Should I Get the Valves Ground?

[coolnesss]

My 2002 ETC is getting new head studs installed. The car has 66k miles, and, other than the head problem, she runs wonderful, has good power, is quiet, starts right up, and all that.

The heads are flat and don't need to be resurfaced.

The shop is giving me the option of sending the heads out for a valve job at $175.00 a head.

I don't see much value in this given the low mileage and the way it runs.

Am I being penny-wise and pound-foolish?

And, Mike, I was looking for the thread where you described when you fixed your heads, and can't find it. I know to change the green hoses and the water pump, but I want to consult that wonderful thread again.

[KHE]

Do not touch the valves, guides or valve stem seals. The seals are viton and will last multiple engine lifetimes. The valves do not require grinding - certainly not at 66,000 miles.

If your engine has the old style lip seal for the rear main seal, if it is leaking, it can be replaced with the newer design cartridge seal which will last several engine lifetimes. It is literally a million mile seal.

Are you having the crankcase halves re-sealed? If so, be sure to use the GM Engine Sealant - part no. 88861417. There is NO aftermarket substitute for this sealant. It is made by Wacker (sp) specifically for GM and there is no equivalent in the aftermarket. Make sure to follow the procedures in the service bulletin for resealing the crankcase halves, oil manifold plate and oil pan, If you are re-sealing the crankcase, replace the oil manifild plate as well.

[rockfangd]

exactly what KHE said. no need to touch valves. definately find out about the case seal, should be part of the job

[coolnesss]

Are you having the crankcase halves re-sealed?

Um, I didn't ask for that - and don't actually know what it means. The engine has never leaked oil. It was manufactured in March 2002 or so - one of the red collector edition cars they made at the tail end of the Eldorado production. So, I don't know whether it has the old style lip seal or not. But, it hasn't leaked.

What do y'all advise?

[Cadillac Jim]

If it was my car I would renew the case-half seal and oil manifold. The oil pan gasket is there on the way to do that job. My rationale is that 1990;s Northstars would sometimes develop increasingly serious leaks out the case-half seal beginning somewhere after 120,000 miles; I don't know what the typical mileage of the 2002 Northstars is but I'm sure someone here will chip in with some experience. Thus you have perhaps half of that left. With the engine out and looking at you, you can get the full 120,000+ miles, or, if the deterioration of the oil manifold seal at the case half has been solved, you can just forget about that forever. Leave it alone and you may have the engine back out in four or five years.

Another strong suggestion I make because I did it myself is to have your transmission flushed with Dexron VI. The viscosity of that stuff is almost constant with temperature so the adaptive shifting of the 4T80E becomes a perfect shift every time within a few days. Also, clutch life with Dexron VI is 230% of clutch life with Dexron III - that's right, if your transmission has 3/4 of its life left, after the flush it has something like 175% of its original design life left.

You have a truly collectable car with your 2000 Eldorado ETC, particularly with the special edition. I can vouch that the ETC makes a fantastic daily driver. And, if you keep it clean and well-maintained, garage it at night, and stay on the road when driving through the North Dakota Badlands at night, a very trouble-free car. Oh, and a pro-tip: never drive at night on a road trip - you lose too many sights to see.

And, from another thread, I would put on new crank sensors while I was looking at them.

[KHE]

I would ask a Cadillac dealer when they began using the GM sealant that I mentioned in my earlier post on the case half, oul manifold plate and also when the cartridge rear main seal was introduced. That will tell you a lot. I believe the cartridge seal was used in the late 1990s or very early 2000 but I am not certain.

[joeb]

how did they get motor out? drop subframe? if so, than yanking out motor to reseal case is a bit more work still.

[Texas Jim]

Just as a point of reference...

The case half seal on my 2006 started seeping (but never a drip on the garage floor) at just before 100,000 miles.

It was still under warranty, so I had my dealer fix it.

[Cadillac Jim]

When I pulled out my old engine for a reman at 116,500 miles, the pans were very wet and dirty but I didn't have dripping on the garage floor. That's not unexpected because the source of the case-half leak is oil getting through the manifold seals and when the car is parked there is no oil pressure. But one of the reasons that I went for a reman was that I was expecting to deal with the case half in the next year or two, and I didn't have a mechanic at that time that was comfortable with internal work on a Northstar (he wouldn't attempt a Timesert job!). I needed the car every day for a high-speed long-distance commute and a DIY project was a non-starter; I also had no place to put the car or do the work.

My Jasper isn't leaking at just under 45,000 miles but techs at two dealers have squirted oil on it and told me that it was leaking. I use synthetic and they squirted dino oil; they smell different. And, a real oil leak doesn't dry up and go away in a few days.

[airmike]

When I pulled out my old engine for a reman at 116,500 miles, the pans were very wet and dirty but I didn't have dripping on the garage floor. That's not unexpected because the source of the case-half leak is oil getting through the manifold seals and when the car is parked there is no oil pressure. But one of the reasons that I went for a reman was that I was expecting to deal with the case half in the next year or two, and I didn't have a mechanic at that time that was comfortable with internal work on a Northstar (he wouldn't attempt a Timesert job!). I needed the car every day for a high-speed long-distance commute and a DIY project was a non-starter; I also had no place to put the car or do the work.

My Jasper isn't leaking at just under 45,000 miles but techs at two dealers have squirted oil on it and told me that it was leaking. I use synthetic and they squirted dino oil; they smell different. And, a real oil leak doesn't dry up and go away in a few days.

Jim, you need to put those dealer, technicians names out here for the rest of the forum/world to avoid!!!

[Cadillac Jim]

airmike - I have found that squirting oil on the underside of out-of-warranty Northstars and telling the customer that it is leaking oil is essentially universal among dealerships. I have never found a dealer that this didn't happen, every time I took the car in and it was put on a lift, even for just an oil change. In recent years with the Jasper I have had insights, like noticing that the smell is dino oil and not synthetic, and looking under the car when it is getting serviced at a garage (or pushing a dime-store vanity mirror under the car and looking with a flashlight!) shows the oil pan to be dry after a week or two.

Also, when I take the car in, the GM service manage will notice from the VIN and the computer that I haven't had the car serviced or repaired at GM dealerships, and I get an earfull. There is a post on another thread that shows the frustration of some techs at this, too, and some of them apparently feel entitled to make that up by convincing me that they need to get into my Jasper. Nobody is getting into my Jasper, ever, except Jasper, and I will want a written tear-down report if it is untimely.

Most mechanics, dealer and otherwise, look at a well-maintained old car as a probable money pit and the owner as a continuing source of big bucks. My current mechanic did the struts and shocks and at the same time tie-rod ends, then a set of tires, and he is disappointed that I go months with nothing but oil changes. He did hustle a brake job that I do believe was unnecessary or could have waited a year or two, but he got air out of the lines that the previous mechanic didn't with its only previous brake job and I'm back to full pedal now.

And, nearly everybody assumes that I cruise around at 15 mph all the time (!!!).

[airmike]

WOW I guess never going to a dealership for anything I haven't run into this. If I catch my local dealer doing something like that I am documenting it and sending it to BBB. I understand paying a little higher rate at a dealer, but not bull &*T% like that. I may just go test our dealer

[Cadillac Jim]

I think part of it may be my accent. I was raised in South Austin until the third grade, at which point my bucolic Texas accent was ingrained. It's a hick accent even by central Texas standards. Once I called my Cadillac dealer in L.A., which was a Chevrolet-Cadillac dealer, and asked for "Parts." They connected me with Chevrolet parts and I started asking about a Cadillac part; the fellow, who had a Southwestern accent, stopped me and asked if there was any reason why they had connected me to the Chevrolet side. I replied "My accent!" and he howled, then transferred the call.

Other things show up on the computer too that may have caused my original dealer in L.A. and my first East Coast dealer to assume that I was ripe trade-in material. In any case I saw massive pressure to trade the car that peaked when it turned 30,000 miles, when it turned two years old, and when it went out of warranty at 60,000 miles. Also, I have seen Cadillac service managers get *very* intimidating if you so much as get an oil change elsewhere, implying that "I haven't seen this car in awhile..." implying that they were considering voiding the warranty with a wave of the hand - and that was my original L.A. dealer and the car was less than two years old. I pointed out that they had indeed seen it inside the dealer-recommended 7,000 mile service period (I was changing the oil at 3,000 miles back then) and stared down the service manager, and the problem gradually went away (before I read them the riot act and went elsewhere).

My first dealer on the East coast was OK until the tech decided to hustle a hub by backing off the wheel bearing nut and showing me a big wheel camber wobble with the car on a lift. I wasn't fooled but I thought that I was just OK-ing a wheel bearing but the job took a couple of hours and I got a $500+ bill. Things went downhill rapidly a few months later after a time when the service fellow told me that the same tech wanted to talk to me on the phone. The coolant had hit seven years, but instead of recommending a coolant flush he told me that the head bolts were weak on that model and that I *must* trade the car right now. I was following chrfab and Indianapolis racing at that point and knew that the Northstar is one of the strongest engines ever built. At that point, after eight years of never needing a drop of oil (except for when a tech loosened an oil cooler line in L.A. trying to force a trade-in), the car went to burning a quart of oil every 400 miles in three or four months - two oil changes. After catching that same tech skipping an oil change a couple of months later I just went elsewhere. One oil change with real Mobil 1 5W-30 and the oil burning went down to a quart every 2,000 miles.

One principle that can't be overemphasized is that when you have an old car, the dealership may or may not be the best place for routine maintenance. A culture of mostly working on cars in warranty breeds contempt for old cars. Working on nothing but routine maintenance and broken cars of *any* make, several a day, makes nearly all techs cynical about the cars and their mostly un-knowledgeable owner-drivers. When you have a problem that you can't get fixed elsewhere because it really needs a Tech II, or because the GoodWrench warranty is worth the extra cost (A/C compressors, alternators, etc.) or if you just have a good relationship with the dealership, then yes, by all means work with the dealership. But I find it much easier to get a good relationship with a good independent mechanic, and there are lots of them out there.

I have found that Cadillac service people in general are much more put off by people who have their cars serviced and repaired outside the dealer network than other makes, including GM makes. I have found that with most other makes they don't much care as long as the work is good and the parts are OEM or equivalent.

[Texas Jim]

Jim...

I am really glad that my dealer isn't like yours.

If I ever caught someone trying to skin me... like in the examples you posted... someone would have to bring bail money and get me out of jail.

That is inexcusable at any time, anyplace.

I have been using the same dealer off anf on for about 35 years.

SO FAR... I have never caught them trying to pull a fast one on me.

I have used the same service writer since Dec 2005, when I bought the 2006 DTS.

When I took the car in for it's first service... we had a long talk.

I explained to him that I had worked on cars and trucks for 50 years and I could take 'em completely apart and put 'em back together.

I have built racing engines and drove dirt track cars...

I have built and drove drag cars.

If he wanted my business for warranty work and for other things that I had to pay out of pocket... then he would not constantly BS me with crap that didn't really need to be done to my car.

Since the first day, he has always been nice and helpful to me.

Recemtly there was a recall on the heater for the heated windshield washer fluid.

I talked to my Service Writer... then bought an aftermarket heater...

When I took it in to have the recall done, I put a $20 Dollar bill in the box with the aftermarket heater.

When I got my car back, the aftermarket heater was installed and functional, instead of them just removing the factory heater and tapeing the wires up.... which is normal procedure.

[Cadillac Jim]

I love the story about the $20 bill. I would love to have a relationship with a dealer like you have with yours. My observations over the years are that a really consistently good dealer service department is hard to find.

I think I've said too much about dealers at this point and I'll obey my common sense. I will give one last story, though. Some time back, I had my car stall in a parking lot right after we finished up at a restaurant. I ran the codes and the fuel pump relay was bad (P0231 CURRENT). After a minute or two it started up and ran OK, and I ordered four of these relays (the car is full of these SPST relays) for about $3 each and put one in. The old one was not the original. It had cloth electrical tape put on it with a big fold sticking out as a handle to pull it out and push it back in, and the contacts looked like it had quite a bit of wear. It was quite apparently some tech's pet intermittent relay. I have no idea how long it had been there or who put it there. I did have one similar stall and recovery about eight years ago, right after I had the car worked on at a dealer, but I just forgot it. I threw the pet relay in the trash.

[coolnesss]

Yesterday I spoke directly to the mechanic when I was at his shop about grinding the valves.

just before the head bolts went, I was getting a P0171 and 0174 code. And then a few weeks later the car had a hard miss. I've forgotten the codes - I think it was 0300 or something like that.

He thinks that because of that hard miss, the valves could be bad. So he's going to test them by closing all the valves and pouring gasoline in the pocket, and seeing if it leaks out fast.

Otherwise, the engine looks great. There's no other leaks or funny stuff at all.

[Texas Jim]

O300 is a misfire... usually a plug.

Totally unrelated to valves.

[Cadillac Jim]

The P0171 and P0174 are lean mixture codes. You had a vacuum hose pull off.

There is absolutely nothing in your posts that indicate that the valves might be bad. The idea of pouring gas in the combustion chambers and seeing what leaks seems like a good idea but it's not on my list of things I would do. If you want to try that, I would suggest something safer like carburetor cleaner. But, it seems to me that if you pour any fluid in the combustion chambers of a cold, detached head and wait long enough, you will always see some seepage because the head isn't the exact shame shape it is on the car and hot.

You can usually get a really good idea about the condition of the valves once the head is off simply by inspecting them. A significantly leaking valve will have marks in the head deposits at the leak. If it looks clean and you still want to see what's up, use a valve spring compressor and look at the rear of the valve and the valve seat; if you see a silver ring all the way around on both then that valve is OK.

What I'm trying to say is, maybe you should stop trying to sell yourself on doing a valve job. If you really want to do a valve job, check the cost now, including parts.

[KHE]

Yesterday I spoke directly to the mechanic when I was at his shop about grinding the valves.

just before the head bolts went, I was getting a P0171 and 0174 code. And then a few weeks later the car had a hard miss. I've forgotten the codes - I think it was 0300 or something like that.

He thinks that because of that hard miss, the valves could be bad. So he's going to test them by closing all the valves and pouring gasoline in the pocket, and seeing if it leaks out fast.

Otherwise, the engine looks great. There's no other leaks or funny stuff at all.

NO! NO! NO! NO! DO NOT TOUCH THE VALVES OR THE VALVE GUIDE SEALS - PERIOD! At that low mileage, they are fine. This is not a small block Chevy...

Tell the mechanic to forget the "testing". Northstar valves do not need to be touched - even at 200,000 miles.

[airmike]

I figure you already have your answer about doing a valve job, in any case a machine shop should be able to hook vacuum to your heads to check sealing. Any liquid left would be able to evaporate, especially gasoline.

[coolnesss]

I agree that there is probably no reason to do the valves, but the mechanic wants to do this little test to make sure that the car will run properly when he puts it back together. So, there's no real reason not to, Kevin. He isn't charging me for it. He seems to really want to do a good job.

Jim and Airmike, he would only consider doing more work on the valves if the gas ran out quickly.

I expect his test will be negative, and there'll be no valve job at all. I should have the car back by Wednesday!!!

[KHE]

Regardless of the results of the "test" the valves do not need to be toughed at that low of mileage.

[BodybyFisher]

On a 2002, those LEAN codes are usually caused by a bad rubber plenum between the intake and throttle body, check it for a crack, if it is there, replace it and leave the valves alone. The misfire probably was caused by the bad head gasket.

[coolnesss]

Mike, you're right. The gasket was cracked. It needed a coil pack on the front, and she's up and running.

Thanks for all your help everyone!

[Cadillac Jim]