knb Posted October 25, 2010 Report Share Posted October 25, 2010 Hi everybody! Today I tried to clean EGR valve and everything looked rather simple. After reinstalling the valve, the code seemed to go away. But running the engine for a couple of minutes resulted in non-stable rpm, sequential failure of power steering, power brake and engine stalling. After that the engine won't start During valve re-installation several small pieces of carbon fell into the intake hole, which I could not removed. The first thought is that these carbon pieces clogged some nozzle. Any ideas? Thank you! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BodybyFisher Posted October 25, 2010 Report Share Posted October 25, 2010 how big was the carbon that fell into the egr? Were you driving the car when this happened? Check the injector wiring connector its in the area Try to dump the DTC codes and see if any are set Had you disconnected the battery? Check all under hood relays to see if you leaned on any Put a fuel pressure gage on the fuel rail and see if you have pressure when the key is turned on Pre-1995 - DTC codes OBD1 >> 1996 and newer - DTC codes OBD2 >> https://www.obd-codes.com/trouble_codes/gm/obd_codes.htm How to check for codes Caddyinfo How To Technical Archive >> http://www.caddyinfo.com/wordpress/cadillac-how-to-faq/ Cadillac History & Specifications Year by Year http://www.motorera.com/cadillac/index.htm Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
adallak Posted October 25, 2010 Report Share Posted October 25, 2010 I do not think a couple of pieces of carbon could create no-start condition. What was disturbed during EGR cleaning? Vacuum lines? Check all the stuff out. The saddest thing in life is wasted talent Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cadillac Jim Posted October 25, 2010 Report Share Posted October 25, 2010 It sounds like something came unplugged on the wiring harness to me. -- Click Here for CaddyInfo page on "How To" Read Your OBD Codes-- Click Here for my personal page to download my OBD code list as an Excel file, plus other Cadillac data -- See my CaddyInfo car blogs: 2011 CTS-V, 1997 ETC Yes, I was Jims_97_ETC before I changed cars. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
knb Posted October 25, 2010 Author Report Share Posted October 25, 2010 1. how big was the carbon that fell into the egr? 2. Were you driving the car when this happened? Check the injector wiring connector its in the area Try to dump the DTC codes and see if any are set 3. Had you disconnected the battery? 1. sizes were less than 1/16" x 1/32", thickness ~ 1/64", I guess. 3 or 4 pieces like that 2. no, first I reinstalled EGR on cool engine and then drove for 1 or 2 minutes 3. no, I just disconnected wiring to the valve during the operation (could that be the root of the problem?) I do not think a couple of pieces of carbon could create no-start condition. What was disturbed during EGR cleaning? Vacuum lines? Check all the stuff out. almost nothing was disturbed - that's why it looked so strange to me: two fuel lines were mounted on the same screw as the valve but I just moved them away (2 cm off) during valve re-installation It sounds like something came unplugged on the wiring harness to me. may be... but, could that be if I started the engine after the operation and it ran for 1 or 2 minutes? anyway I'll check all the wirings that could be disturbed, and will dump the codes (if any) this evening, thank you! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
winterset Posted October 25, 2010 Report Share Posted October 25, 2010 Did you use any solvents? did the solvents run into the EGR assembly? must be very careful that no solvents get inside the assembly thru the pintle valve shaft. you may need to remove it, and make sure it is not stuck. I found that just spinning it with a torx bit on a drill for a minute works just fine., push it in & out as the drill is working. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ranger Posted October 26, 2010 Report Share Posted October 26, 2010 Was the EGR gasket removed without destroying it and was it reinstalled (or replaced). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
knb Posted October 26, 2010 Author Report Share Posted October 26, 2010 Did you use any solvents? did the solvents run into the EGR assembly? must be very careful that no solvents get inside the assembly thru the pintle valve shaft. you may need to remove it, and make sure it is not stuck. I found that just spinning it with a torx bit on a drill for a minute works just fine., push it in & out as the drill is working. I used liquid lubricant to remove deposits, and tried to avoid turning the valve upside down. I thought that rotating the valve with torx bit will unscrew something inside it , so I rotated it carefully clockwise and then counterclockwise Was the EGR gasket removed without destroying it and was it reinstalled (or replaced). the gasket remained stuck to the engine body so it was ok for re-installation so the issue resolved the following way: 1. I pulled the only PC1599 code - Engine Stall or Near Stall Detected (well, as it was noticed) 2. checked all wirings nearby, tubings and connections for cracks 3. checked electrical connections, even checked if I installed EGR valve in opposite way - everything was ok 4. I reset the code, tried to start the engine and after couple of seconds it started! 975-1050 rpm and rough, but started! Ran it for 1-2 minutes, turned off, repeated the cycle (no code came up). Each cycle reduced the startup time (to approx. normal) and idle rpm (to 700-725)! maybe that was clogging of something, so in the future while cleaning EGR valve it is better to avoid leaving carbon remains in the valve or intake tubes Thanks everybody for the tips! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cadillac Jim Posted October 26, 2010 Report Share Posted October 26, 2010 It all sounds normal for recalibration of the PCM after cleaning the EGR to me. -- Click Here for CaddyInfo page on "How To" Read Your OBD Codes-- Click Here for my personal page to download my OBD code list as an Excel file, plus other Cadillac data -- See my CaddyInfo car blogs: 2011 CTS-V, 1997 ETC Yes, I was Jims_97_ETC before I changed cars. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rockfangd Posted October 26, 2010 Report Share Posted October 26, 2010 Thats quite weird. When I bought my 96 Deville the light would come on once warmed up and throw a EGR code, so I removed the valve, cleaned the egr valve completely, replaced the gasket. Reassembled everything and started the car, it stalled so I held half throttle and restarted, It blew a lot of black soot and I drove it like I stole it, problem never came back To me it sounds like a vacumn leak at or very close to the intake that is causing your condition GM FAN FOREVER Nice, clean, luxury= fine automobile Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BodybyFisher Posted October 26, 2010 Report Share Posted October 26, 2010 I have a feeling that the EGR is stuck open, I would remove it and make should you did not push the pindle up and its stuck open, it needs to be closed Pre-1995 - DTC codes OBD1 >> 1996 and newer - DTC codes OBD2 >> https://www.obd-codes.com/trouble_codes/gm/obd_codes.htm How to check for codes Caddyinfo How To Technical Archive >> http://www.caddyinfo.com/wordpress/cadillac-how-to-faq/ Cadillac History & Specifications Year by Year http://www.motorera.com/cadillac/index.htm Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
joeb Posted October 26, 2010 Report Share Posted October 26, 2010 i also have a 96. i assume my egr is the same though it is a seville. my egr sticks occasionally. i have tried cleaning it. no difference. last week i drove 30 miles and the egr stuck open. car would not idle. at my destination i got a heavy rod and tapped the side of egr and swear i heard a "sproing" sound from inside the valve. might have been my imagination but than the engine ran fine. yes, i got the 1406 code as history for egr. so my egr valve sticks open. a person with money might replace the egr. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BodybyFisher Posted October 26, 2010 Report Share Posted October 26, 2010 I have cleaned my 96s EGR a bunch of time, and I have always said that it takes about 30 to 45 minutes to REALLY clean it. It takes LOTS of fussing with it, to STOP it from binding at its extremes, full open and full closed. I have used brass and steel 22 caliber HOPPS rifle cleaning round brushes bent as needed after dipping the bottom of the valve into carb cleaner for 20 or so minutes to get it really clean and non sticking Really work hard on them find brushes that can get in and get to the pindle's seat, turn the pindle with a torx while the brush is in place to clean the seat. Its worth the time Pre-1995 - DTC codes OBD1 >> 1996 and newer - DTC codes OBD2 >> https://www.obd-codes.com/trouble_codes/gm/obd_codes.htm How to check for codes Caddyinfo How To Technical Archive >> http://www.caddyinfo.com/wordpress/cadillac-how-to-faq/ Cadillac History & Specifications Year by Year http://www.motorera.com/cadillac/index.htm Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
scott y Posted October 26, 2010 Report Share Posted October 26, 2010 I basically do what you do BBF...an hour or so and you're good to go. Always purrs after an nice cleansing. I actually like and look forward to the job!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BodybyFisher Posted October 26, 2010 Report Share Posted October 26, 2010 I basically do what you do BBF...an hour or so and you're good to go. Always purrs after an nice cleansing. I actually like and look forward to the job!! As I am sure we are all aware, EGR dust is very bad for you, wear an appropriate mask and work outside Pre-1995 - DTC codes OBD1 >> 1996 and newer - DTC codes OBD2 >> https://www.obd-codes.com/trouble_codes/gm/obd_codes.htm How to check for codes Caddyinfo How To Technical Archive >> http://www.caddyinfo.com/wordpress/cadillac-how-to-faq/ Cadillac History & Specifications Year by Year http://www.motorera.com/cadillac/index.htm Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cadillac Jim Posted October 26, 2010 Report Share Posted October 26, 2010 Rock Auto sells EGR valves for the 1996 Deville for $123 to $185, depending on brand, AC/Delco highest. Lowest is Airtex/Wells, which probably the OEM. Delphi comes in at $162, which is second highest. -- Click Here for CaddyInfo page on "How To" Read Your OBD Codes-- Click Here for my personal page to download my OBD code list as an Excel file, plus other Cadillac data -- See my CaddyInfo car blogs: 2011 CTS-V, 1997 ETC Yes, I was Jims_97_ETC before I changed cars. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
winterset Posted October 26, 2010 Report Share Posted October 26, 2010 I basically do what you do BBF...an hour or so and you're good to go. Always purrs after an nice cleansing. I actually like and look forward to the job!! As I am sure we are all aware, EGR dust is very bad for you, wear an appropriate mask and work outside the EGR did get more difficult to remove for cleaning now that we all have stainless steel fuel rails! That Nylon fuel rail used to bend & twist so we didn't have to disconnect anything. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
knb Posted October 26, 2010 Author Report Share Posted October 26, 2010 It all sounds normal for recalibration of the PCM after cleaning the EGR to me. that, actually, makes sense: after cleaning, if the computer will detect too high combustion temperature it will open the valve too much (in comparison to the uncleaned/sticking state). But I haven't found on the web anyone who complained about such a rough start after cleaning the valve. Thats quite weird. When I bought my 96 Deville the light would come on once warmed up and throw a EGR code, so I removed the valve, cleaned the egr valve completely, replaced the gasket. Reassembled everything and started the car, it stalled so I held half throttle and restarted, It blew a lot of black soot and I drove it like I stole it, problem never came back To me it sounds like a vacumn leak at or very close to the intake that is causing your condition I'm not sure I've understood your point, but the valve (as I assume for every valve after 95) is fully electronically operated I have a feeling that the EGR is stuck open, I would remove it and make should you did not push the pindle up and its stuck open, it needs to be closed that could happen, but in my case the valve (before cleaning) was sticking in closed position. As it was cleaned - it had a full range without a problem! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rockfangd Posted October 26, 2010 Report Share Posted October 26, 2010 a vaccumn leak close to the intake or on the intake could caus rough idle and even stalling, GM FAN FOREVER Nice, clean, luxury= fine automobile Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BodybyFisher Posted October 26, 2010 Report Share Posted October 26, 2010 This has nothing to do with calibration, it must be closed at idle, it's default is closed. Anyway once the negative battery cable is removed the PCM will go through a relearn, but its not necessary for an EGR to START the car. If it is open for any reason, it will leak unmetered air into the intake, as we all know from the old days, if you hold an EGR open the idle will stumble and it can stall as a result. If an engine is cold an open EGR could stop it from starting due to a heavily lean mixture, but you say its not sticking. Is the EGR seated, with the fuel rail tab above the EGR frame? What else was done besides the EGR? There isn't really much that can cause a problem. What does it do just crank? Check to see if you accidently pulled the vacuum hose or broke the fitting off of the brake booster working in the area. Check all vacuum hoses that may have been removed Check for DTC codes Pre-1995 - DTC codes OBD1 >> 1996 and newer - DTC codes OBD2 >> https://www.obd-codes.com/trouble_codes/gm/obd_codes.htm How to check for codes Caddyinfo How To Technical Archive >> http://www.caddyinfo.com/wordpress/cadillac-how-to-faq/ Cadillac History & Specifications Year by Year http://www.motorera.com/cadillac/index.htm Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KHE Posted October 27, 2010 Report Share Posted October 27, 2010 Lowest is Airtex/Wells, which probably the OEM. AC Delco or Delphi would be the OEM part. There has to be a major vacuum leak in the area for the engine not to restart - like Bodybyfisher said, check the connection at the brake booster as well as any vacuum lines in the area that may have been accidentaly disconnected. Kevin '93 Fleetwood Brougham '05 Deville '04 Deville 2013 Silverado Z71 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
knb Posted October 27, 2010 Author Report Share Posted October 27, 2010 If an engine is cold an open EGR could stop it from starting due to a heavily lean mixture, but you say its not sticking. Is the EGR seated, with the fuel rail tab above the EGR frame? What else was done besides the EGR? There isn't really much that can cause a problem. What does it do just crank? Check to see if you accidently pulled the vacuum hose or broke the fitting off of the brake booster working in the area. Check all vacuum hoses that may have been removed Check for DTC codes There has to be a major vacuum leak in the area for the engine not to restart - like Bodybyfisher said, check the connection at the brake booster as well as any vacuum lines in the area that may have been accidentaly disconnected. The car is running now quite ok, I did nothing besides waiting for one day and then starting it several times. As I wrote previously, I did nothing else besides. Hoses, fuel rails and electrical connections were ok after EGR valve re-installation. The only code arose was PC1599 (Engine Stall or Near Stall Detected). The only thing that bothered me were fallen pieces of carbon from the valve to the intake hole (maybe they clogged something after). About fuel rails: how do you deal with these stainless steel tubes while removing EGR valve? Mine I just moved 2 cm towards the engine. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BodybyFisher Posted October 27, 2010 Report Share Posted October 27, 2010 A 1/16" piece of carbon is insignificant, it was not the cause And yes the fuel rail is a bit of a PITA, I typically lift my fuel rail to get at it, but it was easy on a 96 Pre-1995 - DTC codes OBD1 >> 1996 and newer - DTC codes OBD2 >> https://www.obd-codes.com/trouble_codes/gm/obd_codes.htm How to check for codes Caddyinfo How To Technical Archive >> http://www.caddyinfo.com/wordpress/cadillac-how-to-faq/ Cadillac History & Specifications Year by Year http://www.motorera.com/cadillac/index.htm Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rockfangd Posted October 28, 2010 Report Share Posted October 28, 2010 I was not happy when I did my 96 because I tried like hell to do it without pulling the rear bank and it was not possible.. Luckily my work paid off GM FAN FOREVER Nice, clean, luxury= fine automobile Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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