Huge Oil Leak

[newbold1]

My daughter's 1996 Cadillac DeVille has a huge oil leak. Everything else about the car is in good working order. The car runs just fine. However, I have to add oil like crazy. This isn't a situation of a quart of oil every 1,000 miles. Instead, I can add 2-3 quarts of oil and in about 1 week it will be all over the driveway under the car. We're talking about a big wet puddle about 3 feet in diameter. When I add oil the low oil indicator light will be back on in about 3 days.

When I would add the recommended oil the oil pressure light never went off. I've been using 15w40 and that works for a while but again in about 3 days that oil is on the driveway instead of in the car.

So... clearly I have to get this fixed. It's a waste of $10 of oil or more per week plus it is making a mess.

Am I right in thinking that this is going to entail replacement of the case half seals? And, in that case, do you all have any ideas as to what I can expect that this job is going to cost me? I am worried it will be very expensive.

[JimD]

It would be good to identify the source of the leak as accurately as possible.

You might find something as simple as a loose/damaged oil filter, or leaking oil filter adapter O rings, or leaking oil cooler plumbing fittings (if equiped).

[Ranger]

I agree with Jim. Check it out closely first. There are many cheap and easy possibilities. If it IS the halfcase or pan, it WILL be expensive.

[newbold1]

I am going to take it to the shop to be checked out. Everything on the underside is wet with oil and I can't tell where it may be coming from. I also don't have the right equipment to really get up under the car the way I need to be able to in order to see what I am doing under there. Just some ramps that only give me about 18 inches of room under there at best.

I have my fingers crossed that they'll find a less costly problem / solution. But, in the worst case scenario, if it is the case half seals or pan do you have any ballpark idea as to the cost that will likely be involved? Are we talking $2,000 or $3,000 or even worse? I don't have any idea at this point and want to be at least somewhat prepared.

[growe3]

With the amount of oil leakage that you describe, the leak source should be obvious; the fix maybe not so.

1. A common source for fast a oil leak are the oil cooler line connections; they can get a little loose over time and/or the O-rings shrink.

Find the connections and snug them down; do not over tighten them. If the connections are tight and still leaking, unscrew them and replace the O-rings.

2. A loose oil filter.

Using an oil filter wrench, snug the filter down.

3. A loose oil filter adapter and/or connector lines.

Check the bolts and lines for tightness. If lines are tight and still leak, replace the O-rings.

4. Oil level sensor loose to the oil pan loose or leaking.

Tighten or replace as required.

5. Impact damage to the oil pan.

Fix as required.

6. A loose oil pan drain plug.

Check for tightness; do not over tighten.

A half-case leak seldom loses much oil, just annoying, but it does help in preventing corrosion under the car .

-George

[KHE]

Put the car up on ramps and then let the engine idle while you look under the car at the points growe3 mentioned. The source of the leak should be obvious.

[95SevilleSLS]

One time I was putting an oil filter back on my dad's ford and forgot to check if the o-ring on the filter was still on the filter and I put the new one on. Next thing you know, oil is leaking everywhere. Oops! I guess two O-rings DON'T seal better than one!

[newbold1]

The Caddy dealership checked out the car and of course they found that it was leaking oil like crazy out of several locations. The oil pressure switch was leaking badly and they said it was probably shorting at as well since it was totally saturated. The case half seal was leaking in several locations. They cleaned the underbody of the car and added dye to find the leaks. They said that when they topped off the oil they found that the dye was totally unnecessary because they found the leaks immediately.

Okay, so they're going to replace two switches, I don't even know which at this point. I think the oil pressure sensor and the oil level indicator. And, they're going to pull the engine to replace all of the seals. Grand total... $3,022.78 for parts, labor, and tax. YIKES!

They did say that the the engine seemed to be in really good condition though. It runs strong, starts right up, doesn't smoke, doesn't stutter or hesitate, and idles steady and smooth. It's pretty incredible that these motors can last so long. Most engines would be junk by 175K miles. With the seals repaired maybe we can get a lot more life out of this car. I'll be pretty happy if we get about 40K more miles. I've seen a lot of Caddys with more than 215K miles so I think it's a very realistic expectation. I hope so because I'd like to think that we'll get enough miles out of the car to make it worth the expense.

Hopefully, this will be the most expensive repair by far that we'll have to do going forward.

[growe3]

The oil pressure sensor and oil level indicator were two of my concerns, both easily replaceable with the engine in the car; perhaps one hour labor.

The only reason to remove the engine, would likely be the oil pan and/or half-case seals; both are minor leak source.

-George

[jking220]

The oil pressure sensor and oil level indicator were two of my concerns, both easily replaceable with the engine in the car; perhaps one hour labor.

The only reason to remove the engine, would likely be the oil pan and/or half-case seals; both are minor leak source.

-George

Yea, sounds like the dealership is drumming up business. I would have replaced the sensors myself and kept adding oil with the half case leak. Do you know how much oil you can buy for 3 grand? Rough math give me about 1250-1500 quarts. It would have to be dumping oil to loose that much in the 40k miles you plan to keep the car.

Ive seen 98-2000 STSs and Eldos for 4 grand or less around here, with 100k-140k miles on them. If I had 3 grand I wanted to spend, Ide look for a newer car.

[KHE]

I would just have them replace the sensors and then re-evaluate the leak.

[newbold1]

I suppose they could be lying to me but what they had said was that high up on the backside of the engine there is a lot of leakage occuring and in very large quantities. I have to say that when I had put the car on ramps and looked under there with a flashlight there was oil everywhere and not just where the sensors are located. I had a slow leak in my 1996 SLS but it was nothing like this disaster.

I can deal with an occasional drip. But, in this case my driveway is a big mess. I plan to have the driveway resealed soon but don't want to do it until the car is fixed so I don't just end up with it all messed up again.

The dealership offered to show me the leaks and how bad they are while the car is up on the lift. I didn't ask, they just offered and said that I'd probably be able to see the issues they are seeing right away. Like I experienced, they said that when they top off the oil it just about comes pouring out from above the oil pan higher up. They said it was easy to see and is pretty bad.

The cost to fix everything is just over $3K. The cost to do both sensors was about $500. BUT, if I just do those and then still end up doing the other repair it will be over $2,800 to do it plus the $500 already paid. Basically, they said that they would discount the labor to do it all at once. The oil level sensor I can easily do myself. The oil pressure sensor I don't think I can do. It seems very hard to get at and without being able to get the car high enough off of the ground I can't get to it very well. There is some bar in the way too which I guess you either figure out how to work around or remove somehow. I couldn't really tell for certain.

Honestly, if I were to look under the car while it was on the lift I wouldn't know what I was looking at and they could just about tell me anything they wanted. I'm by no means knowledgable about auto mechanics.

I've thought about dumping this car but I've already done a lot to clean it up / fix it up. Maybe I'm crazy but I am just hoping that this is the final thing to do and then we'll have a car that should be in good working order for at least several years with maybe only some minor issues now and then. I hate to start all over with another used car that ends up needing a bunch of different work in itself. Aside from this one costly issue, the car has been pretty decent. We've driven it around a lot in the last few weeks and it runs great.

There's just this stupid oil problem. Not to mention my wife is really unhappy to see the mess in the driveway.

[navion]

A lot of us have had to deal with the case half leaking. I'll add my vote and suggest that you just replace the sensors and then see how much leakageremains. At road speed any oil leaking from the sensors is going to get whipped around and make the case half seals look like they are pouring oil out.

I too had a small puddle of oil in the garage floor where I parked my 94 SLS. It would leak out or use about two to three quarts in between oil changes.

As the car was worth almost what the case half reseal would cost, I decided to live with it.

One thing that I did do, was to change to Pennzoil High Mileage Vehicle 10W30 oil.

I know that it DID help reduce the amount of oil leaking out of the case halfs. It decreased the leakage by about two thirds or more. Some people expressed disdain for this kind of oil. But I know that, while it didn't stop tle leak, It slowed it down considerably.

It is your car and your money. If I were you, I would hesitate for quite a while before I dropped that amount of change on a reseal.

Good Luck,

Britt

[winterset]

Not to disclaim the dealer, but of course he would say it's a good engine - especially if he wants your $$. What else will he say - it's a 12 year old car, anything can go wrong with the engine, but you should still let me fix the oil leak for 3k?

[newbold1]

Also, I didn't mention it but I had switched to 15w40 oil hoping that was going to help. I was surprised that when I told the dealership that I was using this oil they said that they agreed that it was probably a good idea and would be good for an older engine. I've seen that discussed on this board with varying opinions. I had expected the dealership to reprimand me and tell me that I should only use the recommended oil. But, instead they agreed with what many people on this board have said which is to use the heavier weight oil.

Anyway, I thought I would mention that since I didn't expect them to agree. They suggested I keep right on using the 15w40.

[KHE]

You said the oil leak was high up on the back side of the engine. I take that to mean toward the firewall (passenger compartment). If that is correct, I would not suspect the case half... the case half seal is halfway down the engine, not high up. Could it be a cam cover (valve cover) gasket that is leaking? If so, that is far cheaper than a case half seal R&R... There are power steering lines in that vicinity also - have they checked those for leaks?

I would get this clarified before authorizing them to do any work. Case half seals rarely leak like what you describe. If the dealer is adament that it is the case half seal and oil pan gasket, get it in writing that you are paying to cure the oil leak for their quoted price. Otherwise, they'll want to charge you more money to fix what they didn't fix the first time.

Sorry is I sound skeptical but this does NOT sound like a case half seal issue to me and I would hate to see you spend a huge sum of money for nothing.

[newbold1]

You said the oil leak was high up on the back side of the engine. I take that to mean toward the firewall (passenger compartment). If that is correct, I would not suspect the case half... the case half seal is halfway down the engine, not high up. Could it be a cam cover (valve cover) gasket that is leaking? If so, that is far cheaper than a case half seal R&R... There are power steering lines in that vicinity also - have they checked those for leaks?

I would get this clarified before authorizing them to do any work. Case half seals rarely leak like what you describe. If the dealer is adament that it is the case half seal and oil pan gasket, get it in writing that you are paying to cure the oil leak for their quoted price. Otherwise, they'll want to charge you more money to fix what they didn't fix the first time.

Sorry is I sound skeptical but this does NOT sound like a case half seal issue to me and I would hate to see you spend a huge sum of money for nothing.

Good point. I didn't see it myself they told me that it was leaking from high up and yes toward the firewall. Now... how high up I really don't know. Did that mean 6 inches up, 18 inches up, more? I really don't know. In any case, they haven't started doing the work just yet and I like the idea of getting them to make it "official" that I am paying them to completely stop the oil leakage for this amount of money regardless or where it is coming from since that is their job to figure out and not mine.

I am reluctant but willing to pay the money to put this problem to bed. However, I will be really ticked off if the problem isn't 100% resolved for this chunk of change. I've never sued anyone before but I would have to really consider filing a small claims case if this doesn't fix the problem and they expect to charge me any further to do so.

[newbold1]

Okay, I know most of you will think I am crazy but I went ahead and did the case half seals and sensor replacements in order to get the oil problem behind me at once.

Yes, it was an expensive job at $3,021.63 including the tax. But, it's done. I've had the car back a few days now and there hasn't been a single new drop of oil on the driveway. I parked in a clean area to be certain.

Here is what was done / replaced:

12603784 --- Oil Level Sensor (easy job I could have just done myself... but only about $10 more to have them do it)

12571721 --- Oil Pressure Switch (hard for me to get to it)

12085539 --- Oil Pressure Switch Connector

1647308 --- Rear Oil Seal

89017342 --- Oil Filter

12561075 --- 8 Bolts (0.669)

10472920 --- Seal CR/S

25534689 --- Seal

3543719 --- 2 Oil Cooler Adapter Gaskets

12581822 --- Manifold

1647311 --- Camshaft & Timing Front Cover Seal

1647185 --- Camshaft & Timing Front Cover Gasket

12378521 --- 2 Oil Pan Sealant

3542310 --- 19 Bolts / SCRE (8.900)

3542311 --- Stud / LWR

11562588 --- Plug 1.453

12562046 --- 2 Water Pump Gaskets - Lower

12562047 --- 2 Water Pump Gaskets - Upper

12600020 --- Water Pump Cover Gasket

12346290 --- Coolant

They replaced the oil with 8.0 quarts of Pennzoil 15w40. Not sure if they actually used 7.5 quarts and charge by the quart or what but the invoice says 8.0 quarts.

Parts was $531.12, labor was $2,170.00, the oil was $39.68, environmental fee was $25.00, and finally tax which came to $255.83.

I hadn't even though of it but there was a recall that hadn't been done on this car. The invoice shows that they replaced the fuel rail and seal under warranty with no charge since it's a recall item.

I thought that since I went ahead and had the job done that I would post these details in case they might be helpful to someone else that may be considering whether or not to have this work done and what it will cost.

[navion]

Okay, I know most of you will think I am crazy but I went ahead and did the case half seals and sensor replacements in order to get the oil problem behind me at once.

Yes, it was an expensive job at $3,021.63 including the tax. But, it's done. I've had the car back a few days now and there hasn't been a single new drop of oil on the driveway. I parked in a clean area to be certain.

Here is what was done / replaced:

12603784 --- Oil Level Sensor (easy job I could have just done myself... but only about $10 more to have them do it)

12571721 --- Oil Pressure Switch (hard for me to get to it)

12085539 --- Oil Pressure Switch Connector

1647308 --- Rear Oil Seal

89017342 --- Oil Filter

12561075 --- 8 Bolts (0.669)

10472920 --- Seal CR/S

25534689 --- Seal

3543719 --- 2 Oil Cooler Adapter Gaskets

12581822 --- Manifold

1647311 --- Camshaft & Timing Front Cover Seal

1647185 --- Camshaft & Timing Front Cover Gasket

12378521 --- 2 Oil Pan Sealant

3542310 --- 19 Bolts / SCRE (8.900)

3542311 --- Stud / LWR

11562588 --- Plug 1.453

12562046 --- 2 Water Pump Gaskets - Lower

12562047 --- 2 Water Pump Gaskets - Upper

12600020 --- Water Pump Cover Gasket

12346290 --- Coolant

They replaced the oil with 8.0 quarts of Pennzoil 15w40. Not sure if they actually used 7.5 quarts and charge by the quart or what but the invoice says 8.0 quarts.

Parts was $531.12, labor was $2,170.00, the oil was $39.68, environmental fee was $25.00, and finally tax which came to $255.83.

I hadn't even though of it but there was a recall that hadn't been done on this car. The invoice shows that they replaced the fuel rail and seal under warranty with no charge since it's a recall item.

I thought that since I went ahead and had the job done that I would post these details in case they might be helpful to someone else that may be considering whether or not to have this work done and what it will cost.

WoW! $4.98 a quart for Pennzoil!! And an environmental fee on top of that! WHAT pray tell is the environmental fee for? Is the environmental fee something peculiar to Nashville?

I don't see any listing for main bearings. It is too late now, but I would never do that job without replacing the mains!

I hope that you get your money's worth of usage.

Good Luck,

I know that you feel that your daughter is much safer in a substantial car.

Britt

[Bruce Nunnally]

Glad the repair went well. Thanks for posting all the details and part numbers.

[BodybyFisher]

You are lucky that your fuel rail did not burst. That recall took place quite some time ago.

I am still surprised that they did not replace the main bearings. This was a Cadillac dealer?

I am glad you are happy with the repair, Mike

[newbold1]

Okay, I know most of you will think I am crazy but I went ahead and did the case half seals and sensor replacements in order to get the oil problem behind me at once.

Yes, it was an expensive job at $3,021.63 including the tax. But, it's done. I've had the car back a few days now and there hasn't been a single new drop of oil on the driveway. I parked in a clean area to be certain.

Here is what was done / replaced:

12603784 --- Oil Level Sensor (easy job I could have just done myself... but only about $10 more to have them do it)

12571721 --- Oil Pressure Switch (hard for me to get to it)

12085539 --- Oil Pressure Switch Connector

1647308 --- Rear Oil Seal

89017342 --- Oil Filter

12561075 --- 8 Bolts (0.669)

10472920 --- Seal CR/S

25534689 --- Seal

3543719 --- 2 Oil Cooler Adapter Gaskets

12581822 --- Manifold

1647311 --- Camshaft & Timing Front Cover Seal

1647185 --- Camshaft & Timing Front Cover Gasket

12378521 --- 2 Oil Pan Sealant

3542310 --- 19 Bolts / SCRE (8.900)

3542311 --- Stud / LWR

11562588 --- Plug 1.453

12562046 --- 2 Water Pump Gaskets - Lower

12562047 --- 2 Water Pump Gaskets - Upper

12600020 --- Water Pump Cover Gasket

12346290 --- Coolant

They replaced the oil with 8.0 quarts of Pennzoil 15w40. Not sure if they actually used 7.5 quarts and charge by the quart or what but the invoice says 8.0 quarts.

Parts was $531.12, labor was $2,170.00, the oil was $39.68, environmental fee was $25.00, and finally tax which came to $255.83.

I hadn't even though of it but there was a recall that hadn't been done on this car. The invoice shows that they replaced the fuel rail and seal under warranty with no charge since it's a recall item.

I thought that since I went ahead and had the job done that I would post these details in case they might be helpful to someone else that may be considering whether or not to have this work done and what it will cost.

WoW! $4.98 a quart for Pennzoil!! And an environmental fee on top of that! WHAT pray tell is the environmental fee for? Is the environmental fee something peculiar to Nashville?

I don't see any listing for main bearings. It is too late now, but I would never do that job without replacing the mains!

I hope that you get your money's worth of usage.

Good Luck,

I know that you feel that your daughter is much safer in a substantial car.

Britt

I wish I knew to ask about replacing the mains before the work was done. I just don't know enough about the mechanics to be aware of these things. I honestly couldn't tell you what the mian bearings are without someone describing them to me in greater detail. Had they been done with this job what would that have likely added to the price? Just curious.

Beats me what the environmental fee was for. The Pennzoil price did seem high. I can get a gallon jug at Wal-Mart for about $10.00 or so. Really, I sort of expect these things though because they pretty much have me over a barrell since I couldn't hope to do the other work on my own. I can do a few simpler things like the oil change itself and chaning the oil level sensor which is real easy. But, the big jobs are way too involved for me and I probably don't own half the equipment that I would have needed in order to even attempt it.

I did do a couple things myself right after we got the car:

1. I replaced both front wheel hubs (was growling but now nice and quiet).

2. I replaced all four rotors and brake pads all around.

I've put 4 new Michelin Symmetry tires on and had a 4-wheel alignment done. And, now the case half seals and those sensors replaced. All that is left is to diagnose why the A/C is running at only a just barely acceptable level. Once that is resolved I think we will have a really nice and fixed up car. Maybe its just nostalgic of me but I really like the car and the fact that my daughter does too. Otherwise, I probably wouldn't put this kind of money into it. I like to think that I have taken a car that would have probably been discarded and/or salvaged for parts and turned it back into a daily driver that will be LOVED by my daughter for at least several years.

[BodybyFisher]

Also, I didn't mention it but I had switched to 15w40 oil hoping that was going to help. I was surprised that when I told the dealership that I was using this oil they said that they agreed that it was probably a good idea and would be good for an older engine. I've seen that discussed on this board with varying opinions. I had expected the dealership to reprimand me and tell me that I should only use the recommended oil. But, instead they agreed with what many people on this board have said which is to use the heavier weight oil.

Anyway, I thought I would mention that since I didn't expect them to agree. They suggested I keep right on using the 15w40.

Thanks for confirming that

[Texas Jim]

Britt,

We have the enviromental fees down here in Texas also.

Anytime you get your oil changed... they tack on about $5 bucks for the enviromental fee.

I think it is suppesed to help pay for the disposal of the old oil... or something like that.

What it REALLY IS ... is just another way for the darn state to tax you.

But without actually calling it a tax.

[MAC]

Britt,

We have the enviromental fees down here in Texas also.

Anytime you get your oil changed... they tack on about $5 bucks for the enviromental fee.

I think it is suppesed to help pay for the disposal of the old oil... or something like that.

What it REALLY IS ... is just another way for the darn state to tax you.

But without actually calling it a tax.

The used oil is being recycled and sold as heating oil--at least this is what I was told when I dropped off some oil at my local auto parts store.