Warren.... what happened with Ms. Baby?

[KHE]

Mike,

Taking into account you are 6'5" how did you feel in an Eldo? As far as I know there is less headromm there compared to Deville.

Fit like a glove! No sun roof however that gives a little more room I believe. Warren is quite tall also... Plenty of room, I loved the cockpit feel..

The sunroof will reduce the headroom by about 2".

[jgr7]

WD-40 will also remove that kind of adhesive or road tar/bugs or just about anything else that gets stuck on your car. It also works on those labels that stores put on everything.

Your new Eldorado looks very nice.

Jeff

[JasonA]

Warren, I've been gone for a while. I noticed your RIP signature photo and immediately went searching through the forum to find out what happened. With horror I saw your beautiful Eldorado up in flames. I know how much you loved that car, and how perfect it was. My feelings for mine are very similar. I can't fathom not having it.

Your new Eldorado is gorgeous. I'm sure you'll have a blast getting to know your new car, although none will live up to Baby I'm sure.

Mike, you really outta consider an Eldorado or an SLS. Either one will have the "tightness" of a smaller chassis, but still have the "comfort" of a DeVille because of the soft-ride suspension. I think they're the perfect blend of sport, style, class, and comfort. I like the "like a glove" analogy -- that's really how my SLS fits me (230 lbs, 6' tall). The steering wheel comes instantly to hand. The shifter is right there on the console when needed. There's just enough side bolstering for freeway on-ramps, but not enough to be confining.

[BodybyFisher]

I need to do some work to my car and I will sell it and pick up a Seville or Eldorado. I do like the Eldorado a lot, its a very sexy car. Does the Seville have the same front bucket seat configuration?

I like the rear of the Eldorado, it looks like bucket seats also. I am hoping that I can get $5000 for my car considering all the work I have done. Having done a search, I think you got lucky Warren, with that condition and mileage, thanks to Ted.

By the way Warren, for tints, call Al at Smithtown Auto Trim he does all of King O'Rourke's work 631-265-4699. That car will look very nice with tints...

[Ranger]

Does the Seville have the same front bucket seat configuration?

Yup.

[BodybyFisher]

Does the Seville have the same front bucket seat configuration?

Yup.

Thanks Ranger

I was thinking that I might pay a premium for the Eldorado, given its discontinued and its a 2 door car and rare... what do you guys think..?

[ted tcb]

Up this way, a lot of people have unrealistic expectations when listing their Eldo's.

Nice cars, but basically shouldn't command a premium over the near identical STS.

Before you decide on an Eldo or pre 1998 STS, you really should treat yourself to a

drive in the '98-04 STS. The newer platform definitely benefits from advancements

in computer aided design ... the difference in ride quality and overall NVH levels

really is astounding.

[WarrenJ]

Having done a search, I think you got lucky Warren, with that condition and mileage, thanks to Ted.

By the way Warren, for tints, call Al at Smithtown Auto Trim he does all of King O'Rourke's work 631-265-4699. That car will look very nice with tints...

I agree Mike. I think I "got lucky." I can't for the life of me guess why they lowered the price last Wednesday. When I looked it over that morning the salesman told me a fellow was driving down from Taxachusetts to look at it in the afternoon. Needless to say, he was destined for disappointment (if, indeed, he did show up). I hope he wasn't "one of us!"

The dealer took delivery of the car on August 18, so it's not as though it was growing roots on his lot. And yes, Ted remains my current hero.

And Helm Inc. cooperated nicely as well! I guess the stars were aligned for me! Just a turn of phrase; please don't think I give credence to that silliness.

Thanks for the TINT recommendation; much appreciated. I dreaded doing the research necessary to find a competent installer. The adults at work are untinted and as for the children, well . . . . they think any bolt-on or glue-on from J. C. Whitney is just "rad."

Then again, the children don't put the toilet seat up when they pee.

Regards,

Warren

-Converting DeVille owners . . . .

[BodybyFisher]

I will check out a 1998 STS then, from the brief searching I have done, the STS is cheaper than the ETC.. I think the ETC can command more do to it being discontinued. Not a lot of Eldos available either compared to Sevilles..

I do like that back seat in the Eldo (not that I would ever ride back there, LOL). I have to admit, I like the Eldorado however, did the Eldorado platform change in 1998?

I found out tonight that my friend Frank bought a 95 Eldorado, he is going to join caddyinfo soon. He has a few codes some current, so we will need to help him. Remind me to smack him for not consulting me before he bought it...LOL.... maybe he didnt know I was a cadillac nut?

[WarrenJ]

I do like that back seat in the Eldo (not that I would ever ride back there, LOL). I have to admit, I like the Eldorado however, did the Eldorado platform change in 1998?

The chassis change (and interior change) I'm sure, began in '96.

You drove the last body/chassis edition if I'm correct.

Things like a rear armrest trunk pass-thru were added later.

Regards,

Warren

[WarrenJ]

Up this way, a lot of people have unrealistic expectations when listing their Eldo's.

Nice cars, but basically shouldn't command a premium over the near identical STS.

BbF commented on this also. That surprised me. During extensive searches (WHEW!) I found the Sevilles commanding higher prices overall.

Sevilles seemed about 5%-7% higher.

Regards and THANKS, hero,

Warren

-Converting DeVille . . . .

[WarrenJ]

I found out tonight that my friend Frank bought a 95 Eldorado, he is going to join caddyinfo soon. He has a few codes some current, so we will need to help him. Remind me to smack him for not consulting me before he bought it...LOL.... maybe he didnt know I was a cadillac nut?

Smack 'Frank' twice and ask him to let you drive it.

Okay wait! Ask him to let you drive it and THEN smack him twice.

Priorities.

You'll see the handling difference I spoke to you about.

Regards,

Warren

[Cadillac Jim]

The Eldorado has never been as popular as the Seville. According to the Cadillac History page, 42,117 Sevilles were sold in 1997 versus 18,102 Eldorados; there is not breakdown between VIN Y and VIN 9.

The shipping weight for the STS was 3960 pounds versus 3876 pounds for the ETC. The wheelbase for the 1997 STS is 111 inches versus 108 inches for the Eldorado, an adjustment needed to keep the weight distribution between the front and rear wheels due to the fact that the 83 pounds was saved entirely from the rear part of the car. They were otherwise identical except for three inches less legroom in the rear and the unique rear-end treatment of the Eldorado, and the Eldorado is a two-door hardtop (a convertable conversion VIN Y Eldorado was available through the dealers in 1997) while the STS is a four-door sedan. This is the E/K (Eldorado/Kadillac?) platform. In 1998, the Seville went to the A platform (Aurora?) but the Eldorado was built on the E platform as long as they made it.

According to Car and Driver tests at the time, the 0-60 times were 6.3 seconds for the ETC versus 6.7 seconds for the STS. So, the curb weight difference may be more than the 83 pounds difference in shipping weight indicated by the tables from the Cadillac History page. That few tenths of a second was the reason that I had no interest in the STS relative to the ETC.

The Eldorado was intended as a "personal car" in the vein of the other two-doors of the times such as the Thunderbird. These cars were really 2+2 two-doors, usually hardtops, and the back seat was really an afterthought for occasional use for short trips. This was the original concept for the sports sedan in the 1960's and 1970's. It was never a mainstream thing and the 1992-2003 Eldorado was probably the most successful of them. However, due to the fact that it was a two-door and the very short leg room in the back seat, it was never in demand in the 1990's and 2000's. That's why they never developed a coupe version of the A platform. That's why the resale price of the Eldorados is slightly less than that of an otherwise equivalent Seville.

Some people, usually individualists, like a personal car, or even a two-seater. I was trying to buy a 1998 Corvette when I bought my ETC. An unusually high number of gentleman individualists are regulars on this board, and there does seem to be a ground swell of demand for Eldorados. This is not a megatrend, so you probably won't see a price spike on used Eldorados. However, it is my observation that many people who buy an Eldorado hang on to it. Many-owner Eldorados are probably the exception. The salesman in CA told me that only a small percentage of these were ETCs, if that interests you. That, along with the fact that only about 30% of the E/K cars sold were Eldorados, means that only about 1 in 5 used E/K cars will be an Eldorado, and perhaps 1 in 10 will be an ETC. So, when shopping, have patience, and keep your caveat emptor, and get the car you really want.

[JasonA]

This is the E/K (Eldorado/Kadillac?) platform. In 1998, the Seville went to the A platform (Aurora?) but the Eldorado was built on the E platform as long as they made it.

Through 1997, the Eldorado and Seville were built on the same platform, the E/K platform. The Eldorado continued on this same platform after 1998. The Seville moved to the G platform, which underpinned the Aurora and Riviera. In 2000, the DeVille joined the G platform (it had shared the E/K with the Eldorado and Seville). The Eldorado stayed on the same E/K platform from 1993 through 2003, when it was discontinued.

According to Car and Driver tests at the time, the 0-60 times were 6.3 seconds for the ETC versus 6.7 seconds for the STS. So, the curb weight difference may be more than the 83 pounds difference in shipping weight indicated by the tables from the Cadillac History page. That few tenths of a second was the reason that I had no interest in the STS relative to the ETC.

The quickest I've seen an STS run 0-60 was in 6.4 seconds, so 6.3 seconds sounds right in line with what one should run. The weight difference is really negligible...production variances in the engines account for more of any difference than the weight difference. Any given STS might outrun any given ETC, and vice-versa. They're too close to call from the bench. If you want to know truly how fast any given car is, it'll have to be run down the track, because even within the same model year, they can vary widely.

Mike, Jim's advice to get what YOU really want is good. If you want a 2-door, get an Eldorado. If you want a 4-door, get a Seville. The interiors (through 1997) are exactly the same, save for the obvious rear seat area differences. Same bucket seats, center console, analog gauges, etc.

[ted tcb]

I agree with Jim and Jason's comments ... the Eldo/STS are the essentially the same car, and the Eldo's dash received a freshening in 1996.

But, the Seville received thousands of improvements in 1998. I have a promotional book on the lauch of the 98, and they really strived to give the car Lexus levels of NVH refinement.

You name it, and it was designed quieter. From bearings to fan assemblies in the blower, it was all a ground up redesign, achieving new levels of refinement. Besides eliminating noise, they also achieved noise balance levels ... think of freindly white noise designed to drown out annoying mechanical noises.

Apparently, the 425 watt Bose system demanded vault like silence to precisely image the sound. It remains the best OEM stereo I have ever heard, with that 12" subwoofer in the rear parcel shelf.

I also found the DSP placed the sound exactly where I wanted it from my driver's seat.

The ride quality rivals any production car on the road ... smooth as glass around town, just check out the 65mph shake on some cars.

All the little touches speak of class, and show that this car took advantage of 6 more years of production know -how versus the E/K platform.

Side air bags, the rear headrests are on a ratchet spring load, rear seat heaters, tons of customization presets, etc.

Nothing in the automotive world is cooler than turning the key on a newer STS. The steering wheel silently glides into place, the glowing red needles pop out against a black background, they do their calibration dance by sweeping back and forth, and then the main instruments come out of nowhere like a holigram.

Personally, I found the seats to be more comfortable in the G platform, and I definitely noticed that the leather is less prone to cracking and fading. Also, the wood steering wheel and shifter always reminded me of driving a 1950's vintage Jag ... way cool!

No disrespect to the E/K body owners ... for that platform still looks more muscular than any other Cadillac since perhaps the 1960's, and it really is timeless.

But, for someone like BBF who spends a lot of time driving on New York state's frost heaved roads, I would definitely check out the refinements built into the G platform.

For a weekend warrior, I'd opt for an E/K, simply based on looks.

For my daily driver, I like the sophistication and amenities that are only availabe on the newer car.

Just my .02cents.

[JasonA]

Ted is right in that from a practical standpoint, the 1998+ Sevilles on the G platform are much improved over their previous brothers and sisters. That platform was debuted in 1995, with the Olds Aurora and Buick Riviera, and was reported to be the strongest and tightest structure GM had designed, to date at the time. The suspension is totally different and improved.

As far as looks, I can't disagree with Ted. To me, the 92-97 Seville is about the most beautiful car to ever come out of Detroit. It's swept, but relaxed. It's stately, but also muscular. I love how the rear fascia treatment sweeps up to meet the exhaust tips, and you can see the big hulking mufflers underneath, not unlike on a C4 Corvette. The STS from the era speaks to me also, but it's not quite as "Cadillac" to me as the Seville, or DeVille.

The 96-97 Eldo/Seville are kind of a blend of old and new. Starting in '96, they got the new dash with integrated passenger airbag and "half-Lexus" analog gauges. At night, the red needle appears to float above the white numbers behind, but during the day, it's more of a conventional cluster. The center console became much more "flowing" in 1996, and the 1998 Sevilles followed that same theme.

In terms of practicality for a daily driver, I couldn't disagree with a recommendation for a '98+ Seville. Not even having driven in one, I know they're super cars, and much improved over 1997 and previous. If I drove one, I'm afraid I'd have to go out and buy one to augment my collection.

[GreenMachine]

my 98 factory service manual lumps the Eldorado and Deville models together, the E platform I think is the Eldorado and K is the old and discontinued fwd platform that was replaced by the 98 Seville and later the 2006 DTS.

[JasonA]

my 98 factory service manual lumps the Eldorado and Deville models together, the E platform I think is the Eldorado and K is the old and discontinued fwd platform that was replaced by the 98 Seville and later the 2006 DTS.

Correct -- but change "2006 DTS" to "2000 DeVille". The shared E/K platform was used through 1997 for the Seville (and then it went to the G platform). It was used through 1999 for the DeVille (and then it also went to the G platform). It was used through the end of the Eldorado, and then discontinued with the death of the Eldo.

The 1997 service manual lumps the Seville/DeVille/Eldorado together, since they're all on the same platform. The '98 E/K manual dropped the Seville because it went to the G platform for '98.

[Cadillac Jim]

There is a lot of enthusiasm for the G platform in selection of a used car to buy, and perhaps I shouldn't say anything, but it seemed to me at the time that when the 1998 STS came out and was tested by the enthusiast magazines like Car and Driver and Road and Track, I saw these things:

• The 0-60 times were a couple of tenths slower, typincally 6.8 seconds.
• Enthusiasm for the STS was undiminished, particularly at Car and Driver. But, enthusiasm did not increase.

What I observed is that the outside of the car got smaller and more compact, and the fender braces over the battery and air cleaner areas were no longer needed for chassis stiffening, but the weight did not go down. In fact, the weight increased slightly, from 3869 pounds to 4001 pounds.

The 2000-2004 Northstar, with its roller tappets and lower compression ratio, is another matter that I have seen as an advantage, particularly in the discussions about 5W-30 oil and grade of gasoline. My mechanic tells me that he has all his people watch for roller bearings in the oil when he changes the oil on those models, so he knows what motor has a minor lifter click and what motor needs a new rocker. And, again, I see the car mags report a small decrease in performance. But, the gas station attendants tell me that most people put regular gas (87 octane!!!) in their Nothstars. My mechanic tells me that these same people often complain about performance, pinging, and other predictable issues. They only recently talked a local small police department into going to middle-grade gas with their Ford 460's.

So, if you are looking for a used Cadillac, and you are concerned about differences in how the E and G plaforms drive, I would suggest that you drive both platforms before you put a premium on either. These things are very much subject to personal preferences that are hard to express, particularly with just a keyboard. If regular gas is a big issue for you, definitely get the 2000 or later model year. If four doors or rear seat legroom are important to you, get the Seville and not the Eldorado. If ride is of paramount importance, get the DeVille.

On the basis of the car magazine tests, the model years 1995, 1996, and 1997 have the quickest 0-60 times, with the ETC having about two tenths faster times than the STS. However, the total spread in reported times that I recall from Car and Driver, 6.3 seconds for a 1997 ETC to 6.9 seconds for a 2000 STS, is only 0.6 seconds. That sounds like a lot, but you will see that much difference in the same car. If you time it with less than a quarter tank when driving alone on a cool day, then fill it up and time it again the next day with a passenger and wamer temperatures, you can see that much change. Then, individual differences between cars will offer a similar spread in 0-60 times.

EPA fuel economy never varies much from 17 city, 26 higway, 20 combined. Check the EPA page

http://www.fueleconomy.gov/feg/findacar.htm

These are all things that are really more suited for decisions according to individual tastes.

[JasonA]

That's a good wrap-up Jim.

If you can point me to some published acceleration times for Eldorados, I'd love to add them to my chart:

http://www.jnjhome.net/cadillac/images/caddyperf.gif

Most of those numbers are from Sevilles and DeVilles, only because that's what I could find. The differences in performance times are really slivers of a second, not something on which to base a purchase decision in my opinion. Buy the car you like best, with the color you like and the options you like. If that's an ETC or STS, great. But I wouldn't personally disclude other cars simply to get that 0.2 second advantage because, as Jim says, the weight of fuel in the car or your golf clubs in the trunk or the density of the air one day could easily overcome that difference.

Having said that, the two powertrains CAN show a pretty significant difference in fuel economy, especially on the road, the difference in final drive ratio affecting that more than the engine at that point. Most L37 owners report 16-18 city and 20-25 highway. Most LD8 owners report upwards of 20 city and 28-32 highway. The best I've received on a trip was 31 mpg, over 220 miles. Technically, both powertrains are rated 17/26, but we know from experience here that there's a demonstratable difference between the two versions. I personally think the 17/26 is valid for the L37 cars (ETC/STS). Very few folks with LD8 cars (Eldorado/SLS) get that low. The only time I've gotten as LOW as 26 mpg highway was during a trip through the mountains of West Virginia.

[KHE]

But, the gas station attendants tell me that most people put regular gas (87 octane!!!) in their Nothstars. My mechanic tells me that these same people often complain about performance, pinging, and other predictable issues. They only recently talked a local small police department into going to middle-grade gas with their Ford 460's.

Jim,

The '93-'99 Northstars will run just fine on regular gas - there is a knock sensor under the intake that will retard the timing to prevent spark knock if it is detected. If the Northstar pings, there is something wrong with the knock sensor circuit. The 2000+ Northstars were otimized for regular gas. It is something of a debate but personally, I do not notice any decrease in performance or fuel economy in either of my Northstars using regular gas.

What police vehicle is still using a 460????

[Cadillac Jim]

JasonA -- I haven't tracked performance figures for awhile because I'm not in the market and I have no time. However you might look at http://www.caranddriver.com/ and see what you can find for road test summary archives. They usually run road tests whenever there is a significant change in a model, and they ran road tests on the STS in 1992, 1993, 1995, etc. The STS was Car of the Year for either them or Road and Track in 1992, with the 4.9. They ran road tests on the ETC in 1997 and I remember the letters column, where a reader claimed a measured time of 6.1 seconds for his ETC. The Editor replied that his feelings were hurt because the reader was quicker at the trigger than he was.

I like Car and Driver performance reports because they compensate for altitude, barometric pressure, and temperature (humidity?) in their 0-60 and quarter-mile times, and run their tests with a quarter tank. Also, they include skidpad g measurements, slalom run times, and for appropriate cars in comparison tests they give lap times on a road course.

I certainly agree that having the same EPA for the 275 hp and 300 hp models is misleading. The 300 hp models have more intake valve lift and duration, and a lower final drive ratio. Your observation for the 300 hp fuel economy is consistent with my experience.

There is one big difference between the VIN 9 and VIN Y cars that will always make me prefer the VIN 9: the handling package. Handling is more important to me than acceleration. That's why I love my rock-hard Michelin Pilot Sport A/S tires.

KHE: The current production Ford Police Interceptors use 460 engines, according to a filling station attendant that I talked to yesterday. There was one in front of me at the pump, and I asked him if it was a 460 and what grade they were using. He said yes, it was a 460, and they were using the middle grade. They were using 87 octane until recently.

The 1993-1999 Northstars have a 10.3 compression ratio. Even with aluminum heads and retardes spark, I think you are pushing it to run 87 octane with that compressio ratio. With some carbon build-up, you will have knocking on cranking a hot engine. Then, there's the issue of keeping the injectors clean. Nothing but the best for my baby.

[JimD]

All these platform designations are causing me blurred vision and memory loss.

My 1998 Seville Service Manual says "K Platform" on the cover.

Maybe my reading comprehension is failing OR GM North American Operations folks made a publishing error OR there is some erroneous information being passed on here.

[Ranger]

All these platform designations are causing me blurred vision

Me too. Never really understood the differences (or what a "Platform" is for that matter). Guess I am still in the "Chassis" mode.

[epricedright]

All these platform designations are causing me blurred vision

Me too. Never really understood the differences (or what a "Platform" is for that matter). Guess I am still in the "Chassis" mode.

I hear ya!

All I know, or need to know, is my Caddy is on a "Caddy" platform.