Todd Posted June 14, 2011 Report Share Posted June 14, 2011 Hello everyone, first time posting on here, i think im doing it right. lol anyway my mom has a 98 deville with 130k and got bad head gasket,go figure not another one, its ashame cause the car is spotless,was always babied, haha,(oil is chocolate milk, just happened) anyway after alot of research im seeing that studs are the way to go!! (ill be doing all the work myself) but there $550.00 for studs/jakes who can afford that?? well my uncle works at a big company that has all necessary equiptment(he runs a CNC and his buddy runs the lathe) to make me these hardened studs so now i just need help getting proper specs so i can get them made, whats the best thread pitch ect to go with?????? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cadillac Jim Posted June 14, 2011 Report Share Posted June 14, 2011 I think that the part numbers and such are all that is in the FSM, so someone would have to have a head bolt handy and check it against nuts of known thread size and pitch to answer authoritatively, and someone will like do that, or has done that, and will post here soon. Or, you can call TimeSert and ask them, as you will be using TimeSerts in your block. But, I do recommend that you get some FelPro or AC/Delco head bolts or the Northstar Performance studs instead of making your own because the threads and length are just the beginning of the problem. These are TTY head bolts, as are used on most all-aluminum engines, so you must also match the bolt alloy and diameter. Any differences, no matter how slight, will require that you adjust the torque-and-twist specifications. With first-time-off head bolts, the torque-and-twist is an experiment, unless you have a way of measuring clamping force on some test bolts. -- Click Here for CaddyInfo page on "How To" Read Your OBD Codes-- Click Here for my personal page to download my OBD code list as an Excel file, plus other Cadillac data -- See my CaddyInfo car blogs: 2011 CTS-V, 1997 ETC Yes, I was Jims_97_ETC before I changed cars. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KHE Posted June 14, 2011 Report Share Posted June 14, 2011 The Northstar head bolts are NOT torque to yield bolts. The only reason they cannot be reused is there is no practical way to apply the microencapsulated threadlocker to the threads in the field. I believe the head bolts are M11x1.5 thread for the pre-2000 engines. Personally, not knowing the alloy composition of the bolts and considering all the work it is to R&R the engine, I would not want to fabricate my own studs. A Timesert kit can be purchased for $300.00 and a set of new head bolts for less than $60.00 from gmotors.com. Kevin '93 Fleetwood Brougham '05 Deville '04 Deville 2013 Silverado Z71 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cadillac Jim Posted June 14, 2011 Report Share Posted June 14, 2011 I didn't think that the NS head bolts were TTY either, until I saw the PDF file linked from a post by Bruce on the "Headgasket brands" thread: http://caddyinfo.ipb...ndpost&p=190784 Scroll down to the link to the Fel-Pro site and the PDF document. Of course, Fel-Pro is not GM and I agree that this Fel-Pro marketing document is probably wrong on that point, because TTY doesn't strike me as the best choice for long life for head bolts on an all-aluminum engine because the clamping force would gradually weaken, while stretched head bolts with their stretch length set by Toreqe-and-Turn specifications would support indefinite life in an all-aluminum engine. In the future I'll go with stretched torque-and-turn. -- Click Here for CaddyInfo page on "How To" Read Your OBD Codes-- Click Here for my personal page to download my OBD code list as an Excel file, plus other Cadillac data -- See my CaddyInfo car blogs: 2011 CTS-V, 1997 ETC Yes, I was Jims_97_ETC before I changed cars. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KHE Posted June 14, 2011 Report Share Posted June 14, 2011 The guru stated they were not TTY bolts - It is possible the Felpro marketing info. states that to drive home the point that the bolts can't be re-used. Kevin '93 Fleetwood Brougham '05 Deville '04 Deville 2013 Silverado Z71 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Todd Posted June 14, 2011 Author Report Share Posted June 14, 2011 inserts are no good. just a band-aid and stock bolts are worthless, fine threads, i want a permanent fix. (studs) and i dont want stock thread pitch i want something thats gonna last. maybe a more coarse thread (2.0+) and i can have the studs made from any metal of my choice, the guys doing the machine work, they do multi billion dollar project for companys around the world, so the know-how is there. im not worried about that. the studs that im gonna have made will be harder and better quality than jakes or ARP. but i just need specs..... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Texas Jim Posted June 14, 2011 Report Share Posted June 14, 2011 inserts are no good. just a band-aid and stock bolts are worthless, fine threads, i want a permanent fix. (studs) and i dont want stock thread pitch i want something thats gonna last. maybe a more coarse thread (2.0+) and i can have the studs made from any metal of my choice, the guys doing the machine work, they do multi billion dollar project for companys around the world, so the know-how is there. im not worried about that. the studs that im gonna have made will be harder and better quality than jakes or ARP. but i just need specs..... Buy "ONE" bolt or stud of your choice... Use a thread gauge... Then you will have all of the size, length and thread pitch specs... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BodybyFisher Posted June 14, 2011 Report Share Posted June 14, 2011 If the block material is deteriorated it won't matter what you use, timeserts, bolts or studs, they will pull out, nor will thread pitch matter. We have a member right now that studded his block and he is overheating again and in the process of diagnosing the problem. Inspect the block material closely when you drill the block, powdery, sandy material indicates that the block material has deteriorated from heat and coolant intrusion and the block must be discarded. To me, that is the most important issue. Pre-1995 - DTC codes OBD1 >> 1996 and newer - DTC codes OBD2 >> https://www.obd-codes.com/trouble_codes/gm/obd_codes.htm How to check for codes Caddyinfo How To Technical Archive >> http://www.caddyinfo.com/wordpress/cadillac-how-to-faq/ Cadillac History & Specifications Year by Year http://www.motorera.com/cadillac/index.htm Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cadillac Jim Posted June 14, 2011 Report Share Posted June 14, 2011 The clamping force for each head bolt is determined by the alloy, thickness, and length between the head and the second thread - which determine the spring constant (Newtons per mm of stretch) and the distance of the stretch, which is determined by the thread pitch and the number of turns after the bolt is torqued to something like 22 lb-ft to close up all slack. Thus torque-and-turn head bolts provide a very consistent clamping force. Once installed, the most important feature of torque-and-twist head bolts applies: with a hot engine, where the aluminum head and block expand more than the steel head bolt, the stretch increases, increasing the clamping force. When the engine cools down again, everything comes back to normal and the clamping force is the same as when installed on a cold engine. With TTY bolts, additional yielding when the engine is hot will weaken the clamping force. Such a system must be designed so that the hot clamping force is sufficient for the engine design, and that cold clamping force, even in arctic temperatures, is sufficient for engine operation in those conditions, including carbon knock and such. With bolts that have almost no yield in them, which are tempting to do when you are making your own head bolts and want to make them as strong as possible, you are almost guaranteed to strip your inserts when the engine is hot. The length of the head bolt is set by the engine design. Adjusting the spring constant by selecting the alloy and diameter, and the torque-and-twist specs, so that the clamping force is sufficient for all operating conditions and temperatures is a bit of a science, not a one-off machine shop project. "Inserts are worthless" strikes me as not appreciating the problem. There is a good chance that some or all of the threads in the block will be damaged when the original head bolts are removed. Helicoil repairs do not provide the strength needed for head bolt threads, and TimeSerts are recommended for just about all major makes of modern aluminum engines everywhere, not just the head bolts; see http://www.TimeSert.com for more information there. You'll need inserts from TimeSert or another quality vendor whether you use bolts or studs. The stock head bolts do quite well in about three million Northstars out there, which usually don't give head gasket or thread bolt problems with cars that are under 100,000 miles or seven years old with no coolant maintenance - the most common history seen in new head gasket problems. For examples of their use on sand cars with 400 hp and more with twin turbos, some of which are used for several years between teardowns. See http://www.chrfab.com for more information. But, if you want premium head bolts, FelPro and others sell them. Of course, Northstar Performance makes studs that have a pretty good name, too. These have the right spring constant for the torque-and-twist specifications provided with them, and they are finished by cold rolling to give a smooth surface to the stretching portion which prevents cracks and weaknesses in the body of the bolt, which is just about impossible with lathe-formed bolts without polishing and other measures such as annealing and tempering. -- Click Here for CaddyInfo page on "How To" Read Your OBD Codes-- Click Here for my personal page to download my OBD code list as an Excel file, plus other Cadillac data -- See my CaddyInfo car blogs: 2011 CTS-V, 1997 ETC Yes, I was Jims_97_ETC before I changed cars. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BodybyFisher Posted June 14, 2011 Report Share Posted June 14, 2011 By the way I recently ordered a catalog from ARP and was very impressed with their products and quality control. Plus they have lots of experience in drag racing that has honed their product to this point. Personally, I would trust them exclusively, if I strayed from OEM Pre-1995 - DTC codes OBD1 >> 1996 and newer - DTC codes OBD2 >> https://www.obd-codes.com/trouble_codes/gm/obd_codes.htm How to check for codes Caddyinfo How To Technical Archive >> http://www.caddyinfo.com/wordpress/cadillac-how-to-faq/ Cadillac History & Specifications Year by Year http://www.motorera.com/cadillac/index.htm Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Todd Posted June 14, 2011 Author Report Share Posted June 14, 2011 jakes studs dont use an insert, and thats what im going for, but just not gonna pay the crazy price when i can have em made for next to nothing. and yes if block is deteriorated i will get another block, "Inserts are worthless" haha when i seen they sell a big kit for when the first kit fails i was no longer interested lmao.. band-aid, "You'll need inserts from TimeSert or another quality vendor whether you use bolts or studs." thats the thing i dont want a 2-piece setup. i want a 1 piece setup like jakes studs, much stronger, "science" ??? ofcoarse imnot gonna have just a piece of steel and roll out a stud. i understand that, i can get ahold of just about any kind of metal/alloy even custom if ness. thats why im here asking questions????? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KHE Posted June 14, 2011 Report Share Posted June 14, 2011 jakes studs dont use an insert, and thats what im going for, but just not gonna pay the crazy price when i can have em made for next to nothing. and yes if block is deteriorated i will get another block, "Inserts are worthless" haha when i seen they sell a big kit for when the first kit fails i was no longer interested lmao.. band-aid, The Bigsert is made to fix a block that had a botched attempt at a repair by someone using heilicoils. The heilicoils will pull out when the head bolts are torqued down. The Bigsert is made to salvage the block that was improperly repaired, not because the first generation insert didn't hold. If the block is junk, you might as well look for a different engine - much cheaper than buying just a block. The pistons are matched to the bores. If the engine is sitting in a junkyard for any length of time, there will be rust/pitting in the bore which will require honing to factory specs. and replacing the rod bearings and rings. The rod bearings cannot be reused in these engines due to the amount of crush they encounter when torquing the rod caps. If a rod bearing is reused, the bearing will spin out. The rod cap bolts must also be replaced. Kevin '93 Fleetwood Brougham '05 Deville '04 Deville 2013 Silverado Z71 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Todd Posted June 14, 2011 Author Report Share Posted June 14, 2011 i have read countless post on many different sites where inserts pulled out few thousand miles later or some even pulled during torqueing down head, but any way thats not my case or my matter and i never came to debate studs or inserts, and my block should be fine (fingers crossed) haha, at this point im just lookinjg for info on thread pitch and size length dia. ect.ect. i should use, im thinking the coarse (2.0) after i figure that out i will then determine what the best material is to use as far as alloy/metal, but i gotta take it one step at a time.... everybodys jumpin the gun, haha. but the end result will be a custom set of studs, you didnt think jake or arp were the only ones that can make em haha. but i gotta start somewhere.!!!!!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Texas Jim Posted June 14, 2011 Report Share Posted June 14, 2011 The head bolts in the 1999 and older engines seem to be the most problematic. The design was changed in 2000 and again in 2004. I have not heard of ANY head bolt failures in engines from 2004 to the current year model. If you have a multimillion dollar machine shop and facilities... as you stated previously, you should be able to get one of the post 2004 bolts to use as a template and do reverse engineering from there. I have no info as to the alloy the bolts are made from. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Todd Posted June 14, 2011 Author Report Share Posted June 14, 2011 In 2004 the headbolt has changed to a M11x2.0 thread vs previous M11x1.5 (correct me if im wrong) but wont the stud i make need to be bigger than M11?????????? (assuming M11 is dia.) since i will be drilling out the block, or that must be where the reverse engineering comes in??? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Texas Jim Posted June 14, 2011 Report Share Posted June 14, 2011 In 2004 the headbolt has changed to a M11x2.0 thread vs previous M11x1.5 (correct me if im wrong) but wont the stud i make need to be bigger than M11?????????? (assuming M11 is dia.) since i will be drilling out the block, or that must be where the reverse engineering comes in??? Yes...but I reckon the FINAL SIZE is up to you.... You are the one that wants to design a new stud/bolt that is better than the other ones. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Todd Posted June 14, 2011 Author Report Share Posted June 14, 2011 hows a M13x2.0 sound for in block and the rest of stud M11 with 1.5 on top for nut? thats about what jakes looks like... anybody know how long the original bolt it? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Todd Posted June 14, 2011 Author Report Share Posted June 14, 2011 """You are the one that wants to design a new stud/bolt that is better than the other ones. "" haha well you could always buy me the studs? i didnt think so. who's paying over $500 for a few bucks in steel. its just the N* kit that cost 2 arms and a leg, they teamed up with cadillac jk lol Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Todd Posted June 14, 2011 Author Report Share Posted June 14, 2011 im thinking 30mm of 2.0 threads that go into block, now i just need to know overall lenght, so that will be M11x1.5 x 30mm up top and m13x2.0 x 30mm for block what u think? enough thread or not enough????? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JohnnyG Posted June 15, 2011 Report Share Posted June 15, 2011 That sounds absolutely perfect to me for this attempt haha. Of course I know as much about headbolt design as you do. Never underestimate the amount of a persons greed. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ranger Posted June 15, 2011 Report Share Posted June 15, 2011 The studs are 7" long. 2" of thread in the block. 1.5" of thread at the top. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BodybyFisher Posted June 15, 2011 Report Share Posted June 15, 2011 With your nasty attitude, I will wish you good luck at this point. You came here for help, we don't need your attitude. Good luck reinventing the wheel, you have such a big chip on your shoulder you think you are better than ARP, you dont need us, get your multi billion dollar gurus to figure it out... Pre-1995 - DTC codes OBD1 >> 1996 and newer - DTC codes OBD2 >> https://www.obd-codes.com/trouble_codes/gm/obd_codes.htm How to check for codes Caddyinfo How To Technical Archive >> http://www.caddyinfo.com/wordpress/cadillac-how-to-faq/ Cadillac History & Specifications Year by Year http://www.motorera.com/cadillac/index.htm Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cadillac Jim Posted June 15, 2011 Report Share Posted June 15, 2011 I want to hear how all this works out for him after 1,000 road miles. -- Click Here for CaddyInfo page on "How To" Read Your OBD Codes-- Click Here for my personal page to download my OBD code list as an Excel file, plus other Cadillac data -- See my CaddyInfo car blogs: 2011 CTS-V, 1997 ETC Yes, I was Jims_97_ETC before I changed cars. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Todd Posted June 15, 2011 Author Report Share Posted June 15, 2011 "BodybyFisher" "attitude" where do you get this from??/ no attitude here,just dont need any debbie downers even commenting on my post, i asked for help not negative talk ect. some may think it sounds crazy, others will give good input. thats all. it is what it is. and if you feel/felt i got an attitude. sorry you feel that way but thats not the case, my purpose here is to obtain some info/knoledge, it has been a long haul with this caddy and im gonna give it the fix cadillac should of Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KHE Posted June 15, 2011 Report Share Posted June 15, 2011 im thinking 30mm of 2.0 threads that go into block, now i just need to know overall lenght, so that will be M11x1.5 x 30mm up top and m13x2.0 x 30mm for block what u think? enough thread or not enough????? You need to be careful going too big as you will structurally weaken the block. The 2.0 pitch would be fine as that's what the '04+ engines had. Kevin '93 Fleetwood Brougham '05 Deville '04 Deville 2013 Silverado Z71 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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