murray-eliminator Posted August 10, 2014 Report Share Posted August 10, 2014 Hi Everyone. Sorry for the long first post, But I'm at a loss on this car!..I bought a 98 Deville with the northstar engine at a tow lot auction. I thought it would be an easy fix, the car came with no key's so i took the vin to the dealer and had new key's made thinking that would be all i need! Not!the key would turn the ignition but the car would not crank over, and the dash cluster wouldn't work. So did my research and came to the conlusion that i needed to fix the cluster before i did anything else. so a stop at a junk yard and i had a cluster, and installed it, the cluster worked. but still the car wont crank.so back to the internet. I found that that the GM Security System may still be causing the issue. so i bought a PRO Module that would bypass the whole security system.Easy install and after going through the codes and finding the right one. the car cranks over. but still wasn't starting. checked the fuel pump, it's working. so next i checked for spark.. none!.I email the people that sold the PRO Module and they said that has nothing to do with the Security System. it only stops the starter and the injectors. So I'm stuck with figuring out what to check next.It's showing no codes when i scan it. Any Ideas what would cause the no spark?. according to the previous owner *I found paperwork in the car*. it ran great until the insterment cluster went out. The car has under 90K miles. and looks super clean. Any help would be greatly appreciated. Thanks. Eddie Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
barczy01 Posted August 10, 2014 Report Share Posted August 10, 2014 I think these clusters require GM reprogramming. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bruce Nunnally Posted August 10, 2014 Report Share Posted August 10, 2014 Good progress so far. To diagnose the spark I would think through the whole flow. Ignition signals PCM, PCM signals coils, coils send spark to the plugs. Test each link in that chain to see what is not happening. Bruce 2023 Cadillac CT4-V Blackwing Follow me on: Twitter Instagram Youtube Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cadillac Jim Posted August 10, 2014 Report Share Posted August 10, 2014 How are you checking the codes? On your car, you can press <Off> and <Pass Warmer> together for a few seconds to put the car's computers in the diagnostic mode and display all the codes on the DIC. If you are using a hand-held code reader, it may just be giving you the emissions-related codes, which may or may not give you any codes related to a no-spark problem. Assuming that you are using the car's OBD readout and there are no codes, there are a few simple things you can do to track down the problem. First, the nose test: Crank the car, turn the key off, and smell the exhaust. If you smell gas, you have an ignition problem. If you don't smell gas, you have a fuel problem. Second, check the relevant fuses: In the underhood fulse/relay block: 10 Amp MIRROR fuse 10 Amp PCM (BAT) fuse 10 Amp IGN 0 (ENG) fuse 10 Amp PCM (IGN) fuse 20 Amp DISTR fuse <== Don't miss this one, it powers the ignition module! 20 Amp FUEL PUMP fuse 10 Amp INJ fuse (cyls. 2,3,5,8) <== Fuel injectors 10 Amp INJ fuse (cyls 1,4,6,7) <== Fuel injectors 10 Amp ECS fuse 10 Amp OXY SEN 1 fuse 10 Amp OXY SEN 2 fuse 10 Amp CRUISE fuse In the trunk compartment fuse/relay block: 10 Amp RLY IGN 1 fuse The 1997 FSM section on "Engine Cranks but Does Not Run" section has, roughly, these steps below. Note that the nose test can tell you a lot of these things. Check the OBD codes. Address any codes seen. In particular, address P0231, P0232, P0322, P0601, P0602, P1376, P1631, P1632 or P1634. Check one or two spark wires to see if the plugs are getting spark. The FSM refers to a tester. The best way I know of is to get an extra spark plug and use that, being sure that the threads of the test plug are well grounded. You can pop the ignition wires or even a coil by not allowing a spark to jump across a reasonable gap. Check the power and grounds on the PCM. Pull a wire off a fuel injector and put a test light on it, between the two terminals in the wiring harness. If the test light flashes when you crank the engine, the injectors are getting their signal. Check the voltage on the PNK wire on each injector. You should be getting at least 10 Volts there while the engine is cranking. If the car doesn't sound completely normal when cranking over, run a compression check. That will reveal a problem with a timing chain or other rare internal engine problem. -- Click Here for CaddyInfo page on "How To" Read Your OBD Codes-- Click Here for my personal page to download my OBD code list as an Excel file, plus other Cadillac data -- See my CaddyInfo car blogs: 2011 CTS-V, 1997 ETC Yes, I was Jims_97_ETC before I changed cars. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
murray-eliminator Posted August 10, 2014 Author Report Share Posted August 10, 2014 OK Thanks! I was checking with a hand held code reader. i did as you said and it brought up a bunch of codes. here is a list it scrolled through. lmk if these are anything i can you. thanks. PCM P1604 HISTORY PCM P1631 HISTORY IPC B 1552 HISTORY IPC B 2710 HISTORY SDMP 1147, H 1148H, 1155 CURRENT 1159 CURRENT 1160 H 1161 H 1163 H SDMU 1096 H, 1064H, 1255H SDMB 1237H NO TSC PZMB 1982H 1983H, 2471H. PZMU 1096H 1255H NO IRC DATA RFAU 1300H MSMB 1982H, 1983H. MSMU 1064H MMMB 2146 CURRENT PCM? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
murray-eliminator Posted August 10, 2014 Author Report Share Posted August 10, 2014 Oh and so you know I am not a mecanic, I know how to work on classic cars. but these newer cars with the computers No Way. I'm just going by what I find on the net hoping to get it running..so bear with me please..lol Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
murray-eliminator Posted August 10, 2014 Author Report Share Posted August 10, 2014 Nose test reveals fuel smell. I took a couple of spark plug wires off and put a screw driver in the wire and held it close to a metal service. no spark at all. is there a way to test if the coils are getting signal?. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
murray-eliminator Posted August 10, 2014 Author Report Share Posted August 10, 2014 I also checked all the fuses in the engine compartment and they are good. I can't find a fuse box in the trunk... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cadillac Jim Posted August 11, 2014 Report Share Posted August 11, 2014 The trunk fuse and relay center is on the back of the back seat on the driver's side. You get to it by pulling the trunk liner down. P1604 Loss of IPC Serial DataP1631 Theft Deterrent Start Enable Signal Not CorrectB1552 Keep Alive Memory (KAM) ErrorB2710 PASSKey Open/Shorted PelletSDMB1147 Driver Side Air Bag System MalfunctionB1148 Passenger Side Air Bag System MalfunctionB1160 Loss of Serial Data - VIN Not ReceivedB1161 Lamp Circuit FailureSDMU1096 Loss of Communications with IPCU1064 Loss of Communications with DIMU1255 Class 2 Communication Malfunction (Serial Data Line Malfunction)B1237H NO TSCPZMB1982 Device Power Circuit HighB1983 Device Power Circuit LowB2471 Interior Lamp FaultU1096 Loss of Communications with IPCU1255 Class 2 Communication Malfunction (Serial Data Line Malfunction)NO IRC DATARFAP1300 Ignitor CircuitMSMB1982 Device Power Circuit HighB1983 Device Power Circuit LowU1064 Loss of Communications with DIMCURRENT CODESMMMB2146 Left Front Mirror Horizontal Position Sensor Circuit LowEitherB1155 SDM Calibration MismatchB1159 Loss of Serial Data-Key Not ReceivedOr,P1155 Heated Oxygen Sensor (HO2S) Lean Mean Bank 2 Sensor 1P1159 Heated Oxygen Sensor (HO2S) Cross Counts Bank 2 Sensor 2 A couple of these might have a typo; the ignitor is an HID headlight component, not a radio component, for example. The two CURRENT cods can either be split between an air bag comms problem and another comms problem between the IPM and the DIM over the key resistor, or it can mean that the oxygen sensors on the rear bank and the front of the CAT have a problem. None of these point to a no-spark problem. So, we are looking for something that doesn't throw codes but will kill the spark. The crank and cam sensors rarely give trouble for the 1998 model year Nortstars, and in any case they should throw codes if they are flaky or bad. The coils, ignition modules, wires, plugs or boots sometimes go bad but usually not all the cylinders at one. That's why I was thinking a fuse might be the culprit. I would look at the grounds for the ignition module. There are two, one through the wiring harness and one through the cam cover, and they both must be good for the car to run properly - or at all. -- Click Here for CaddyInfo page on "How To" Read Your OBD Codes-- Click Here for my personal page to download my OBD code list as an Excel file, plus other Cadillac data -- See my CaddyInfo car blogs: 2011 CTS-V, 1997 ETC Yes, I was Jims_97_ETC before I changed cars. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
murray-eliminator Posted August 11, 2014 Author Report Share Posted August 11, 2014 I will check those out. Thanks. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
murray-eliminator Posted August 12, 2014 Author Report Share Posted August 12, 2014 OK Update. #1 Checked the fuse in the trunk. it's good. repaced it anyway to be sure. still not starting. #2 check the ground to the coil pack. looks great no corrosion or anything. step 3 checked coil pack for voltage. the 2 wire plug on the right side shows 12 volts on the red/pink wire. the 2 plug on the left shows no volts on the red/pink wire. could this be the issue?.. also pulled the coil wire on #6 cylinder and I hear a faint spark. but real weak.. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
murray-eliminator Posted August 13, 2014 Author Report Share Posted August 13, 2014 Update! It seems it's a fuel problem..Not a spark issue as I had thought. after i found light spark, I decided to try spraying some starting fluid in the intake and the car fired up for a couples seconds. so I'm getting spark, and I'm getting the fuel pump to engage, and pressure to the to the fuel bank. but I'm thinking not enough pressure to start it. So next step is get a fuel pressure gage and check the psi.How mush psi should I be getting to the to the fuel bank? I'm thinking maybe the fuel pump is weak? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
99EldoETC Posted August 13, 2014 Report Share Posted August 13, 2014 @ murray-eliminator: That would be great if it is that. Good sleuthing. ~fingers crossed~ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Texas Jim Posted August 13, 2014 Report Share Posted August 13, 2014 Update! It seems it's a fuel problem..Not a spark issue as I had thought. after i found light spark, I decided to try spraying some starting fluid in the intake and the car fired up for a couples seconds. so I'm getting spark, and I'm getting the fuel pump to engage, and pressure to the to the fuel bank. but I'm thinking not enough pressure to start it. So next step is get a fuel pressure gage and check the psi.How mush psi should I be getting to the to the fuel bank? I'm thinking maybe the fuel pump is weak? 45 PSI Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
murray-eliminator Posted August 13, 2014 Author Report Share Posted August 13, 2014 OK Fuel pressure test shows 50psi while cranking over, and 40psi not cranking. seems to be going up to 45psi after sitting 5 mins. The Guy at the auto parts store looked it up and said it shows two different fuel pressures, one without fuel vaper at 80-130 psi while cranking, and 60psi not cranking, and the one with fuel vapor at 70-90psi while cranking, and 35-45 not cranking. So Do I need a fuel pump?... or should i change the fuel filter first? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
murray-eliminator Posted August 13, 2014 Author Report Share Posted August 13, 2014 Changed the fuel filter, Still no change.. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
winterset Posted August 13, 2014 Report Share Posted August 13, 2014 Since you don't know the history of the car... Maybe the injectors are all offline Or the fuel tank is either full of water or stale gas. Check the fuel injector fuses and wiring, and put a few gallons of fresh gas in it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
murray-eliminator Posted August 13, 2014 Author Report Share Posted August 13, 2014 The Fuses are all good. I added 5 gallons of gas and some sea foam. the gas I'm getting out when i did the pressure test was good clean gas. Would it run at all with low fuel pressure?. and how would i test the injectors? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
winterset Posted August 14, 2014 Report Share Posted August 14, 2014 Someone else might know, but your test light in an injector plug might work without damaging the ecm. You can start by checking for current to the fuse panel where he injectors get power from. A cylinder needs fuel, spark and air. Seems your fuel supply stops at the injector. I don't think a fuel pressure regulator will prevent fuel from getting to the injector. Also you might have someone turn the key as you hold the injector to feel or hear for it clicking -You can use a hose as a kind of stethoscope to help hear. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cadillac Jim Posted August 14, 2014 Report Share Posted August 14, 2014 Your fuel pressure is fine. Nobody reads 130 psi fuel pressure on a DFI port injection system. -- Click Here for CaddyInfo page on "How To" Read Your OBD Codes-- Click Here for my personal page to download my OBD code list as an Excel file, plus other Cadillac data -- See my CaddyInfo car blogs: 2011 CTS-V, 1997 ETC Yes, I was Jims_97_ETC before I changed cars. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
murray-eliminator Posted August 14, 2014 Author Report Share Posted August 14, 2014 I tested the injector plugs with my test light. they are getting voltage when the key is on. and you can feel the fuel flowing through the fuel regulator.. any more suggestions? cam sensor? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Texas Jim Posted August 14, 2014 Report Share Posted August 14, 2014 I tested the injector plugs with my test light. they are getting voltage when the key is on. and you can feel the fuel flowing through the fuel regulator.. any more suggestions? cam sensor? If it runs when you spray starting fluid in it... it's getting spark. The only thing left is it's not getting fuel. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
murray-eliminator Posted August 14, 2014 Author Report Share Posted August 14, 2014 update tested the injector plug using the noid light, its not getting signal. so would the cam sensor cause that?. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
murray-eliminator Posted August 14, 2014 Author Report Share Posted August 14, 2014 Does the EMC control the injector signal? i'm thinking about getting one from the junk yard and see if that fixes the issue. that's the only thing i can think do try next.. any input would be appreciated Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cadillac Jim Posted August 14, 2014 Report Share Posted August 14, 2014 If it's getting spark, the cam and crank sensors are working. -- Click Here for CaddyInfo page on "How To" Read Your OBD Codes-- Click Here for my personal page to download my OBD code list as an Excel file, plus other Cadillac data -- See my CaddyInfo car blogs: 2011 CTS-V, 1997 ETC Yes, I was Jims_97_ETC before I changed cars. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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