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MAC

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I went to my local Jiffy Lube for a coolant flush. I specifically asked for Dex-Cool three or four times and was assured that Dex-Cool would be used. Well, I looked at the receipt and it specifically says that Universal coolant was used. I went to a Cadillac dealership to discuss this and was told that Universal will not harm anything, however, it will last 1-year instead of Dex-Cool's extended 5-year service interval.

Should I do back to Jiffy Lube and hold them to my demand that Dex-Cool be used. This has me upset because I don't like to be pacified and lied to. Also, if the Universal coolant is not extended life like Dex-Cool, this means I will have to spend another $85 to change it next year or whenever replacement is required.

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I went to my local Jiffy Lube for a coolant flush. I specifically asked for Dex-Cool three or four times and was assured that Dex-Cool would be used. Well, I looked at the receipt and it specifically says that Universal coolant was used. I went to a Cadillac dealership to discuss this and was told that Universal will not harm anything, however, it will last 1-year instead of Dex-Cool's extended 5-year service interval.

Should I do back to Jiffy Lube and hold them to my demand that Dex-Cool be used. This has me upset because I don't like to be pacified and lied to. Also, if the Universal coolant is not extended life like Dex-Cool, this means I will have to spend another $85 to change it next year or whenever replacement is required.

I would be driving through their front window like a freaking MAD MAN

I would DEMAND to know if there were SILICATES in that coolant, as they just F'd up your COOLING SYSTEM if it does causing you to have to change the coolant more often, you have been damaged if so

Pre-1995 - DTC codes OBD1  >>

1996 and newer - DTC codes OBD2 >> https://www.obd-codes.com/trouble_codes/gm/obd_codes.htm

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I went to my local Jiffy Lube for a coolant flush. I specifically asked for Dex-Cool three or four times and was assured that Dex-Cool would be used. Well, I looked at the receipt and it specifically says that Universal coolant was used. I went to a Cadillac dealership to discuss this and was told that Universal will not harm anything, however, it will last 1-year instead of Dex-Cool's extended 5-year service interval.

Should I do back to Jiffy Lube and hold them to my demand that Dex-Cool be used. This has me upset because I don't like to be pacified and lied to. Also, if the Universal coolant is not extended life like Dex-Cool, this means I will have to spend another $85 to change it next year or whenever replacement is required.

I would be driving through their front window like a freaking MAD MAN

I would DEMAND to know if there were SILICATES in that coolant, as they just F'd up your COOLING SYSTEM if it does causing you to have to change the coolant more often, you have been damaged if so

What Mike said....

I would be SO ROYALLY PISSED, and throwing a WALLEYED FIT.

If the stuff they put in has silicates in it, they have damaged the cooling system as far as EVER being able to use extended coolant changes again.

At the VERY LEAST...they owe you yearly coolant changes for as long as you own the car.

There is no way that I know of to remove the silicates, once they are in there.

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If they used a universal "long life" coolant it probably does not have silicates in it. And if it is the G05 stuff, I would not worry at all. That seems to be the preferred switch fro those who do switch from Dex.

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If they used a universal "long life" coolant it probably does not have silicates in it. And if it is the G05 stuff, I would not worry at all. That seems to be the preferred switch fro those who do switch from Dex.

The reason why I said check for silicates was because they said it needed to be changed in a year...

Pre-1995 - DTC codes OBD1  >>

1996 and newer - DTC codes OBD2 >> https://www.obd-codes.com/trouble_codes/gm/obd_codes.htm

How to check for codes Caddyinfo How To Technical Archive >> http://www.caddyinfo.com/wordpress/cadillac-how-to-faq/

Cadillac History & Specifications Year by Year  http://www.motorera.com/cadillac/index.htm

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If they used a universal "long life" coolant it probably does not have silicates in it. And if it is the G05 stuff, I would not worry at all. That seems to be the preferred switch fro those who do switch from Dex.

The reason why I said check for silicates was because they said it needed to changed in a year...

Yeah, and how many dentists told you that you need your teeth cleaned and inspected very 90 days?

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If they used a universal "long life" coolant it probably does not have silicates in it. And if it is the G05 stuff, I would not worry at all. That seems to be the preferred switch fro those who do switch from Dex.

I just spoke by telephone to a Jiffy Lube tech at the place I had the radiator flush. While I don't know how versed he is concerning antifreeze, he told me that Jiffy Lube uses Prestone Universal coolant. But he also said that they did not use the Yellow extended life/150,000-mile coolant. He then said that manufacturers are recommending that original Dex-Cool be replaced with 2-year coolant. I don't know if this is true. However, I believe that GM still insists on replacing Dex-Cool with Dex-Cool. Some suggest that GM's is only sticking with Dex-Cool because it doesn't want to admit that Dex-Cool has problems including corroding gaskets. This could be true since GM has been sued numerous time upon allegations that Dex-Cool causes cooling system corrosion, as well as intake manifold and water pump gaskets to fail. Then again, it's only been assumed (at least to my knowledge) that Dex-Cool has caused these problems. However, I read that the gasket corrosion problems are not because of Dex-Cool, rather, as a result of bad gasket design.

There is still a lot of controversy over Dex-Cool. There are numerous posts in various forums all over the Internet telling people to nix Dex-Cool and go green. However, any coolant change from Dex-Cool mandates a complete cooling system flush at the very least. In one post, it was suggested that Water Wetter be used to help maintain gaskets. At this point, I must admit that I'm a bit confused. :rolleyes:

Should I force Jiffy Lube to replace the Prestone Universal and abide by GM's recommendation, which I believe is to replace Dex-Cool with Dex-Cool? Maybe at this point it would not be a bad idea to change antifreeze on no more than 2-year intervals?

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I must also say that I am aggravated over the fact that Jiffy Lube personnel changed the entire chemistry of my cooling system against my wishes. In other words, it looks like the coolant from now on must be changed every two years whether I like it or not. For this, Jiffy Lube should owe me. If Jiffy Lube at least used an extended life coolant then at the very least it would have preserved the extended life characteristics of my STS's cooling system.

Should I immediately get the system flushed again and make sure an extended life antifreeze is used?

Let's assume that my STS can no longer take advantage of extended life antifreeze. Accordingly, I should write a letter to Jiffy Lube and strongly suggest that the franchise must, from now on, provide free coolant changes every 2 years for my STS at half-price as long as I own the car. If the cooling system is no longer able to take advantage of extended life coolant, then Jiffy Lube needs to reimburse me for monetary damages, being the money that must be expended to maintain the cooling system on 2-year intervals instead of the maximum 5-year intervals. I'm not an opportunist when it comes to trying to extract money from people, but I must say that I am irked by the thought that I must expend additional money to maintain the cooling system because Jiffy Lube ignored my direct order to use Dex-Cool. Then again, based on the complaints about Dex-Cool, maybe Jiffy did me a favor.

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I would be driving through their front window like a freaking MAD MAN

I would DEMAND to know if there were SILICATES in that coolant, as they just F'd up your COOLING SYSTEM if it does causing you to have to change the coolant more often, you have been damaged if so

I agree with your assessment re: damages.

But I must say, your initial comment made me laugh. I pictured you driving the Cream Puff through Jiffy Lube's garage door. I shouldn't laugh, but the picture is pretty funny. :lol:;) Then again, you wouldn't go near a Jiffy Lube.

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I must also say that I am aggravated over the fact that Jiffy Lube personnel changed the entire chemistry of my cooling system against my wishes. In other words, it looks like the coolant from now on must be changed every two years whether I like it or not. For this, Jiffy Lube should owe me. If Jiffy Lube at least used an extended life coolant then at the very least it would have preserved the extended life characteristics of my STS's cooling system.

Should I immediately get the system flushed again and make sure an extended life antifreeze is used?

Let's assume that my STS can no longer take advantage of extended life antifreeze. Accordingly, I should write a letter to Jiffy Lube and strongly suggest that the franchise must, from now on, provide free coolant changes every 2 years for my STS at half-price as long as I own the car. If the cooling system is no longer able to take advantage of extended life coolant, then Jiffy Lube needs to reimburse me for monetary damages, being the money that must be expended to maintain the cooling system on 2-year intervals instead of the maximum 5-year intervals. I'm not an opportunist when it comes to trying to extract money from people, but I must say that I am irked by the thought that I must expend additional money to maintain the cooling system because Jiffy Lube ignored my direct order to use Dex-Cool. Then again, based on the complaints about Dex-Cool, maybe Jiffy did me a favor.

Mac,

I would make an appointment with the MANAGER of the Jiffy Lube and go talk to him rationally.

I would explain to him about no longer being able to safely run the long life coolant in the car because of what THEY did.

I would then ask for AT LEAST "4" free coolant changes because if they had did it right....you wouldn't have to change for another five years.

Now, per YOUR CADILLAC DEALER, you are going to have to change it every year.

At this point, I wouldn't much care WHAT the Jiffy Lube guy said about extended life...change every TWO years...Prestone...universal...etc...etc...etc.

YOUR CADILLAC DEALER said you are going to have to change every year.

PERIOD...

END OF STORY...

All they need to do is now make it RIGHT for you.

If the stuff they used has silicates in it...you are down to a one year change interval, no matter WHAT they say.

PS..Get it in writing. :D

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I would be driving through their front window like a freaking MAD MAN

I would DEMAND to know if there were SILICATES in that coolant, as they just F'd up your COOLING SYSTEM if it does causing you to have to change the coolant more often, you have been damaged if so

I agree with your assessment re: damages.

But I must say, your initial comment made me laugh. I pictured you driving the Cream Puff through Jiffy Lube's garage door. I shouldn't laugh, but the picture is pretty funny. :lol:;) Then again, you wouldn't go near a Jiffy Lube.

Glad I could add a little levity, :lol:

If I read your first post, they MISREPRESENTED the service they were going to perform on your car, saying that they would use DEXCOOL then used something inferior that is AGAINST GM's maintenance recommendation. Then back pedaled and told you the Dexcool story AFTER the fact.... That is called FRAUD/DAMAGE/MISREPSENTATION I think but I am not an attorney. Your average car owner would not know the difference and Jiffy Lube would make more money because of the increased frequency of coolant changes. They didnt even put in coolant that can be changed every 2 years

Pre-1995 - DTC codes OBD1  >>

1996 and newer - DTC codes OBD2 >> https://www.obd-codes.com/trouble_codes/gm/obd_codes.htm

How to check for codes Caddyinfo How To Technical Archive >> http://www.caddyinfo.com/wordpress/cadillac-how-to-faq/

Cadillac History & Specifications Year by Year  http://www.motorera.com/cadillac/index.htm

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I would also ask for a copy of the chemical components of the coolant they used, you want to see if it has silicates, unless they confirmed it does already... Anyway, what coolant lasts only 1 year anyway?, or is this their way of creating more cash flow?

MAC, come on, I dont want to say I told you so, but YOU of all people should know how we as a whole here feel about Jiffy. They bullshitted you up front that they would be using Dexcool, I'd be taken away in cuffs....that might be a funny thought, but believe it

Pre-1995 - DTC codes OBD1  >>

1996 and newer - DTC codes OBD2 >> https://www.obd-codes.com/trouble_codes/gm/obd_codes.htm

How to check for codes Caddyinfo How To Technical Archive >> http://www.caddyinfo.com/wordpress/cadillac-how-to-faq/

Cadillac History & Specifications Year by Year  http://www.motorera.com/cadillac/index.htm

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I'm much more pragmatic about these things. I would park next door to the JiffyLube and quietly ask a tech to show me the bottle that their coolant comes out of and read the label myself. Then I would quietly go home and decide what to do with my car.

The first thing I would do when I got home was forget about JiffyLube. They offer bargain services, you pay for bargain services, and if they put the cheapest bulk antifreeze the can find in your car then they are doing what a reasonable person would expect. I just wouldn't go back to them with my Cadillac. JiffyLube has its place in the world but I wouldn't take a high-tech $50K+ car there unless I had very special and specific arrangements with someone that I trusted to supervise or perform the work. The fact that the car is old now and KBB says it is worth only $x doesn't change my logic; a blind drop at a JiffyLube will not give my Cadillac the care that I expect when I have it serviced, and they really have no pretensions about that.

If their universal coolant has silicate in it (look for "sodium silicate" or "water glass" in the ingredients list) then I would look for a way to flush it out of the system, then do it and replace the coolant with OAT based coolant, i.e. DexCool. If it doesn't, then all I would do is flush the system myself in a year, or have a trusted general-purpose mechanic do it. Anytime that anyone else replaces the coolant, I would instruct them to use DexCool.

Regarding the controversies regarding DexCool, they are all news reports of lawsuits. If you look for the technical data, no one has ever proven anything except that running for extended periods with low coolant will cook the coolant and corrosion will proceed apace thereby. Cadillacs with their reverse-flow high-flow coolant system with low coolant DIC warning, sensitive temperature gauge and dual-speed fan, etc., make it just about impossible for a Northstar owner to run with low coolant for extended periods -- unles the driver ignores all the warnings or puts electrical tape over the DIC., AND ignroes the temperature gauge

The 1993-1999 Northstar head gasket issues appear after over 7 years and 100,000 miles (less miles on low-mileage cars in a few cases). No one has ever connected this with DexCool vs. green; in fact there has been no demarcation between early Northstars with green coolant and later Northstars with red coolant with regard to he head gasket issues. Think instead about your water pump bearings, and the fact that the whole world has gone to OAT based coolants and left green behind, particularly for car engines that have aluminum blocks or heads.

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-- Click Here for CaddyInfo page on "How To" Read Your OBD Codes
-- Click Here for my personal page to download my OBD code list as an Excel file, plus other Cadillac data
-- See my CaddyInfo car blogs: 2011 CTS-V, 1997 ETC
Yes, I was Jims_97_ETC before I changed cars.

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I would also ask for a copy of the chemical components of the coolant they used, you want to see if it has silicates, unless they confirmed it does already... Anyway, what coolant lasts only 1 year anyway?, or is this their way of creating more cash flow?

MAC, come on, I dont want to say I told you so, but YOU of all people should know how we as a whole here feel about Jiffy. They bullshitted you up front that they would be using Dexcool, I'd be taken away in cuffs....that might be a funny thought, but believe it

I told these people to use Dex-Cool at least 4 times and they totally ignored me. I will be writing a letter to Jiffy Lube's franchise headquarters. I remember the Guru saying that if non-Dex-Cool antifreeze is removed quickly it is possible that the long life characteristics could be saved. Anyone remember this statement by the Guru? I changed the antifreeze on Thursday.

Should I go to my local Oil Well and have them flush the system and put in Dex-Cool?

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Yeah, I remember that because before I knew better (or him) I put green silicated coolant in my wifes '96 Bonneville (because I still had some). I changed it back in a day or two and asked him about it and he said I should be OK. Still have the car at 160K and have had no problems.

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MAC:

I regret you had a bad experience with a fill-in-the-blank name "service" operation. You might get some kind of satisfaction from that company but I would not bet on the final outcome. At this point, I fail to see how you could demonstrate to a court that you have been damaged.

For those who cannot or choose not to do routine scheduled service items on their vehicles knowingly place themselves at the mercy of (someone). Given the service cost "might be" higher at a GM/Cadillac dealer, maybe that (someone) should be a GM/Cadillac dealer who would at least be armed with the latest service products information from the folks who engineered the vehicle.

Information available on the Internet regarding Dex-Cool is unverifiable and grossly untrue/misleading/anecdotal. Yes, there have been consumer class action law suits which GM chose to settle rather than incur ongoing in-house counsel and hired-gun attorney fees. And all of the Dex-Cool "problem" vehicles were equiped with V-6 engines of various years and models. None of that mud splashed on a Northstar engine. Maybe the V-6 engine cooling system design was the problem and not Dex-Cool?

Then we get to the June, 2009, GM bankruptcy filing! We are back to the first inning.

Good luck.

.....Cadillacs with their reverse-flow high-flow coolant system....

I have to challenge the "reverse-flow" part of this statement. That is categorically not true for the Northstar engine.

What is different or unique about the Northstar cooling system is the location of the thermostat. Period.

Jim

Drive your car.

Use your cell phone.

CHOOSE ONE !

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Yeah, I remember that because before I knew better (or him) I put green silicated coolant in my wifes '96 Bonneville (because I still had some). I changed it back in a day or two and asked him about it and he said I should be OK. Still have the car at 160K and have had no problems.

Thanks Ranger!

OK, I'm going to have the Universal antifreeze flushed out tomorrow and I will stand by and make sure Dex-Cool is used. I can drain the radiator several more times and refill with 50/50 Dex-Cool to make sure the system is totally devoid of the Universal stuff. I say this because my Coolant still has an Orange tint because Jiffy Lube did not totally flush the Dex-Cool out. So, it looks like I'm going to have to drain the radiator several times and refill with Dex-Cool in order to make sure the Universal stuff is gone.

Oh...By the way, my STS has over 150,000 miles on it and there isn't even a hint of any gasket problems. So, Dex-Cool didn't do a darn thing to the Northstar V8 in my STS.

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MAC:

I regret you had a bad experience with a fill-in-the-blank name "service" operation. You might get some kind of satisfaction from that company but I would not bet on the final outcome. At this point, I fail to see how you could demonstrate to a court that you have been damaged.

For those who cannot or choose not to do routine scheduled service items on their vehicles knowingly place themselves at the mercy of (someone). Given the service cost "might be" higher at a GM/Cadillac dealer, maybe that (someone) should be a GM/Cadillac dealer who would at least be armed with the latest service products information from the folks who engineered the vehicle.

Information available on the Internet regarding Dex-Cool is unverifiable and grossly untrue/misleading/anecdotal. Yes, there have been consumer class action law suits which GM chose to settle rather than incur ongoing in-house counsel and hired-gun attorney fees. And all of the Dex-Cool "problem" vehicles were equiped with V-6 engines of various years and models. None of that mud splashed on a Northstar engine. Maybe the V-6 engine cooling system design was the problem and not Dex-Cool?

Then we get to the June, 2009, GM bankruptcy filing! We are back to the first inning.

Good luck.

.....Cadillacs with their reverse-flow high-flow coolant system....

I have to challenge the "reverse-flow" part of this statement. That is categorically not true for the Northstar engine.

What is different or unique about the Northstar cooling system is the location of the thermostat. Period.

I must say that I'm aggravated that I was not listened to when I said to use Dex-Cool. I am certainly going to write a letter to Jiffy Lube and strongly request at the very least that they pay for the flush I'm going to have done tomorrow so I can have Dex-Cool re-introduced. After the drain, I looked at the machine and noticed the color of the coolant didn't look orange. So I went into the garage and specifically reminded the technicians that I want Dex-Cool. Again, they all assured me that they were using Dex-Cool. I'm not an antifreeze specialist so I took them on their word. It wasn't until I looked at the receipt that I saw that they used Universal coolant. What they did is totally wrong! And I'm going to make sure Jiffy Lube hears about it.

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I don't think any harm is or will be done MAC. I wouldn't loose any sleep over it. Personally I think coolant is much like oil. Put it in and change it is far more important than the brand. In the end, they all do the same thing.

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MAC -- something I did in the old days (really, really old...) to flush my system was to start with Prestone radiator flush and then take out the thermostat. I would then put the garden hose in the radiator fill and open the petcock, turn on the facet low, and run the engine at idle with just a little water overflowing the radiator until the drain water came out clear. I suggest that a radiator shop can do this with their equipment much more quickly and more efficiently; bring them your own thermostat.

JimD: There was a fundamental change in the way that cooling systems were done in the early 1990s. I don't know if the Northstar was the first but the LS1 does it too.

Basically, the old way was for the water pump to take cool water from the radiator (and block) and push it into the block and heads, where it would exit to the intake manifold (and heads) through the thermostat. When the thermostat is closed, the inlet accepts water from the block and the outlet is to the block and heads. Thus the thermostat regulates the head coolant temperature and a 195 F thermostat is used. because that's what is needed for modern emissions control with good engine performance.

The new way is basically different. The 1997 FSM p. 6-106, Cooling System Circulation, reads:

In the Northstar cooling system, the water pump takes coolant from the radiator and passes the coolant through the thermostat on the inlet side of the water pump. The coolant enters the block at the rear of the engine from the water crossover, then the coolant is routed through the cylinder heads back to the water crossover. At this point the coolant has four possible routes:

  • The radiator
  • The bypass
  • The heater core
  • The throttle body heater circuit

This is less than crystal-clear but two things stand out: the thermostat is at the water pump inlet as opposed to the engine outlet (a location change as you say), and the inlet to the water pump is from the radiator as usual but the output is across the thermostat temperature sensors, a major innovation that is impossible with the old scheme. Remember posts form the guru, which discussed how the Northstar cooling system minimized temperature differences across the engine? The old system accepted that the heads were hotter, and let the head temperature open the thermostat, thus a 195 F thermostat was used. In the Northstar, a 180 F thermostat keeps the head coolant at 195 F. This is because the thermostat is part of the water pump assembly and the entire cooling system is regulated at the thermostat temperature, not just the outlet temperature. Coolant is routed to the heads as first priority, then the block; this is the opposite of the coolant priority in the old system, and this is done in the LS1 also. Chevrolet calls the LS1 a "reverse-flow" coolant engine; I'm not making that term up. It's one of the reasons that the LS1 heads aren't interchangeable with the SBC or LT1 heads.

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-- Click Here for CaddyInfo page on "How To" Read Your OBD Codes
-- Click Here for my personal page to download my OBD code list as an Excel file, plus other Cadillac data
-- See my CaddyInfo car blogs: 2011 CTS-V, 1997 ETC
Yes, I was Jims_97_ETC before I changed cars.

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I don't think any harm is or will be done MAC. I wouldn't loose any sleep over it. Personally I think coolant is much like oil. Put it in and change it is far more important than the brand. In the end, they all do the same thing.

I'm pretty calm despite it all. I'm not one to let this keep me up. I learned a long time ago that anger is not good for one's health. Back in about 1993, I gave myself what seemed to be a migraine headache for 4 days because I became so angry. Since then, I promised myself that I would never get that angry again. I have kept that promise! Life is too short. I'll take care of this and deal with it the best I can. I will flush the system. I tend to believe the Dex-Cool protection will not be compromised as long as I get the Universal out quickly. It's not like I changed it to green coolant. The stuff Jiffy Lube put in is Universal, which I tend to believe gives me a wider window of opportunity to switch back. Thanks for the advice. I agree!

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I went to another Jiffy Lube for a flush and Dex-Cool. I had to go to Jiffy because they could do the flush without making an appointment and I wanted the Universal coolant out as soon as possible. They showed me what was removed and showed that they refilled with Dex-Cool. The coolant they removed was still orange in color--albeit a darker orange than the fresh Dex-Cool. The darker color is obviously because the Dex-Cool still remaining in the system mixed with the Universal. Now it's time to write a letter to Jiffy Lube's headquarters and try to get reimbursed the $117.69 (The advertised price is $89.95) I was charged to re-introduce Dex-Cool. So it looks like I was charged an extra $20 for some reason. Maybe they figured I own a Cadillac so I can afford an extra $20. :rolleyes: I was charged $85.59 for the Universal flush.

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