99 Deville Northstar Overheat

[KHE]

Based on that information, it is an improperly torqued balancer bolt or debris in the relief valve - hardly worth junking the engine...

[BodybyFisher]

Here is some more information on truants 1999 Deville that was left out of this discussion maybe this will clear things up, seems that the timesert job failed at 4400 miles and the dealer/warranty co. refused to honor the warranty.. I GUESS the oil pressure problem was RESOLVED???

http://caddyinfo.ipbhost.com/index.php?sho...=11942&st=0

[clarkz71]

Update??

[truant]

Ahh ha!

I thought I had added that to the thread.. my appologies.

Oil pressure was resolved.. they pushed it back in, found a loose connector (giving a false reading) fixed that.. and found that it was really no oil pressure afterall. Tech said that because it'd been sitting for 3-months that it was likely the releif valve got stuck. I don't know how he freed it up, but it's been fine since.

Got it back and drove it on highway at 55mph normally with cruise control for 4000 miles.

Picked up daughter from baby sitter and decided to enjoy my car when getting back into traffic (floored it). 20 seconds later i had a low coolant warning and steam under the hood. Pulled over, checked it out and sure nough.. blew about 1 or 2 gallons out of the expansion tank.

took it back .. they diagnosed without a teardown that the head gasket had been compromised. Told me that they called my aftermarket warrantee co .. and the warrantee co refused to replace the block. I told the shop that they (the shop) was on the hook for the block because they warrantee'd the timesert job. They then proceeded to lie to my face and say they were NOT covered under their 12/12 and told me they'd give me another engine (jasper as complete GM engines nolonger avail) as their cost or I could sue.

That's where it sits.

I don't drive it .. it just sits there asking for a monthly payment.

The leak is so bad that coolant pours out of the engine between the block and the head if I try to fill it.

I start it and allow it to idle once a week, shifting into and out of 1st and reverse a few times (I idle it between spaces) to keep the tires round and the tranny seals lubed.

Anyone want to buy a project car?

[truant]

Ohh and one more thing.

The northstar is a fairly reliable engine, as far as high performance engines made domestically go. It is not a reliable engine as far as high performance imports go, or a reliable engine as compared to most "daily driver" "working man" car engines.

That disconnect between "reliable working man's car engine" and "reliable high performance engine" is what got me. I was fooled by the 100k no maintainance hype.. Too bad it ended up being only an order of magnitude improvement over the Infamous Ht4100, which we had a good one of by the way in our '82 brougham. HA!

As far as taking my 90 brougham with 225K on a long trip in the summertime when a 99 deville with front and side airbags, better MPG and better seats was available??? who posted that??

Yeah.. I worked on broughams for years.. know everything about them. I've been through just about every part of those wonderful cars and their "not caddilac" cast iron block 307's and 350's.

Heck, I've turned bolts on the 478 (or was it 425) they had in '78.

So yes, I'm very mechanically inclined.. and if I owned my own house.. I would have bigserted my motor long ago and sold this pos for as close to what I bought it as possible.

sorry if my tone sounds a bit steamy. I'm rather put-out about my experience with GM, our long history notwithstanding.

To top it all off... my boss told me today "go buy a lexus. Just do it. Go tonight and buy one.. you won't be sorry"

Never thought I'd say it, but I'm starting to think he's right.

[JimHare]

Ohh and one more thing.

The northstar is a fairly reliable engine, as far as high performance engines made domestically go. It is not a reliable engine as far as high performance imports go, or a reliable engine as compared to most "daily driver" "working man" car engines.

I am very sorry for your troubles with your Deville and your obviously improper treatment from your dealer. No one should have to deal with that kind of BS.

That said, statistically I'd have to disagree with you, as there are approximately 843,000 Northstar-engined cars still on the road that have not had head gasket issues.

YOUR Northstar was not a fairly reliable engine, but it's incorrect to say THE (e.g., ALL) Northstar engines are not reliable.

Since early 2001, I have put about 185,000 miles in total on three different Northstar-engined cars, (including a 99 Deville) and have had ZERO engine related problems.

[adallak]

Kevin on Aug 30, truant said this "They pushed it in this morning.. hooked up a gauge, sure enough.. no oil pressure". I wish he would have come back and kept us up to date, that procedure you cited to force prime the pump was once cited by the guru...

And I remember a guy who actually went through this procedure successfully following guru's advise (GM recommends this procedure as well).

[BodybyFisher]

Ohh and one more thing.

The northstar is a fairly reliable engine, as far as high performance engines made domestically go. It is not a reliable engine as far as high performance imports go, or a reliable engine as compared to most "daily driver" "working man" car engines.

That disconnect between "reliable working man's car engine" and "reliable high performance engine" is what got me. I was fooled by the 100k no maintainance hype.. Too bad it ended up being only an order of magnitude improvement over the Infamous Ht4100, which we had a good one of by the way in our '82 brougham. HA!

As far as taking my 90 brougham with 225K on a long trip in the summertime when a 99 deville with front and side airbags, better MPG and better seats was available??? who posted that??

Yeah.. I worked on broughams for years.. know everything about them. I've been through just about every part of those wonderful cars and their "not caddilac" cast iron block 307's and 350's.

Heck, I've turned bolts on the 478 (or was it 425) they had in '78.

So yes, I'm very mechanically inclined.. and if I owned my own house.. I would have bigserted my motor long ago and sold this pos for as close to what I bought it as possible.

sorry if my tone sounds a bit steamy. I'm rather put-out about my experience with GM, our long history notwithstanding.

To top it all off... my boss told me today "go buy a lexus. Just do it. Go tonight and buy one.. you won't be sorry"

Never thought I'd say it, but I'm starting to think he's right.

Listen, the problem you have is that you stand on a soapbox and preach, you act like you know know it all and that you know better and because of that you are negative and looking down at the rest of the peasants that surround you. Your FIRST thread was "Lessons in Thermodynamics" and you spoke about FLAWS immediately and how YOU knew better.. How pompous was that? Imagine that, you are going to give US lessons...and point out flaws, what a way to influence people. I don't care what your history is, you need to relearn everything about these engines and you continue to state how mechanically inclined you are, big deal. Your experience on the NS is very narrow and you put yourself above the designers? If you open your eyes you will see that there are a TON of mechanically inclined individuals here most of which sat back and re-learned everything and stopped stating how many cast iron engines they have worked on. How many NS's have you torn down and timeserted?, those are the members that impress me here NOT the ones who have done cast iron head gasket jobs and worked on cast iron engines! I have a list of cast iron engine experience that would knock you over but I am continually impressed and take a back seat to our members who timesert their own engines. Direct experience on the NS is what counts!

If you look you preach and you are impressed with your abilities and didn't accept advice well in this thread. If you re-read this and your OTHER posts you post to you will see what I mean, please be objective if that is possible. Look at your NEGATIVE post in the water pump thread. When you had the OIL pressure problem you never returned to say, "it was fixed" or to ask, what is causing it? We KNEW how to fix the oil pressure problem! We have never heard anything POSITIVE from you, ONLY NEGATIVE. My experience is that people that think they are smarter than others, are self righteous, and refuse to take advice, usually fail and fail badly.

You had a bad experience with time-serting and you have a LEGAL case against either the warranty company or the dealer. The dealer who timeserted your engine screwed up, we have seen it a bunch of times. I wonder how your negative attitude played into your dealer saying 'take a hike' and sue us... You need to change your approach in life no one likes to be told by people who claim to know it all. Humility is a beautiful thing and it gets LOTS of help and attention. However, humility is hard to learn for people who think they know it all. Its time to move on, either sue to get your engine Big Serted, have them use a Jasper engine or buy a Lexus but keep your negativity to yourself, its unjustified here, WE did not mess up the timesert job.

[mmarinov]

Ohh and one more thing.

The northstar is a fairly reliable engine, as far as high performance engines made domestically go. It is not a reliable engine as far as high performance imports go, or a reliable engine as compared to most "daily driver" "working man" car engines.

To top it all off... my boss told me today "go buy a lexus. Just do it. Go tonight and buy one.. you won't be sorry"

Never thought I'd say it, but I'm starting to think he's right.

No, you won't be sorry; I should have bought a Lexus long ago too. My problem is economics...I'm just a "working man" and couldn't afford one of them there high performance imports so I ended up with this domestic POS which landed me here.

I'm sorry your particular Cadillac is problematic...either sue the shop (recommended) or buy a Camry XL and leave. You're so much smarter than everyone that there's no way you could lose in court. I'm sure the small claims judge will be very interested in the lessons you taught us all in thermodynamics...I know I was. Great bathroom reading if I may say so myself.

Your terrible attitude has sacked the last bit of sympathy I felt for you. Be sure to let us know about your Lexus post "Lessons in preventing engine sludge" once you reverse-engineer the problem.

Thanks!

Mark

[stefank]

truant,

sorry to hear about your bad luck and that the mechanic messed up your engine, but I think your conclusions are wrong.

My 96 SLS N* is one of the most trouble-free cars I ever owned. And it gets a fair amount of real high-speed driving over here. I hear a lot of praise from people all over the world too.

Sure, it isn't the old-style pushrod engine you took apart during your lunchbreak. But any other engine of that caliber isn't too, be it American, European or Japanese or whatever.

Stefan

[Cadillac Jim]

I once overhauled a single-cylinder two-stroke motorcyle around a camfire after supper and rode it home later that evening, a 50 mile trip. I have participated in overhauls of MG-A engines (machine shop said after question about cheap rings -- "These will go 20,000 miles and there will be something else wrong with this engine by then") Etc. etc. etc. but I was never under the impression that this gave me an edge on an all-aluminum DOHC V8 that has the thermostat on the cool water side, computers for the distributor, FI control, and transmission operation.

I have friends with Toyotas, Mercedes, and BMWs, and the occasional Lexus, and they are all great cars. The true test of a car is what happens after four years, the life of a typical lease. My observation is that there is no magic bullet there. Nearly any car will last if well maintained and treated well, garaged and the salt washed off, etc. But, how many 10-year-old BMW 7-series or Lexus or Infiniti V8's do you see out there? There are a whole lot of 10, 15, and 20 year old Cadillac V8s out there and they are driven by people who aren't rich enough to afford a part-time mechanic. We have a lot of members here who are like that, including myself

Example -- I know a fellow who had a 7-year-old Porsche 928 all-aluminum V8, who came in to work one day and asked what kind of engine a Cadillac had because a little old lady in one had kicked his... ah, ego. A couple of months later it backfired into the intake and shattered the fuel injection -- it didn't have a pop-out pressure relief like the GM fuel injections. The repair cost exceeded the value of the car.

I've had my Cadillac for over nine years how and have no intention of trading it in the foreseeable future. It's had its problems, all of them traceable to maintenance issues except a fuel pump connector at low mileage. But, it's the best car I've ever had, and I've been driving since the President was bald.

From what I can tell of your posts, your dealer did an incompetent short-cut Timesert repair that ruined your engine. The first thing I would do is escalate through the dealership and involve GM Customer Relations. Then, I would bring in a lawyer. If you call a lawyer first, he will tell you to escalate through the dealer and GM Customer Relations before he can do anything; a judge will through out a case if you haven't tried to get satisfaction through existing established channels before filing suit. If that doesn't do it for you, or if you're not comfortable with that, perhaps you need to re-think your position.

Before you buy a Lexus, Cadillac, or anything else, ask the dealer for it's service history, do a CarFAX check, have a mechanic look at it, and do a test drive. If it's a Cadillac, run the codes before and after the test drive. Good luck to you, and please post your maintenance issues here, Cadillac or Lexus or whatever.

[KHE]

Ahh ha!

I thought I had added that to the thread.. my appologies.

Oil pressure was resolved.. they pushed it back in, found a loose connector (giving a false reading) fixed that.. and found that it was really no oil pressure afterall. Tech said that because it'd been sitting for 3-months that it was likely the releif valve got stuck. I don't know how he freed it up, but it's been fine since.

Got it back and drove it on highway at 55mph normally with cruise control for 4000 miles.

Picked up daughter from baby sitter and decided to enjoy my car when getting back into traffic (floored it). 20 seconds later i had a low coolant warning and steam under the hood. Pulled over, checked it out and sure nough.. blew about 1 or 2 gallons out of the expansion tank.

took it back .. they diagnosed without a teardown that the head gasket had been compromised. Told me that they called my aftermarket warrantee co .. and the warrantee co refused to replace the block. I told the shop that they (the shop) was on the hook for the block because they warrantee'd the timesert job. They then proceeded to lie to my face and say they were NOT covered under their 12/12 and told me they'd give me another engine (jasper as complete GM engines nolonger avail) as their cost or I could sue.

That's where it sits.

I don't drive it .. it just sits there asking for a monthly payment.

The leak is so bad that coolant pours out of the engine between the block and the head if I try to fill it.

I start it and allow it to idle once a week, shifting into and out of 1st and reverse a few times (I idle it between spaces) to keep the tires round and the tranny seals lubed.

Anyone want to buy a project car?

How many miles on the car, what extierior color, what interior color, where is the car located, how much do you want for it?

Ohh and one more thing.

The northstar is a fairly reliable engine, as far as high performance engines made domestically go. It is not a reliable engine as far as high performance imports go, or a reliable engine as compared to most "daily driver" "working man" car engines.

That disconnect between "reliable working man's car engine" and "reliable high performance engine" is what got me. I was fooled by the 100k no maintainance hype.. Too bad it ended up being only an order of magnitude improvement over the Infamous Ht4100, which we had a good one of by the way in our '82 brougham. HA!

As far as taking my 90 brougham with 225K on a long trip in the summertime when a 99 deville with front and side airbags, better MPG and better seats was available??? who posted that??

Yeah.. I worked on broughams for years.. know everything about them. I've been through just about every part of those wonderful cars and their "not caddilac" cast iron block 307's and 350's.

Heck, I've turned bolts on the 478 (or was it 425) they had in '78.

So yes, I'm very mechanically inclined.. and if I owned my own house.. I would have bigserted my motor long ago and sold this pos for as close to what I bought it as possible.

sorry if my tone sounds a bit steamy. I'm rather put-out about my experience with GM, our long history notwithstanding.

To top it all off... my boss told me today "go buy a lexus. Just do it. Go tonight and buy one.. you won't be sorry"

Never thought I'd say it, but I'm starting to think he's right.

The DEALER screwed up your car... not GM. You need to go after the dealer to make this right and then you will have a trouble free car. A dealer screwed up the Timesert job on my '97 STS (before I bought it) and would not stand behind the work... I fixed it in my garage and I have put almost 10,000 miles on it since I fixed it. I still ask, if a DIY can successfully repair the Northstar engine, WHY CAN'T A TRAINED DEALER TECHNICIAN DO IT PROPERLY???????

A Lexus has it's share of problems also - sludged engines, timing belts that need replacement on a regular interval and the cost approaches that of Northstar headgaskets.... you never hear about that though as the news media has their own agenda and someone who switches to a foreign make will NEVER admit to ANY problems they expierence....

[buck7]

Go buy a lexus, if that floats your boat man, go right ahead, and don't dare say that lexus never have occasional problems. Hey, If I wanted a nice lookin toyota I would buy one, but I don't, and im stickin' with gm.

Good Luck,

Tell the lexus forum guys that all of us from cadillac said hi

Buck

[winterset]

I'm sure your just aggravated, as you tried to reverse the neglect of the previous owner, but your forces were mechanic who rushed, and screwed up the job. Personally, I wouldn't let either the warranty or dealer get away with this. They are hopeing you just "go away". They got what they wanted from you - $$, now they don't want to back up their work or warranty. In either case -

1) the person who sold you the car probably knew it had issues (maybe they poured head gasket in a can prior to sale)

2) the mechanic screwed up the timesert

When you cool down, Get the job fixed right, and I'm sure you will be happy. If you read other threads, you'll see that mechanics sometimes rush, and leave shavings in the timeserts, and the bolts end up pulling out. it shouldn't be hard to proove.

[steve6]

you got screwed, id be taking someone to small claims court thats for sure, it it was the warranty company, i'd be the shop that fixed it.

lexus aint a bad idea, maybe you can get one of those sludge prone engines....

[truant]

Whooo.. hit a sore note there didn't I... lexus.. hehehehe.

GM will rise and beat the imports.. know why? Brand loyalty. Heard on the news last night that GM thinks they lost a whole generation (mine) .. but not likely. They still have the caddy (although it's exterior/interior design is going through coniptions right now) and they still have the suburban. With those two.. they'll do well.

I caved in.. putting in a Jasper remanuf. this week.

Appologies for pride.. thanks for the input.

[Cadillac Jim]

truant -- who is paying for the Jasper? Not you, I hope.

[llaramie]

For the past two weeks I too have been experiencing what Truant went thru back in 2006. Overheating a 96 Deville (with 92,000 miles), where it hit 260F (268f at one point).

I pulled into the nearest repair shop, around the corner, thankfully, and had the water pump and thermostat replace at the time.

Two weeks later after a short 20minute drive, the car goes 260 again, right in front of my home parking garage-- it blows off some coolant. and i figure i will get it towed to

a nearby garage I trust. They spend some time noting that the car seems to be running fine, that pressure is holding okay and no leaks, the fans are operating as they should and that they cannot reproduce the issue. The coolant is green and dirty (with black rubber looking stuff) and has not been replaced except for what the last mechanic may have added. I have added GM pellets in the past(2 years ago); but not recently. The antifreeze i have used says it is safe for all cars (but it is green in color).

I now take it a half hour down the road, to a another trusted mechanic, who checks the purge line (and throttle-body warming line) and notes that all is flowing correctly.

He also bless the condition of the waterpump belt. and says all it can be is the head gasket. I ask him if he can prove it is a head-gasket issue, as i see no water in the oil dip stick; I see no goop on the oil cap that would of indicated water contamination. So to prove his point he brings up his emissions-diagnostic computer and is able to detect hydrocarbons in the coolant as the fluid expands into the surge tank -- The measurement varied between 7 and 30 units (i don't know what these units of measurement are).

He suggests its time for a different ride.

Now the car seems to be running fine; but i see that it runs in normal easy traffic between 197F and 222F; generally around 203 to 208 in slower traffic. Is this okay?

Will it run hotter in summer weather? If the issue was the purge line, that somehow is now clear, do the hydrocarbons that my last mechanic noticed necessarily mean it is head-gasket time?

Any help would be appreciated. Thanks.

[Ranger]

I ask him if he can prove it is a head-gasket issue, as i see no water in the oil dip stick; I see no goop on the oil cap that would of indicated water contamination.

Neither of those conditions will be present on a Northstar when the HG fails.

Now the car seems to be running fine; but i see that it runs in normal easy traffic between 197F and 222F; generally around 203 to 208 in slower traffic. Is this okay?

Yes.

Will it run hotter in summer weather?

Probably. It will get worse.

If the issue was the purge line, that somehow is now clear, do the hydrocarbons that my last mechanic noticed necessarily mean it is head-gasket time?

Yes.

You can borrow a block test kit from Autozone and just pay for the test fluid and run the test for yourself if you want to.

[mike5514]

I strongly recommend you do the test yourself the block/head gasket test is fast cheap and easy, make sure the coolant has had time to collect hydrocarbons and the test fluid is a strong blue, also make sure the tube is not contaminated by a previous user. This will erase all doubts. If the test shows you do not have a head gasket problem do a system pressure check also fast and easy plus free.Mike

[epricedright]

I strongly recommend you do the test yourself the block/head gasket test is fast cheap and easy, make sure the coolant has had time to collect hydrocarbons and the test fluid is a strong blue, also make sure the tube is not contaminated by a previous user. This will erase all doubts. If the test shows you do not have a head gasket problem do a system pressure check also fast and easy plus free.Mike

Funny you mention that. I suspected the fluid I received was "tampered" with because there was no seal on the bottle. I took it back to AZ to see if another bottle was the same and it also didn't have a seal, but it was lighter in color, which I thought was odd. Makes me think people are perhaps using some of the fluid and replacing it with water so they can get their $8 refund. What's your take on it?

Btw, I had to return the first kit I tried using - bubbles weren't coming up through the fluid. Either it was clogged or the bulb was defective. My second kit was brand new and sealed.

[KHE]

Why do mechanics replace the waterpump on these engines when they overheat??? The waterpump is never the cause of overheating on these engines.

[sprinter10]

Before you dump any more money in this I will go all in and bet that you have a leaking head gasket. overpreshurizes your water system. (Gets better temporarily when you put the 18 lb pressure cap.) you loose cabin heat due to the instant head of superheated gasses from the combustion chamber. I been through this driving my car like this for 7 months. I replaced everything it just gets worse and worse. Yes when I overheated teh radiator actually never got hot leading toward something in teh coolant system being clogged or malfuntioning. New radiator thermostat. holes in the thermostat. water pump, belt, etc i did it all. I finally took my engine out and pulled the heads off shure enough the head gaskets were blown on the front side of the motor. I never found oil in my water or water in my oil. under load when you open the throttle plate it preshureizes the cylinder a little more and pushes around the gasket instantly boiling the water in that area and causeing the water to stop flowing. you can limp around for a few more months risking damage to your car but I did it had it up past 270 on the side of the road. Pop it in nuetral while coasting and bring to 2,000 rpm right when it starts any signs of loosing cabin heat or overheating coolant. This speads up the water pump and can sometimes get the water moving with those gasses again. you will feel instant heat from your vents... Drive around in a lower gear keeping the engine above 1,500 rpm... you will see it for yourself. Myself my gasket was rusted and falling apart completly only one head bbolt came out with threads. I was the biggest person against northstar and the design myself. I think and engineer everything on our race cars and tried a lot before I gave in and pulled the engine. I was gonna put a thermostat in the upper radiator hose on the outlet side of the motor in a remote thermostat houseing but that would not have stopped the coolant loss due to the extra preshure in the coolant system. I used a Car scanner while I was driving and saw the temps are much hotter then what the instrument panel says I guess there are a few different points for the temperature. Theres no doubt in my mind that your problem is anything but a head gasket failure. What sucks is that when replacing the head gasket you must timesert the block due to the threads pulling.

[Cadillac Jim]

Which cylinders in the front bank had head leakage?

[sprinter10]

It looked to me that both front cylinders on both right and left bank had the worst of the leak I have pictures of the head gasket it was all black and discollored on that side between the cylinder and water jacket. The rear bank was the worst. I wasn:t able to confirm the witch cylinder was leaking the worst because the intake valves were bleading off so much I wasn't getting pressure readings to speak of. There was some excess carbon on them and I was getting blead down percentages as high as 88% cold. Yes I cranked the, otor over to the propper position and cranked it throughout its cycles with the air in the cylinder and still was leaking that much through the intake.