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99 Deville Northstar Overheat


truant

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One of the the mechanics I talked too was telling me that with the RWD northstar no longer requires haveing to drop the engine to get at the head gaskets repaired, from what I have seen in pictures and person, there does appear to be enough room now that the engine is in the conventional position.

He said in general its easier in some places, and harder in others in others but in general fives some extra room to repair it

To my knowledge the above is true, but I don't think there are any RWD Northstars that are having headgasket problems just yet.

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Jasper uses a graphite head gasket designed to seal the water passages on the Northstar. They timesert all head bolt threads and use oversize head bolts, with the clamping measured instead of the torque -- a more accurate method available only to manufacturers and large remanufacturers. They have an unconditional transferrable warranty that includes labor. They also have fixes for the oil burning and o-ring problems. I put one in in early July and love it, but don't have a lot of miles on it yet. See my thread on the Jasper in my personal car journal on this board.

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-- Click Here for CaddyInfo page on "How To" Read Your OBD Codes
-- Click Here for my personal page to download my OBD code list as an Excel file, plus other Cadillac data
-- See my CaddyInfo car blogs: 2011 CTS-V, 1997 ETC
Yes, I was Jims_97_ETC before I changed cars.

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Jasper uses a graphite head gasket designed to seal the water passages on the Northstar. They timesert all head bolt threads and use oversize head bolts, with the clamping measured instead of the torque -- a more accurate method available only to manufacturers and large remanufacturers. They have an unconditional transferrable warranty that includes labor. They also have fixes for the oil burning and o-ring problems. I put one in in early July and love it, but don't have a lot of miles on it yet. See my thread on the Jasper in my personal car journal on this board.

Jim how much was that engine from Jasper? Mike

Pre-1995 - DTC codes OBD1  >>

1996 and newer - DTC codes OBD2 >> https://www.obd-codes.com/trouble_codes/gm/obd_codes.htm

How to check for codes Caddyinfo How To Technical Archive >> http://www.caddyinfo.com/wordpress/cadillac-how-to-faq/

Cadillac History & Specifications Year by Year  http://www.motorera.com/cadillac/index.htm

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The OEM headgaskets are compacted graphite as well. The clamping force measurement is a result of the torque to angle procedure in tightening the head bolts. By torquing to angle, friction is removed from the equation and X degrees = X distance of clamping based on the thread pitch.

I'm not sure how Jasper uses oversized head bolts as there is not much room to get the OEM bolts past the cams in certain areas.

Kevin
'93 Fleetwood Brougham
'05 Deville
'04 Deville
2013 Silverado Z71

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B)

Hey All,

It gets even better now. The car was fully Tserted and test driven 100miles by the tech. He found a bad alternator.. repaired that and test drove again.. no issues. So he parked it and they told me it was ready.

I show up, pay the reduced bill with glee (they're working hard to make a good customer), and take the keys to the car. I get in, start the engine and take a moment to feel the steering wheel back in my hands. DING DING DING!! "Low Oil Pressure" is the alarm.

Key off in about 1/2 second. "What was that" I wonder.

They pushed it in this morning.. hooked up a gauge, sure enough.. no oil pressure. Nobody went into the bottom of the engine.. I wonder what could cause that??

Ideas?

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B)

Hey All,

It gets even better now. The car was fully Tserted and test driven 100miles by the tech. He found a bad alternator.. repaired that and test drove again.. no issues. So he parked it and they told me it was ready.

I show up, pay the reduced bill with glee (they're working hard to make a good customer), and take the keys to the car. I get in, start the engine and take a moment to feel the steering wheel back in my hands. DING DING DING!! "Low Oil Pressure" is the alarm.

Key off in about 1/2 second. "What was that" I wonder.

They pushed it in this morning.. hooked up a gauge, sure enough.. no oil pressure. Nobody went into the bottom of the engine.. I wonder what could cause that??

Ideas?

They wouldn't touch the bottom of the engine for a headgasket job... Two ideas come to mind: 1) maybe the oil pressure sending unit was not plugged in - probably not since you noted no oil pressure with the mechanical gage. 2) If they did not torque the harmonic balancer pulley bolt properly, the oil pump will not turn. There is a static torque spec. (X ft-lbs) and then the bolt must be tightened an additional 120 degrees. If they missed this step, the oil pump will not turn and there won't be any oil pressure.

Kevin
'93 Fleetwood Brougham
'05 Deville
'04 Deville
2013 Silverado Z71

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Kevin, supposedly the tech drove the car 100 miles, and no oil pressure light showed. Could debris from the time-sert job have fouled the pressure relief valve in the pump hanging it open?

Pre-1995 - DTC codes OBD1  >>

1996 and newer - DTC codes OBD2 >> https://www.obd-codes.com/trouble_codes/gm/obd_codes.htm

How to check for codes Caddyinfo How To Technical Archive >> http://www.caddyinfo.com/wordpress/cadillac-how-to-faq/

Cadillac History & Specifications Year by Year  http://www.motorera.com/cadillac/index.htm

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BodybyFisher:

Jim how much was that engine from Jasper? Mike
From memory, the engine was about $4800, just a few hundred less than a new engine from GM. Installation was about $1600 ( the bill included resurfacing the brakes), typical of a Northstar R&R. I also bought the Jasper installation kit for $300 (gaskets, plugs, plug wires, radiator hoses, etc.) and bought all the heater and bypass hoses, including the metal ones behind the engine, and replaced the one heated oxygen sensor that is hard to get at when the engine is in. See my owner's log on this forum for more detail.

KHE:

The OEM head gaskets are compacted graphite as well. The clamping force measurement is a result of the torque to angle procedure in tightening the head bolts. By torqueing to angle, friction is removed from the equation and X degrees = X distance of clamping based on the thread pitch.

I'm not sure how Jasper uses oversized head bolts as there is not much room to get the OEM bolts past the cams in certain areas.

The clamping force is determined in manual installations by the torque-and-twist specs. In manufacture and large remanufacturing facilities such as Jasper, the clamping force of each head bolt is measured individually, a far more precise method that takes into account differences between bolts, thread friction in torqueing, compression of the head gasket during the process, etc. You get torque-and-twist at the dealer, mechanics, and most rebuilders. You get direct clamping force measurement from GM and large remanufacturers.

The heads of the bolts were noticeably larger in the Jasper. This may or may not mean that the shafts of the bolts are larger. GM recommends that you use new head bolts, and Jasper always does. Since the head bolts on aluminum engines (you can identify them by torque-and-twist specs in the manuals) are tension springs when installed, to allow for differences in thermal expansion between the aluminum and the steel bolt, you don't want to make them too thick. I believe that the difference in the head of the bolt may be to mark the engine as having been Timeserted for the benefit of any future mechanic (if the stock head bolt Allan wrench doesn't fit, the bolt has been changed...).

Please look at the journal on my car on this forum for more detail. Feel free to ask questions there as well as here; we don't want to confuse this thread too much.

CTS-V_LateralGs_6-2018_tiny.jpg
-- Click Here for CaddyInfo page on "How To" Read Your OBD Codes
-- Click Here for my personal page to download my OBD code list as an Excel file, plus other Cadillac data
-- See my CaddyInfo car blogs: 2011 CTS-V, 1997 ETC
Yes, I was Jims_97_ETC before I changed cars.

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BodybyFisher:

Jim how much was that engine from Jasper? Mike
From memory, the engine was about $4800, just a few hundred less than a new engine from GM. Installation was about $1600 ( the bill included resurfacing the brakes), typical of a Northstar R&R. I also bought the Jasper installation kit for $300 (gaskets and radiator hoses) and bought all the heater and bypass hoses, including the metal ones behind the engine, and replaced the one heated oxygen sensor that is hard to get at when the engine is in. See my owner's log on this forum for more detail.

KHE:

The OEM head gaskets are compacted graphite as well. The clamping force measurement is a result of the torque to angle procedure in tightening the head bolts. By torqueing to angle, friction is removed from the equation and X degrees = X distance of clamping based on the thread pitch.

I'm not sure how Jasper uses oversized head bolts as there is not much room to get the OEM bolts past the cams in certain areas.

The clamping force is determined in manual installations by the torque-and-twist specs. In manufacture and large remanufacturing facilities such as Jasper, the clamping force of each head bolt is measured individually, a far more precise method that takes into account differences between bolts, thread friction in torqueing, compression of the head gasket during the process, etc. You get torque-and-twist at the dealer, mechanics, and most rebuilders. You get direct clamping force measurement from GM and large remanufacturers.

The heads of the bolts were noticeably larger in the Jasper. This may or may not mean that the shafts of the bolts are larger. GM recommends that you use new head bolts, and Jasper always does. Since the head bolts on aluminum engines (you can identify them by torque-and-twist specs in the manuals) are tension springs when installed, to allow for differences in thermal expansion between the aluminum and the steel bolt, you don't want to make them too thick. I believe that the difference in the head of the bolt may be to mark the engine as having been Timeserted for the benefit of any future mechanic (if the stock head bolt Allan wrench doesn't fit, the bolt has been changed...).

Please look at the journal on my car on this forum for more detail. Feel free to ask questions there as well as here; we don't want to confuse this thread too much.

This sounds like marketing hype from Jasper. I'm not degrading them as they have a good reputation. The engine assembly plant has a multi-spindle machine with rotary encoders that monitor each bolt rotation. The clamping force is a resultant of the gasket compression which is dictated by the thread pitch. The Northstar head bolts are M11x1.5 and the three 60 degree passes = 180 degrees of bolt rotation or .75mm of gasket compression.

The only way I could think of to measure the actual clamp load is for a pressure transducer between the head and gasket which would damage the gasket.

It is interesting that the heads of the Jasper bolts are larger than the stock bolts - a nice indicator that the bolts have been replaced. The OEM parts I used when I repaired my engine were identical to those I removed.

Kevin
'93 Fleetwood Brougham
'05 Deville
'04 Deville
2013 Silverado Z71

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KHE:

This sounds like marketing hype from Jasper. I'm not degrading them as they have a good reputation. The engine assembly plant has a multi-spindle machine with rotary encoders that monitor each bolt rotation. The clamping force is a resultant of the gasket compression which is dictated by the thread pitch. The Northstar head bolts are M11x1.5 and the three 60 degree passes = 180 degrees of bolt rotation or .75mm of gasket compression.

The only way I could think of to measure the actual clamp load is for a pressure transducer between the head and gasket which would damage the gasket.

It is interesting that the heads of the Jasper bolts are larger than the stock bolts - a nice indicator that the bolts have been replaced. The OEM parts I used when I repaired my engine were identical to those I removed.

Your skepticism about direct measurement of clamping force is more than understandable. Direct measurement of clamping force is not trivial, and they didn't explain to me exactly how it is done. I would expect that it is an automated process based on modern manufacturing technology, which is why I assume that GM and other manufacturers use it. One way that I can figure that direct measurement is implemented is to torque the head with force measurement washers under every bolt, and measure the bolt head angle. Then, replace the bolts without the measurement washers with the same bolt angle, compensated for removal of the measurement washer. Perhaps this could be done one-at-a-time to keep the head gasket clamped.

The clamping is a result of bolt tension (and maintained by bolt stretching -- the tension spring!) and head gasket compression. A certain amount of head warping must come into play, even with a head that is perfectly flat when off, due to stresses from the head bolts. If the threads were at the top of the block, then the first time the engine got really hot the gasket would compress and you would never have good head gasket sealing again -- as in the early Nash Rambler all-aluminum straight sixes. A long bolt with the threads at the bottom of the hole allows a specific length of the bolt for a tension spring. Stretch that spring an exactly specified amount (the twist in the torque-and-twist times the thread pitch, minus the gasket compression) and you have a specified clamping force -- for a cold engine.

It's possible that they fine-tune the twist from a number of measurements and use a one-step process, but that is simply a better way of doing the torque-and-twist. I would think that when they say that they do a direct measurement of clamping force, that they use a two-step process or other method that actually measures the clamping force for each bolt.

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-- Click Here for CaddyInfo page on "How To" Read Your OBD Codes
-- Click Here for my personal page to download my OBD code list as an Excel file, plus other Cadillac data
-- See my CaddyInfo car blogs: 2011 CTS-V, 1997 ETC
Yes, I was Jims_97_ETC before I changed cars.

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KHE:

This sounds like marketing hype from Jasper. I'm not degrading them as they have a good reputation. The engine assembly plant has a multi-spindle machine with rotary encoders that monitor each bolt rotation. The clamping force is a resultant of the gasket compression which is dictated by the thread pitch. The Northstar head bolts are M11x1.5 and the three 60 degree passes = 180 degrees of bolt rotation or .75mm of gasket compression.

The only way I could think of to measure the actual clamp load is for a pressure transducer between the head and gasket which would damage the gasket.

It is interesting that the heads of the Jasper bolts are larger than the stock bolts - a nice indicator that the bolts have been replaced. The OEM parts I used when I repaired my engine were identical to those I removed.

Your skepticism about direct measurement of clamping force is more than understandable. Direct measurement of clamping force is not trivial, and they didn't explain to me exactly how it is done. I would expect that it is an automated process based on modern manufacturing technology, which is why I assume that GM and other manufacturers use it. One way that I can figure that direct measurement is implemented is to torque the head with force measurement washers under every bolt, and measure the bolt head angle. Then, replace the bolts without the measurement washers with the same bolt angle, compensated for removal of the measurement washer. Perhaps this could be done one-at-a-time to keep the head gasket clamped.

The clamping is a result of bolt tension (and maintained by bolt stretching -- the tension spring!) and head gasket compression. A certain amount of head warping must come into play, even with a head that is perfectly flat when off, due to stresses from the head bolts. If the threads were at the top of the block, then the first time the engine got really hot the gasket would compress and you would never have good head gasket sealing again -- as in the early Nash Rambler all-aluminum straight sixes. A long bolt with the threads at the bottom of the hole allows a specific length of the bolt for a tension spring. Stretch that spring an exactly specified amount (the twist in the torque-and-twist times the thread pitch, minus the gasket compression) and you have a specified clamping force -- for a cold engine.

It's possible that they fine-tune the twist from a number of measurements and use a one-step process, but that is simply a better way of doing the torque-and-twist. I would think that when they say that they do a direct measurement of clamping force, that they use a two-step process or other method that actually measures the clamping force for each bolt.

I seriously doubt the GM engine assembly plant torques and re-torques each head bolt with a load-cell under the bolt head that would take an incredibl amount of time per engine. That is likely how the angular values were developed but they would not do that to every engine in a high-volume manufacturing operation. I recall our guru saying that the CNC equipment in the engine assembly plant uses precision rotary encoders to monitor the torque angle. Friction is not an issue due to the low 22 ft-lb. initial torque of the bolts.

Kevin, supposedly the tech drove the car 100 miles, and no oil pressure light showed. Could debris from the time-sert job have fouled the pressure relief valve in the pump hanging it open?

I doubt the tech. drove the car 100 miles... - it's hard enough to get them to take a 10 minute test drive much less a 2-hour drive on a warranty job.

It's hard to say what's happening here - If it were my car, I'd have them loosen and re-torque the balancer bolt and see if it had oil pressure.

Kevin
'93 Fleetwood Brougham
'05 Deville
'04 Deville
2013 Silverado Z71

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Oh I agree, 100 miles seemed excessive, unless he drove it for a couple of days back and forth to work... but I would find that to be risky for a shop in case of an accident. So yes, 100 miles on his TIME seems like an exaggeration. I have to look at the harmonic balancer to understand why it affects oil pressure,, Thanks

Pre-1995 - DTC codes OBD1  >>

1996 and newer - DTC codes OBD2 >> https://www.obd-codes.com/trouble_codes/gm/obd_codes.htm

How to check for codes Caddyinfo How To Technical Archive >> http://www.caddyinfo.com/wordpress/cadillac-how-to-faq/

Cadillac History & Specifications Year by Year  http://www.motorera.com/cadillac/index.htm

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Hi, the head bolt torquing stuff is interesting and all, but not critical to the thread. Also as an FYI, an automated machine doing the torque would not have to allow the bolt to "stop" turning when transitioning from ft-lb of torque to simple angle of rotation. It would just remember the angle at which X ft-lbs was obtained and command xdegrees more. This really takes the friction element out of the equation because the bolt doesn't stop and require the break-free of static friction.

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Oh I agree, 100 miles seemed excessive, unless he drove it for a couple of days back and forth to work... but I would find that to be risky for a shop in case of an accident. So yes, 100 miles on his TIME seems like an exaggeration. I have to look at the harmonic balancer to understand why it affects oil pressure,, Thanks

Driving a customer's car for personal use, even for an extended drive test, can be difficult to explain to the insurance company if there is the slightest accident. Since that long a test drive isn't called for, I suspect that it is a bit of an exaggeration, but probably not at all intentionally deceptive. I do find it a bit surprising that a technician would miss a step such as the extra 120 degrees of crankshaft bolt angle.

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-- Click Here for CaddyInfo page on "How To" Read Your OBD Codes
-- Click Here for my personal page to download my OBD code list as an Excel file, plus other Cadillac data
-- See my CaddyInfo car blogs: 2011 CTS-V, 1997 ETC
Yes, I was Jims_97_ETC before I changed cars.

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Oh I agree, 100 miles seemed excessive, unless he drove it for a couple of days back and forth to work... but I would find that to be risky for a shop in case of an accident. So yes, 100 miles on his TIME seems like an exaggeration. I have to look at the harmonic balancer to understand why it affects oil pressure, Thanks

The inner surface of the balancer mates against a drive collar that is between the balancer and the inner portion of the gerotor oil pump. If the balancer bolt is not tight, it will slip against the collar and the oil pump will not turn.

Kevin
'93 Fleetwood Brougham
'05 Deville
'04 Deville
2013 Silverado Z71

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Thanks Kevin

Pre-1995 - DTC codes OBD1  >>

1996 and newer - DTC codes OBD2 >> https://www.obd-codes.com/trouble_codes/gm/obd_codes.htm

How to check for codes Caddyinfo How To Technical Archive >> http://www.caddyinfo.com/wordpress/cadillac-how-to-faq/

Cadillac History & Specifications Year by Year  http://www.motorera.com/cadillac/index.htm

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I don't know why, but a while back, my car was sitting in the garage unused for several months. when I started it, the oil light would flicker. I was going to change the sending unit, but was unable to get to it. I purchased the socket & all. I finally pulled the electrical connector off, and blew compressed air to clean the fresh oil buildup around the connector, once connected again, the oil light flicher went away. the car sat again for a few weeks, and it happened again. I kinda suspect you have the same type of problem. I would think if no oil flowing in the engine will sound like hell. if the flicker stays on for like 4 seconds, the warning message appears. I know I need to change both oil sensors soon, as I always get the "check oil level" when I start the car in the morning.

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  • 4 months later...

I'm back, dealer is quoted a jasper install at $5454.00

Think it's a good deal for an old car?

I'm hoping to get that knocked down a bit, even though it is very reasonable for a new engine with a 3yr 75k war.

Did I miss something? Last I saw you write, the warranty company paid for all but the Timesert installation, and there was no oil pressure when started.

What's the news?

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The last we heard, the timesert job was done and there was an oil pressure problem. Now an inquiry about a Jasper engine install..

Please update as to the outcome of the oil pressure

Pre-1995 - DTC codes OBD1  >>

1996 and newer - DTC codes OBD2 >> https://www.obd-codes.com/trouble_codes/gm/obd_codes.htm

How to check for codes Caddyinfo How To Technical Archive >> http://www.caddyinfo.com/wordpress/cadillac-how-to-faq/

Cadillac History & Specifications Year by Year  http://www.motorera.com/cadillac/index.htm

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Hi All,

99 Deville with Northstar 4.6L. 90,000 miles.

I am an Electrical Engineer.. meaning I've studied thermodynamics (heat transfer).

I've been fixing Caddy's (mostly broughams) and other cars, boats, bikes, diesels.. you name it for 18years. However, this is my first "modern" vehicle.

History:

September: Bought car for my wife. Enjoyed it through the winter.

Feb: leaking water pump. dealer replaced under warrantee.

March: Noted "check coolant level" on display. Added 50/50 dex cool.

April: Noted "check coolant level" on display. Added 50/50 dex cool. (Noted no visible leaks on car or ground)

Late April: Took to dealer (stalling) is under warrantee.

They found: sticking EGR valve.. replaced under warrantee. recommended intake cleaning (I did this myself).

May: Noted "check coolant level" on display. Added 50/50 dex cool (1/2 gallon each time).

May: Noted (to my shock) sudden loss of 2qts oil. (I run 10w30 mobil-one fully synth) Added 2 qts to bring back to full.

May: Noted loss of oil qrt #3. Added 1qrt.

May: Stalling again.. brought to dealer for what was I assumed a sooted EGR valve, and told them of coolant leaking and oil loss (I found weeping oil pan gasket).

They found: EGR sticking.

They also found "leaking coolant crossover pipe.. it's 5 hours labor.. your warrantee covers it."

Here's where it gets interesting.

I said "go for it, but I need the car for memorial day weekend travel (our other caddy is a 1990 brougham 225,000mile driver her to work cause she runs great, but no long trips vehicle).

They said "we can do it in time".. so that thursday morning they call me and say "opps the parts are not on the shelf.. we need to order them.. so come get your car, you can drive it because it's only a small leak and bring it back next week." I said "ok" and drove it away, packed it, and took off up the road.

At 80mph in heavy traffic the overheating began. At 250 or so I noticed the coolant temp (it was a hot day so I was watching it anyway). It kept going to 260, and auto shut my ac off.. (I switched to econ mode and 90F temp got some heat for a minute.. ). At this point I'm coasting in neutral with engine idle.. I finished coasting through a toll and it commanded engine hot / engine off, I lost my cabin heat at the same time, so I knew I was in trouble. I did as instructed, killed ignition and pulled over.

Called the dealership.. they told me it might be the thermostat.. so I pulled it out on the highway and refilled strait water. This got me home.. however she still overheated with no thermostat. The tech told me it was because there was no thermostat (which makes sense now.. the thermostat is a funny shaped one that plugs one hole in the engine (partially).

... I made it back at 55mph dropping to much slower on the hills.. still took three stops to add water to make it all the way.

Horrors begin: Noted as I pulled thermostat from the LOWER hose of the radiator that she poured GREEN antifreeze on the ground (sorry environmentalists.. I was stuck). I'm told (is this a myth) that GREEN + ORANGE antifreeze = GOO, or JELLO.

...

The Next Week: Took back to dealer and told them to repair. They replaced thermostat, fixed the coolant crossover pipe, super duper power flushed with a few extra solvants.. "road tested" and gave it back to me.

I gave it to my wife and she overheated on highway at 55 + hills.

I took it an nursed it home (just a few miles this time.

I gave it back to the dealer.. their tech spent all day with it and came up with "defective pressure cap". That was the most expensive pressure cap ever bought ($76).

.. needless to say.. that didn't work.

SO:

OK. Spent saturday afternoon with brother in law Mike at his place. We did a good flush with his garden hose, found everything open except for the air purge line. It was full of rusty muck. This is the "hollow bolt" referred to as being above the water pump. I cleaned this and was able to feel my screwdriver sticking through into the engine.

Discoveries:

The Northstar engine is flawed. The thermostat was placed on the cold water RETURN LINE from the radiator, instead of on the HOT WATER OUT of the engine (as on an old brute like the chevy 350). This design (intended I'm sure) prevents the engine from cooling itself quickly, and makes it terribly sensitive to any change in cooling system performance. This is undoubtedly necessary to prevent massive (rapid) changes in tolerance with the aluminum engine block.

We drilled holes in one thermostat and found that (with the use of two digital (+/-0.2 deg.F accurate, 1 second update) temperature probes INSIDE the upper and lower radiator hoses) that the thermostat opens and shuts itself very quickly. With a new (unmodified) thermostat I found that when the engine is at 230 degrees the thermostat can oscillate open and closed open and closed because the radiator fans are turned on at a higher speed and the return water is actually TOO COLD for the thermostat to remain open, so it shuts and the engine temp rises .. it opens the engine temp falls and it closes and repeat.

After 3 hours of micking with this and that We replaced the thermostat, went with an 18PSI pressure cap, and retested with strait water. The engine performed much better (we did all of our testing at idle or reving the engine). After much investigation, I decided I was content with the improved performance with the air-purge line now being open, so we refilled with 60% antifreeze (50% is OK, but 70% is the absolute best performance of the stuff) and drove it home (150miles).

On the highway at 80MPH in moderate traffic (2.5 people in car + tools and 10 gallons of extra water in trunk) I hit 260F once, .. what I noticed with my embedded temperature probes (inside both the radiator hoses, 2 inches from the engine) is that the thermostat stays at least partially open when just driving along.. this keeps engine temp at about 205 .. more or less where it should be. However, hit the power (not WOT, but just traffic negotiating on hills), the temp rises (three water pipes come together behind the thermostat to give it an indication of engine temp) then the thermostat opens more (as desired) but the rush of cold water into the engine causes it to close more than it should, or in some cases (when I hit 250 twice and 260 once) it fully closed.. this caused engine temp to skyrocket from 212 to 245 or higher before the slow moving thermostat could respond to it's error.

The thermostat opened just in time to save me from a boil off... of course I didn't let up on the car either.. I wanted to push it off the edge at this point.

My wife was uncomfortable with me performing WOT (wide open throttle) tests on the car (her neck) so I'm saving those for my homeward commute today.

I added between 1/2 and 1 gallon of 50/50 mix this morning before my trip to work (20miles) to completely top off the coolant tank.

Mike and I purchased a compression tester.. but didn't get a chance to use it. Sears sells a coolant system pressurizer... I might try that. Napa sells a combustion gases test kit (check your coolant) so i might try that.

Also I just realized that the orientation of the thermostat in its housing is very important to allow proper mixing of water from the three pipes that come together. I'm not sure how mine is oriented, because I didn't note that when I installed a new one (GM part, 180F opening as tested on stovetop in pan of water). But note that the backshell of the thermostat should be vertically oriented so that the spring and piston assembly is held only on top and bottom. I hope that's clear enough.. I can explain with a picture at some point.

My leaning is about 30% to sell.. 70% there's still hope. That will swing depending on if I can cook her on my way home today.

I'm curious. You come across as an intelligent and mechanically inclined individual. But some parts of your story just doesn't make sense, in my opinion. You indicated that you have a 1990 Brougham and a 1999 Deville with problems. Where does the 2001 in your avatar figure into all this? And why wasn't that vehicle taken on the trip instead of a car (99 Deville) that had suspected issues? And so what if the 90 Brougham has 225,000 miles on her. A smart and mechanically inclined person that has been fixing caddys for 18 years should have that Brougham in tip top condition and know with certainty it's road worthiness. I noticed that it took about 2 months after the initial Low Coolant message before the car went into the shop. Call me crazy but I think for the average Joe that would be cause for concern after the First day, not 2 months later. In my opinion your initial post has some holes in it and has me scratching my chin. I think some clarification is in order.

"Burns" rubber

" I've never considered myself to be all that conservative, but it seems the more liberal some people get the more conservative I become. "

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Yes, $5454 is a very good price for a Jasper remanufactured Northstar, installed. In fact, at about $4800 for the engine and $1500 for the installation, it is amazingly good. The dealer must be giving you their discount with Jasper.

A lot of people here were figuring on getting you back on the road in good shape for a lot less money. What's been happening?

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The dealership Timeserted the engine and charged you for the parts and labor and the engine did not have oil pressure and now they want to soak you for the cost of a reman engine plus labor to install it??? :blink: :blink: :blink: Where is the dealer/mechanic's responsibility???

Three ideas come to mind as the cause of no oil pressure - the sending unit is not plugged in or is defective, the balancer bolt was not torqued properly, or there is debris in the relief valve. Has a mechanical gage been installed on the oil filie adapter to verify the oil pressure or lack of oil pressure? Has the balancer bolt been torqued to the proper spec and angle?

It may be possible that the oil pump relief valve may have some debris in it - holding it open and preventing the oil pump from priming. The crankcase can be overfilled by 8 quarts - that will put the oil level over the oil pump and force it to prime. It will also clear the debris out of the valve. Once the oil pressure is restored, drain out enough oil to put it at the proper level as it will smoke a lot. I would only do this after verifying that the balancer bolt is torqued properly and the sensor is plugged in and is functioning.

Kevin
'93 Fleetwood Brougham
'05 Deville
'04 Deville
2013 Silverado Z71

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Kevin on Aug 30, truant said this "They pushed it in this morning.. hooked up a gauge, sure enough.. no oil pressure". I wish he would have come back and kept us up to date, that procedure you cited to force prime the pump was once cited by the guru...

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