault, it turns off the Stability system and places the c1287 in history... if you have c1287 in history (or ever had) then the Steering sensor is done.”

The labor to replace that steering position sensor might be over my head. Still not sure what all is involved. What did I get myself into??? Any idea what the labor should run for this? And I sure hope this car doesn’t have a coolant loss or head gasket issue.

To be honest, we were getting desperate. My 20 year old son totaled his Pathfinder a month ago and him working and being without wheels has been driving him AND us nuts! Luckily he was paid $5300 for his $2800 Pathfinder, but clean Caddies are hard to come by here for some reason - my wife and I have been searching 24/7. Never again will I look for a car at tax time. Sad thing is he’s already in LOVE with it, but we’ll sell it if necessary….I guess.

p.s. We like the alloy rims - look much nicer in person. Being they don't leak, if we sell the '03 we may just swap those out with a set of my chromes.

[BodybyFisher]

Good for you and good luck with the car! I am glad you are getting some steel around your 20 year old!

[Logan]

Simple 2 wire sensor at the bottom of the tank. I don't think the level sensor can be replaced alone...you have to replace the tank. Or...a jumper installed on the harness side should turn off the IPC message and you can keep an eye on the level manually. Pretty common issue.

[Cadillac Jim]

Uh, mine is a 1997 too, as my display name says, a 1997 ETC. The avatar is a fish-eye photo taken about six inches from the logo in front of the grille. The signature photo is an extreme wide-angle shot from about two feet from the left headlight.

[epricedright]

Thanks Mike and Logan. Rough day today so not going to be able to mess with the Caddy tonight.

Can anyone help with the C1287 code? Could someone please possibly post the FSM R&R instructions for the Steering Position Sensor? Guesstimate for labor cost to do the job? And what does Stabilitrack do exactly? Wonder why I'm not getting the "Service Stability System" message? Does the '03 base even have a "Stability System"?

[Cadillac Jim]

C1287 Steering Sensor Rate Malfunction

I have a 1997 model year FSM that has a write-up on C1287 that is probably accurate for the 2003 Deville. You shouldn't get this code unless you have electronic stability control, although I'm not sure about that. The reason that I say that is that the C1287 code is included in the FSM section on ABS/TCS/ICCS (ICCS is the Integrated Chassis Control System, which is the term the FSM uses for electronic stability control, which appears in the owner's manuals and advertising literature as Stabilitrak) but it does not appear in the section on ABS/TCS without ICCS. Although electronic stabilization first appeared on non-Corvettes in the mid 1990's, it was standard on the STS and ETC in 1997. Insurance company statistics revealed that electronic stability control saved more lives than seat belts and air bags combined, and when this became obvious about the year 2000, people began putting it on everything. Electronic stability control will be required on all vehicles very soon if it's not already,, like seat belts, air bags, and functional bumpers.

The 1997 FSM, pages 5E2-182 through 5E2-184 covers DTC C1287. The section begins by stating the C1287 is usually set by "an intermittent malfunction," i.e. a wiring problem. So, first, check the connectors and the wiring harness for problems and correct any you find before you take anything apart. Then reset the codes and see if it comes back.

The specifics of the 1987 models may not apply to the 2003 model year. What I do have is that the steering whel position sensor, or SWPS, has two wires going to the EBTCM (LT GRN and LT BLU) and three wires going to the CVRSS module in the rear of the car (GRY, LT BLU, and ORN/BLK). The wires to the EBTCM convey a very accurate steering wheel position through two signal lines labeled Phase A and Phase B. The code C1287 is set when the steer rate exceeds a reasonable limit that is stored in the EBTCM software. The code will clear itself if the fault is not detected for a long time. The EBTCM counts the number of times the car is started without the fault being detected, and when the car has been started 50 times with no problems, the EBTCM clears the code.

The FSM begins by saying that it is important to know what the driver was doing when the code was set (this is when the STABILITY REDUCED message is displayed). If you can do the same thing and set the code again, this can help diagnose the problem.

A second warning to check the wiring and connectors before starting repairs is the second major note on C1287. It is followed by yet another warning that the code can be caused by "a poor connection, rubbed through wire insulation, or a wire that is broken inside the insulation."

There is a troubleshooting chart for C1287. It begins by saying that if C1251, C1282, C1283, C1284, or C1285 are set, fix those problems first. These other codes indicate problems in the RSS or in other sensors that can cause the EBTCM to set C1287 without a problem in the steering rate sensor or its wiring. Then it says to fix problems indicated by C1780 or C1781 first. Next, the SWPS is checked by turning the key off, centering the steering, starting the engine, and turning the wheel left and right while monitoring SWPS Phase A and Phase B; that's hard to do without a Tech II but you can reset the code and do this, watching for the STABILITY REDUCED message instead). Then, amazingly, it says to "Wiggle the CKT 1764 (LT GRN and LT BLU wires between the SWPS and EBTCM) wiring harness at the EBTCM and the SWPS connectors" and see if that sets the code. I would start with this.

Only if all the wiring checks out and the SWPS check fails does it say to replace the SWPS.

[epricedright]

Thanks Jim! I guess the 1st thing I need to do is check with a dealership parts dept and have them run my VIN to see if I even have the StabiliTrak 2.0. According to Edmunds.com, it was an option on both the 2002 & 2003 Base and DHS Devilles, and standard on the DTS. And if I don't have StabiliTrak, then maybe I could perhaps ignore the code??? I also need to clear the codes and see if it comes back. I would really like a 2002 or 2003 FSM but haven't been able to locate one. Helms was OOS for the 2002 last time I checked. I'm thinking the '97 ETC might be different. I don't think my Devilles have the ICCS and I know the CVRSS came on the DTS, which was one reason I steered clear of the DTS.....more things to break and very expensive to repair, especially the struts/shocks.

[Cadillac Jim]

Someone with a 2002 FSM can tell you the option code for Stabilitrak and also tell you where the option sheet sticker is on your car and you could check that way. But since you do get the C1287 you very liklely do have Stabilitrak. In fact, you can't get the STABILITY REDUCED message unless you have Stabilitrak because without it, there is no stability to be reduced.

[adallak]

Those sensors are known to "get stuck". I hit the reservoir from time to time and it helps. No kidding.

[epricedright]

Someone with a 2002 FSM can tell you the option code for Stabilitrak and also tell you where the option sheet sticker is on your car and you could check that way. But since you do get the C1287 you very liklely do have Stabilitrak. In fact, you can't get the STABILITY REDUCED message unless you have Stabilitrak because without it, there is no stability to be reduced.

Jim, I don't get the "STABILITY REDUCED" message. I don't get any messages referring to stability. The only message I get is the CHECK COOLANT LEVEL message.

I cleared the codes today and drove it a couple miles and the C1287 did not come come back. Were gonna keep driving it and keep an eye on the codes.