Need headbolt/stud specs ect, if anyone knows??

[Texas Jim]

"BodybyFisher" "attitude" where do you get this from??/ no attitude here,just dont need any debbie downers even commenting on my post, i asked for help not negative talk ect. some may think it sounds crazy, others will give good input. thats all. it is what it is. and if you feel/felt i got an attitude. sorry you feel that way but thats not the case, my purpose here is to obtain some info/knoledge, it has been a long haul with this caddy and im gonna give it the fix cadillac should of

I too think you have an ATTITUDE...

The only DEBBIE DOWNERS, as you call them, that commented on your post were only pointing out that studs had already been invented for the Northstar block ... and that they work...and work well.

But since you want to do it all over again... have at it.

Sorry... I am not a metallurgist...I can't help you...

And one other thing...

If you don't want rational suggestions or solutions, pointed out to you...it might not be a good idea to post your hare brained plans on a public forum...

Hmmm reckon now I too am a Debbie Downer...

Oh well so be it... :)

[BodybyFisher]

im thinking 30mm of 2.0 threads that go into block, now i just need to know overall lenght,

so that will be M11x1.5 x 30mm up top and m13x2.0 x 30mm for block what u think? enough thread or not enough?????

You need to be careful going too big as you will structurally weaken the block. The 2.0 pitch would be fine as that's what the '04+ engines had.

That is exactly what I was thinking, but declined to say anything because HE and his multi-billion dollar gurus know better. What until he creates a crack between the cylinders on the exterior of the block between the bolt lands because he takes too much material away, like we saw from that rebuilder over the winter.

He knows better. I usually watch these types sink in the deep end of the pool, beause he poo poos everyone and knows better with his HE'LL decide cocky attitude.

I will repeat, if the material is weakened as AJ illustrated for us, it doesnt matter what you install, it will pull out like its in butter. The timeserts he dumps on work, if they are in GOOD material, but he knows better than members who have been here over 10 years and become educated and developed their opinions over time.

[BodybyFisher]

"BodybyFisher" "attitude" where do you get this from??/ no attitude here,just dont need any debbie downers even commenting on my post, i asked for help not negative talk ect. some may think it sounds crazy, others will give good input. thats all. it is what it is. and if you feel/felt i got an attitude. sorry you feel that way but thats not the case, my purpose here is to obtain some info/knoledge, it has been a long haul with this caddy and im gonna give it the fix cadillac should of

I too think you have an ATTITUDE...

The only DEBBIE DOWNERS, as you call them, that commented on your post were only pointing out that studs had already been invented for the Northstar block ... and that they work...and work well.

But since you want to do it all over again... have at it.

Sorry... I am not a metallurgist...I can't help you...

And one other thing...

If you don't want rational suggestions or solutions, pointed out to you...it might not be a good idea to post your hare brained plans on a public forum...

Hmmm reckon now I too am a Debbie Downer...

Oh well so be it... :)

I think yoiu missed that he wants to do it cheaply. He wont spend $300 to $500 for the Norms/Northstar Performance studs and he is dumping on the timeserts and even ARP, I spoke to ARP and reviewed their catalog, not many do it better. Listen when you can get the studs done for nothing, thats great, but dumping on everything else is bad form and I take offense to it.

[BodybyFisher]

I want to hear how all this works out for him after 1,000 road miles.

Ditto Jim. Northing trumps expience and tried and true solutions.

[BodybyFisher]

"BodybyFisher" "attitude" where do you get this from??/ no attitude here,just dont need any debbie downers even commenting on my post, i asked for help not negative talk ect. some may think it sounds crazy, others will give good input. thats all. it is what it is. and if you feel/felt i got an attitude. sorry you feel that way but thats not the case, my purpose here is to obtain some info/knoledge, it has been a long haul with this caddy and im gonna give it the fix cadillac should of

I too think you have an ATTITUDE...

The only DEBBIE DOWNERS, as you call them, that commented on your post were only pointing out that studs had already been invented for the Northstar block ... and that they work...and work well.

But since you want to do it all over again... have at it.

Sorry... I am not a metallurgist...I can't help you...

And one other thing...

If you don't want rational suggestions or solutions, pointed out to you...it might not be a good idea to post your hare brained plans on a public forum...

Hmmm reckon now I too am a Debbie Downer...

Oh well so be it... :)

Oh come on Debbie, I mean Jim

You should be in a great mood, DIRK and the Mavricks kicked butt on that know it all self absorbed self annointed KING down there in Miami.... There is a God!

[Todd]

wha wha wha. is all i hear, i dont understand why you select few keep posting negative stuff on my post. some may not believe that i can do it, those few can just stay away, (they are what we call haters) please no haters or debbie downers. if you cant contribute positive comment please dont stink up my post, im fully aware of what can go wrong and what to look for in the block, so with that said, maybe we can continue on with no negative or *smurf* talk!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

ok back to the plans: after countless hrs research i came up with. 5\8 x 2.0 in block and 7/16 x 1.5 coming out of block. grade 8 hardeden steel

some will recognize these specs haha others wont, but them are the stud specs that have been proven to work, haha almost like i knew what i was doing,

[Texas Jim]

"BodybyFisher" "attitude" where do you get this from??/ no attitude here,just dont need any debbie downers even commenting on my post, i asked for help not negative talk ect. some may think it sounds crazy, others will give good input. thats all. it is what it is. and if you feel/felt i got an attitude. sorry you feel that way but thats not the case, my purpose here is to obtain some info/knoledge, it has been a long haul with this caddy and im gonna give it the fix cadillac should of

I too think you have an ATTITUDE...

The only DEBBIE DOWNERS, as you call them, that commented on your post were only pointing out that studs had already been invented for the Northstar block ... and that they work...and work well.

But since you want to do it all over again... have at it.

Sorry... I am not a metallurgist...I can't help you...

And one other thing...

If you don't want rational suggestions or solutions, pointed out to you...it might not be a good idea to post your hare brained plans on a public forum...

Hmmm reckon now I too am a Debbie Downer...

Oh well so be it... :)

Oh come on Debbie, I mean Jim

You should be in a great mood, DIRK and the Mavricks kicked butt on that know it all self absorbed self annointed KING down there in Miami.... There is a God!

Yep... and he likes the Mavericks...

CHOKE... the Official drink of Lebron James...

[Texas Jim]

wha wha wha. is all i hear, i dont understand why you select few keep posting negative stuff on my post. some may not believe that i can do it, those few can just stay away, (they are what we call haters) please no haters or debbie downers. if you cant contribute positive comment please dont stink up my post, im fully aware of what can go wrong and what to look for in the block, so with that said, maybe we can continue on with no negative or *smurf* talk!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

ok back to the plans: after countless hrs research i came up with. 5\8 x 2.0 in block and 7/16 x 1.5 coming out of block. grade 8 hardeden steel

some will recognize these specs haha others wont, but them are the stud specs that have been proven to work, haha almost like i knew what i was doing,

What thread pitch ??

Cut threads, or rolled threads??

Personally, I would go with 1/2 inch diameter on top... not 7/16th..

But this is my last post to you in this thread...

Good Luck...

[Todd]

""Cut threads, or rolled threads??"" either one should get the job done, rolled is a little better but not that much, (something like 10-15% stronger if rolled ect.)

""Personally, I would go with 1/2 inch diameter on top... not 7/16th.."" if i go with 1/2in ill have to drill out all holes in head, as stock bolts measure 7/16 or actually a hair less.

[Todd]

hmm???? maybe there isn't much difference.

Threads of a mechanical fastener, regardless of whether it is a headed bolt, rod, or bent bolt, can be produced by either cutting or rolling. The differences, misconceptions, advantages, and disadvantages of each method are described below.

Cut Threads

Cut threading is a process by which steel is cut away, or physically removed, from a round bar of steel to form the threads. A 1″ diameter bolt, for example, is produced by cutting threads into a full 1″ diameter body of the bolt.

Advantages of Cut Threading

1.Few limitations with regard to diameter and thread length.

2.All specifications can be manufactured with cut threads.

Disadvantages of Cut Threading

1.Significantly longer labor times means higher costs.

Rolled Threads

Roll threading is a process by which steel is extruded to form the threaded portion of a fastener, instead of being removed as in cut threading. In this process, a bolt is manufactured from a reduced diameter round bar. For example, a 1″ diameter bolt is manufactured from .912″ diameter round bar. This “pitch diameter” material is approximately the midpoint between the major diameter (peaks) and minor diameter (valleys) of the threads. The bolt is “rolled” through a set of threading dies which displaces the steel and forms the threads. The end result is a fastener with a full 1″ diameter threaded portion but a reduced body diameter (.912). Roll threading is an extremely efficient process and often results in significant cost savings.

Roll Threading Misconceptions

1.Roll threaded bolts do not meet ASTM specifications.

Technically, any specification with the exception of A325 and A490 structural bolts can be produced with a reduced body and rolled threads.

2.A bolt with a reduced body will be weaker than a bolt with a full sized body.

The weakest area of any mechanical fastener is the minor diameter of the threads. Since the thread dimensions of a cut thread and rolled thread fastener are identical, there is absolutely no difference in strength. One could actually argue that the work hardening which occurs during the roll threading process may even make the fastener with rolled threads stronger. Additionally, cut threading interrupts the natural grain structure of the round bar whereas roll threading reforms it. One could again argue that cutting into the grain of a round bar when cut threading may produce threads which have less structural integrity than a part which has been roll threaded.

[Cadillac Jim]

The most critical thing about TAT head bolts on all-aluminum engines is the spring constant on tension. It must be low enough so that the clamping force on a maximally hot engine does not strip the threads, and so that that the stretching force is far below the yield strength of the bolt so that you don't get metal fatigue. That, and the minimum clamping force needed for engine operation while maximally *cold* puts a lower limit on the spring constant on tension.

There are several things that determine the weakest point in bolts. Yes, the minimum diameter, usually at the bottom of the threads, is certainly a factor, as is the radius of cusp at the dihedral angle there. You can set the lathe and select the cutting tool to determine what this radius is, but lathe cuts always leave microscopic cracks in the cut surface that make the bolt weaker than the equations would suggest. Rolled threads do not have the microscopic cracks, either in the threads or the body of the bolt.

Some of the better torque-and-twist have round heads and Allen or Torx insets, like a brake caliper. Mine do; it's a Jasper engine.

Please forgive some of us for thinking that you are just a machine shop guy who wants to make the strongest bolt possible, but doesn't understand all of what a Northstar head bolt or stud must do to succeed over the long haul; you do come across that way. Trying to tell you something that they think you must know to succeed isn't necessarily negative. Please let us know how this all works out for you.

[Todd]

thanks jims. and i do understand the science behind it all,

class 10.9 which is roughly equal to a grade 8 standard bolt. should do the job as thats what gm uses, im doing all my homework before i do this job, thats for sure, and no-one can change my mind, and yea inserts are decent, i have installed them in a few n* blocks still going strong today,(and my uncle at the machine shop made me both sets of inserts that i used) but for this 98 my mom has (car is flawless 9.9/10,) i wanna go with studs, and im not gonna pay over $500 for a few bucks in steel from northstarperformance, not my type of party. ill end up paying about $25

its not that big of a deal like everyone is making it,

and yes i know there just passing on good info about block ect. but thats not why im here, """"""Need headbolt/stud specs ect, if anyone knows??"""""""""" is why im here, just sayin, (and without an attitude) haha laugh a little,,,,

remember it isn't always what you know, but who you know!!!!

[KHE]

wha wha wha. is all i hear, i dont understand why you select few keep posting negative stuff on my post. some may not believe that i can do it, those few can just stay away, (they are what we call haters) please no haters or debbie downers. if you cant contribute positive comment please dont stink up my post, im fully aware of what can go wrong and what to look for in the block, so with that said, maybe we can continue on with no negative or *smurf* talk!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

ok back to the plans: after countless hrs research i came up with. 5\8 x 2.0 in block and 7/16 x 1.5 coming out of block. grade 8 hardeden steel

some will recognize these specs haha others wont, but them are the stud specs that have been proven to work, haha almost like i knew what i was doing,

It is going to take a lot of work to come up with a torque spec. that puts the correct amount of clamping to assure the proper gasket crush when jumping from a metric thread to an SAE thread. Why not use the 2.0 metric thread pitch and use the torque spec. from the 2004+ engine?

The portion of the bolt that passes through the head needs to be undersized slightly to account for the tolerance stackup on the hole positions in the head and the block. If the bolt diameter is too large, the head might not even fit over the studs.

[Todd]

i have this going on another site thought i would share here and see what maybe some of you thought,

""" AND you said your oil is chocolate milk ""

ok not exactly chocolate milk but deffinently not pure oil, and what ever happened it happened while it was sitting idle cause i have been working on it over the past few months it was one thing after the other, it was running great except it kept loosing coolant, but never got hotter than 240 ect, maybe 244 a time or 2 but never overheated, first it was radiator leaking, ok fixed that, then water pump started leaking, ok fixed that,then bottle started leaking (crack) ok fix that, then the cross over started leaking, ok fix that, new gaskets, (was told its a chore, but had it done in a few hrs) ok then the heater core started leaking, ok replaced that, then the bottle started leaking again (just when it got to running temp it would dribble out so i got some good adhesive and got that taken care of) then while im letting it run to see if the bottle was gonna leak which it didnt, its like everytime i got the collant system sealed up something else went, then i got it all sealed (new stuff) then.

then all of a sudden it started puffing white smoke not a whole bunch but enough, i let it run for about 3-5 mins then shut it off, check oil and its brownish orange, and i had checked it the prior day, it was fine just a hair below full mark. and now its at full mark with the icky stuff ect, so there isnt much in the oil, it just pretty much changed the color of the oilis all, but i know these monsters are prone to there problems, i just say it isnt cheap to drive a caddy haha the truth!!!!

[Cadillac Jim]

Sounds like battery acid in the coolant or some such, and the guy didn't flush the coolant until everything was totally wrecked. It doesn't sound like a Northstar, though, because they will dribble coolant out the sides of the head/block at the head gasket before they let oil in the coolant.

[Todd]

coolant is fine!!!!! something is in the oil? got to be coolant!!!!!!!!! what else would it be?

"Sounds like battery acid in the coolant or some such" i dont see how that is possible? but im listening

[BodybyFisher]

i have this going on another site thought i would share here and see what maybe some of you thought,

""" AND you said your oil is chocolate milk ""

ok not exactly chocolate milk but deffinently not pure oil, and what ever happened it happened while it was sitting idle cause i have been working on it over the past few months it was one thing after the other, it was running great except it kept loosing coolant, but never got hotter than 240 ect, maybe 244 a time or 2 but never overheated, first it was radiator leaking, ok fixed that, then water pump started leaking, ok fixed that,then bottle started leaking (crack) ok fix that, then the cross over started leaking, ok fix that, new gaskets, (was told its a chore, but had it done in a few hrs) ok then the heater core started leaking, ok replaced that, then the bottle started leaking again (just when it got to running temp it would dribble out so i got some good adhesive and got that taken care of) then while im letting it run to see if the bottle was gonna leak which it didnt, its like everytime i got the collant system sealed up something else went, then i got it all sealed (new stuff) then.

then all of a sudden it started puffing white smoke not a whole bunch but enough, i let it run for about 3-5 mins then shut it off, check oil and its brownish orange, and i had checked it the prior day, it was fine just a hair below full mark. and now its at full mark with the icky stuff ect, so there isnt much in the oil, it just pretty much changed the color of the oilis all, but i know these monsters are prone to there problems, i just say it isnt cheap to drive a caddy haha the truth!!!!

This is pretty typical of an aging cooling system where you fix a weak leak and then the NEXT weak component blows, fix that leak then the next weak component blows, pretty typical

And the final straw was it appears that his head gasket is blown if he has coolant in his oil. Coolant in the oil is not typical, we have seen some fail that way but the percentage we have seen fail this way is low. Typically superheated combustion gases, heats up the coolant and the system boils over. We have also seen coolant leaking into the combustion chamber causing a temporary miss, maybe its possible that coolant leaks into the combustion chamber and leaks past the rings into the crankcase

[Todd]

""" We have also seen coolant leaking into the combustion chamber causing a temporary miss, maybe its possible that coolant leaks into the combustion chamber and leaks past the rings into the crankcase """

thats a possibility, ( that would explain the very little amount of coolant in oil) now that u mention a miss, there has been a slight miss in the morning for awhile some morning worse than others, but quickly idled smooth within 5-15 seconds

""""Typically superheated combustion gases, heats up the coolant and the system boils over"""" that was also a possible problem under load, never idle, and it would blow out the hose near cap, was thinking air pocket or something? who knows, i believe that whats what i was possibly dealing with, that caused the leak party, haha then when i sealed up everything something had to give right. thats when it started smoking and i discovered the coolant in oil,

either way it needs torn down, no getting around it, gonna be a nice project, look foward to doing it!!!!!

[BodybyFisher]

I got the 20 second miss first thing in the morning also, then it went away for the day. The only other symptom was that it would run 217 to 219 normally (instead of 199 to 205) and then quickly spike up to 240 in any kind of traffic. It had to move at all times

[Todd]

see i was fine 190 on highway and about 200-206 reg driving, even heavy stop and go on a 100degree day 215 max, but recently when i would get off the freeway it would jump to 222-226 then imediatly go back to 200-206, (i always watch the temp more than the speedo,) haha but even before it started smoking it would loose coolant out the hose by cap, checked purge line it was open and clear, it would loose a 1/2 -3/4 gal. every few days, and im 99% sure most of it, if not all was coming out said hose. it still wont overheat even right now, runs perfect, i could go start it right now let it run idle and it wont heat up past 220. and the fans dont even come on at 220 i believe they come on low 6v at 223(correct me if im wrong) this caddy has a mind of its own, but like i said before its way to nice not to fix it, its my mothers car, she really loves it, so ofcoarse i will fix it for her,

i feel bad for the people who own these cadillacs and have to take them in to get repaired on, i worked at a 6 stall shop/garage for many yrs, its highway robbery, no offense to any company/garage but thats the facts!

[Todd]

even heavy stop and go on a 100degree day 215 max-------- CORRECTION, typo.. i meant 225

[Cadillac Jim]

The symptoms you describe, running normally or slightly hot, with temperature spikes after climbing a hill or passing a car, are typical of a Northstar with mild head seepage. This is the combustion gases leaking into the coolant and causing steam bubbles, which interfere with the thermostat and cause temperature spikes. Checking the bypass and surge tank are good ideas because that causes the same symptoms. The definitive test at this point is to check for combustion by-products in the coolant with a chemical test kit or test strips. I would suggest that you get the coolant tested in your mother's car to definitively determine whether or not it has head gasket leakage, just to firmly decide what the repair must be.

Most mechanics nowadays charge $1500 to $2000 for a Timesert job, which is about right, $1000 for the R&R and $500 to $1000 for the work, including the Timesert kit and labor. The drilling and tapping is a long, tiresome job. But this wasn't always true.

There is no doubt that what most mechanics have charged in the past for head gasket repair on Northstars was excessive. I think some of that cost was CYI in case of comebacks, i.e. job warranty cost. The Timesert procedure, typical of insert repairs, is to use a guide and a slow, repetive process for drilling the block for the insert and also for tapping the threads. Dealer techs are paid by a flat rate per job, and beating the time that the flat rate is based on increases their income, so faster ways to work are developed all the time. Most are very good ways to work more efficiently, but lots of cases of Timesert failure were caused by not using the alignment tool, drilling out the head blots or tapping the threads with one operation, or even drilling all the way through the block, and inspection of the block material were not done, etc. etc. etc. Some dealers, of course, had no problems with their Timeserts, but once a tech discovers the shortcuts, the rest of them aren't going to use the alignment templates or the slow, repetitive drilling and tapping process either. And, that seemed to be the rule rather than the exception in the early and mid 2000s, because when I was looking for a Timesert job in 2006, the dealers weren't doing them anymore and my mechanic was afraid to do one because of what he had heard from the dealers, which was a major factor in my getting a Jasper. Jasper uses Timeserts and has a three-year warranty.

But what Todd Brown is describing, with a quote from "another site" and apparently is a car in his shop, the car isn't clearly described as a Northstar, but is implied to be one from the last post. Water in the oil is very rare in Nortstars, and the massive multiple problems with the cooling system could only happen with massively acidic coolant (which is why I raised the spectre of battery acid in the coolant) or a car that was neglected for a long time, such as sitting for years in the sun, possibly with the hood open, which would set the car up for massive sequential cooling system and other failures like BodybyFisher suggests. In a car like that, the coolant would have gone acid and many components would be failed or would fail as soon as the car was run for awhile.

If you get a car that has not been run for months or years, the first thing you do is flush the coolant and change the oil, before you start it. You might save a jar of coolant and oil for testing in case you need to answer some questions, but fresh 50-50 Dexcool and a carankcase full on new syntheic oil can be an enourmous time and money saver in taking a car out of long storage. Draining the gas tank and such may or may not be necessary, but if the car was stored outside this is likely also necessary to get the car running smoothly with minimum hassles.

I am *very* interested in how so much water got into the oil, particularly in a sudden event after the car was running.

[BodybyFisher]

see i was fine 190 on highway and about 200-206 reg driving, even heavy stop and go on a 100degree day 215 max, but recently when i would get off the freeway it would jump to 222-226 then imediatly go back to 200-206, (i always watch the temp more than the speedo,) haha but even before it started smoking it would loose coolant out the hose by cap

Those temps actually seem normal

What was not normal was the temporary miss in the morning but that could be an ignition wire or coil.

Losing coolant may not be related to the head gasket, many things like the radiator end tanks, crossover seals, water pump body seal, heater pipes, tank, radiator cap can leak under pressure where the coolant leaks and immediately vaporizes you dont see a leak, but you leak under pressure. Are you sure your coolant is 50/50, cooling fans working correctly, not just running but performing correct? I know you have posted them but repeat, what current codes if any are you getting (P codes)

Have you confirmed that you have combustion by-products in the coolant with a tester or sniffer, indicating a bad head gasket?

[Todd]

well it fouled out no 2 plug a month ago i replaced it and it has been fine, (plugs are not that old, maybe 5k miles on em) im gonna go out later and pull the plugs and find out which cylinder has coolant in it. ect.. the plugs should tell a story....

Have you confirmed that you have combustion by-products in the coolant with a tester or sniffer, indicating a bad head gasket? """"""

no tests done, or needed, as thats why it was building up and blowing out, simple common sense will tell that, but anyway that dont explain the smoke or water in oil,, if i kick it down or get on freeway is when it boils over typical city driving no problem, so i know its blowing combustion gases into collant, that has been my problem for some time but it never overheated, i just had to add coolant frequently,

others have been saying something about the oil cooler????? but if that was the case why is it huffing smoke? and if the cooler went wouldnt the oil also mix in the radiator????????? im pretty sure its the headgasket that caused the coolant in oil, and i know some say its not possible or very likely, but these n* have an open deck and anythinhg is possible, theres many spots the gasket could fail,, the open deck was a bad move by cadillac, and they soon realized that, also they should of had alot more than 10-bolts per head, they just cant hold the pressure/torque to much load on ea. bolt,

[Ranger]

im pretty sure its the headgasket that caused the coolant in oil, and i know some say its not possible or very likely

Lets say not very common, but as always, anything is possible.

the open deck was a bad move by cadillac

I would tend to agree.