Coolant loss

[Spurlee]

Just to be safe I swapped out the water pump on my 1996 El Dorado at 120,000 miles. I refilled the system, drove it around for a couple of hours and topped it off. All was fine.

Yesterday (a month and 2,000 miles after the fluid change) I get a "Low Coolant" signal. Sure enough, it's really low - took almost a gallon I'd guess. The surge tank was completely dry! I'd smelled a bit of antifreeze the preceeding day, but I figured it was a 'burp' since it's the first hot day here.

No leaks to be seen, even after sitting. Temp is fine even in traffic. No obvious leaks/steam/hisses anywhere. Just an occasional whiff every few days - so I know it's leaking somewhere.

I'm thinking it's either: 1) a pressure leak from a surge tank crack or someting similar that only happens occasionally , 2) a poor job of refilling the system when I replaced the pump and it's been low all along or, 3) the head gasket .

Any other thoughts?

[Marika]

Just to be safe I swapped out the water pump on my 1996 El Dorado at 120,000 miles. I refilled the system, drove it around for a couple of hours and topped it off. All was fine.

Yesterday (a month and 2,000 miles after the fluid change) I get a "Low Coolant" signal. Sure enough, it's really low - took almost a gallon I'd guess. The surge tank was completely dry! I'd smelled a bit of antifreeze the preceeding day, but I figured it was a 'burp' since it's the first hot day here.

No leaks to be seen, even after sitting. Temp is fine even in traffic. No obvious leaks/steam/hisses anywhere. Just an occasional whiff every few days - so I know it's leaking somewhere.

I'm thinking it's either: 1) a pressure leak from a surge tank crack or someting similar that only happens occasionally , 2) a poor job of refilling the system when I replaced the pump and it's been low all along or, 3) the head gasket .

Any other thoughts?

Just had mine fixed as well. It was leaking from the thermostat and the hose that went to the heater core was leaking as well. Do you see any antifreeze or staining from dried antifreeze anywhere on the engine, especially the top of the engine? Any foaming in the oil or steam from the exhaust which would smell sweet?

[Ranger]

Spurlee,

I found a leak on my '97 Deville surge tank. It was a hairline crack at the purge line nipple and was imppossible to see without coolant flow. Even then it was just barely detectable. Just a thought.

[epricedright]

Man, these coolant issues are contagious! I hope I'm not the carrier of this germ. You might want to get a pressure leak test done. I haven't yet done a pressure test, but I had problems last week. No leaks found and my coolant level hasn't gone down. Hope to do a test next week.

[KHE]

I would rent a cooling system pressure tester and pressurize the system in order to find the leak.

[Spurlee]

All: Thanks. I've started checking for leaks. I properly topped off the system now that I'm home in WI with my tools and light...

I think it ate some over the past 150 miles but can't really be sure - I tend to over react, so I'll wait and see.

I'm thinking the engine radiator is the back most one - the one you see when you look forward from the engine compartment - right? Forward from it is the A/C condensor and in front of that is the little transmision cooler. Have I got it correct?

I swear I don't see a thing or even evidence of anything leaking. Head gasket?

Ranger, I remember the surge tank thread - I'll check there also.

KHE, I'll pressure test the thing. Wasn't there a thread recently about bubbles in the surge tank meaning something...pressurize the top end and look for a head gasket leak. I'm too old to remember...

Thanks!

[BodybyFisher]

Yes, the radiator is behind the AC condenser. Radiator is closest to the engine and the AC condenser faces forward. I am not sure if you are seeing an engine oil cooler or a tranny fluid cooler out front, but if that is important I can look in my manual I have a 96 also.

Realize that you could be loosing coolant ONLY at high pressure through cracks in the radiator side tanks or seal. When it leaks HOT and under pressure the water immediately vaporizes so you don't see a leak.

Smell the exhaust for coolant and look for unusual steam. Check your oil and look for milky oil or a high level.

Look at the water pump cover. Look at the pipes that wrap around the rear of the engine. Pick up the passenger side carpet and look for dampness from the heater core. Put the defroster on and see if you have unusual fogging on the windshield, from the core leaking. I would pressure test the cooling system. Don't push the panic button yet, it can be SO many things.

[Spurlee]

Realize that you could be loosing coolant ONLY at high pressure through cracks in the radiator side tanks or seal. When it leaks HOT and under pressure the water immediately vaporizes so you don't see a leak.

Smell the exhaust for coolant and look for unusual steam. Check your oil and look for milky oil or a high level.

Look at the water pump cover. Look at the pipes that wrap around the rear of the engine. Pick up the passenger side carpet and look for dampness from the heater core. Put the defroster on and see if you have unusual fogging on the windshield, from the core leaking. I would pressure test the cooling system. Don't push the panic button yet, it can be SO many things.

Much of this was on my list, but thanks for the reminder about the "pressurized leak" and the rear engine pipes.

Thanks!

[Marika]

I'm going crazy with the same problems now.

First I end up with a new water pump and belt tensioner and belt. That didn't do the trick. then, they install a new thermostat and hose that leads to the heater core. All has been well for the past few days and then suddenly, this morning, I get the message "engine hot" "idle engine" "a/c compressor off". I opened the hood and found that the antifreeze was coming out of the top of the surge tank. Yesterday, I smelled antifreeze from under the hood. God only knows where this stuff is going or where it's leaking from.

After the engine overheated, I revved the RPM's a bit and now she's so far, behaving normally again. I don't see any steam in my exhaust AT ALL. I'm clueless about this. I can't get rid of the car because what could I get for it, a few thousand dollars, and what would I be able to replace the car with?

[BodybyFisher]

Marika, make sure your cooling fans are working. Mike

[Marika]

Marika, make sure your cooling fans are working. Mike

it's so odd. It ran fine for days and now suddenly it's doing the same thing as before. Maybe it is the fans. I'll have the mechanic check that today. Thanks!!

[KHE]

I'm going crazy with the same problems now.

First I end up with a new water pump and belt tensioner and belt. That didn't do the trick. then, they install a new thermostat and hose that leads to the heater core. All has been well for the past few days and then suddenly, this morning, I get the message "engine hot" "idle engine" "a/c compressor off". I opened the hood and found that the antifreeze was coming out of the top of the surge tank. Yesterday, I smelled antifreeze from under the hood. God only knows where this stuff is going or where it's leaking from.

After the engine overheated, I revved the RPM's a bit and now she's so far, behaving normally again. I don't see any steam in my exhaust AT ALL. I'm clueless about this. I can't get rid of the car because what could I get for it, a few thousand dollars, and what would I be able to replace the car with?

It sounds like someone is just throwing parts at it... If the cooling fans are working properly, the radiator cap should be testedf - if it is good, the system needs to be pressurized with a cooling system tester and the source of the leak should be apparent. You may have a leak in the radiator tank.

[Caddynut]

start the car up and let it warm up to operating temperature. Have someone rev the car up and take a look under the hood while the cooling system is pressurized and the car is revving. Something is bound to show up. I did that with my '92 and found that the plastic "T" for the heater core was spewing anitfreeze ONLY under higher RPM's....not at idle.

[Marika]

Ok, we used that compression leak test system. It's the blue fluid that's supposed to turn yellow if there's a leak.

After about 5 minutes, it turned a bit of green, but never yellow.

Mechanic tells me I need a whole engine for $5,500. I'm getting really disgusted with this situation.

I also noticed there is a steady stream of fine bubbles rising up in the radiator near where the cap sits. There's no steam coming from the exhaust and there's a strong smell of antifreeze under the hood.

[adallak]

start the car up and let it warm up to operating temperature. Have someone rev the car up and take a look under the hood while the cooling system is pressurized and the car is revving. Something is bound to show up. I did that with my '92 and found that the plastic "T" for the heater core was spewing anitfreeze ONLY under higher RPM's....not at idle.

I had exactly the same situation! You can notice some tiny leaks only at high RPMs. BTW, you do not need a helper, you can lift the throttle lever and increase RPMs yourself.

Marika,

Bubbles in the radiator tank is not a good thing. I would make sure the fans turn on when engine gets some 226F (as Mike suggested). Do it yourself, your mechanic seems to act suspiciously . Believe me your car is not as bad as you think. It just had too many parts replaced, which could wait or even be totally unnecessary. How many miles?

[BodybyFisher]

You just had a water pump go bad. Hopefully your mechanic put the cooling supplement in at that time.

This is not a high mileage car if I recall. I would dose it with six tablets and see what happens but it does not sound good. Do a search under Ed Fenwick, he had a head gasket go on his 4.9 and it was not re-pairable as the shop did not want to timesert if I recall. If you are showing combustion gases in the coolant that is not good.

[Marika]

You just had a water pump go bad. Hopefully your mechanic put the cooling supplement in at that time.

This is not a high mileage car if I recall. I would dose it with six tablets and see what happens but it does not sound good. Do a search under Ed Fenwick, he had a head gasket go on his 4.9 and it was not re-pairable as the shop did not want to timesert if I recall. If you are showing combustion gases in the coolant that is not good.

That's what the shop told me as well. It's too expensive to timesert the engine etc. and there ends up being no guarantees. They told me a rebuilt engine is $5,500 and comes with a 3 year, 75,000 mile warranty. I don't know what the heck to do at this point. I've put so much money into this car I can't get rid of it at this point. Maybe I'll take it over to Richter's tomorrow and see what they say. Get a second opinion.

[adallak]

You just had a water pump go bad. Hopefully your mechanic put the cooling supplement in at that time.

This is not a high mileage car if I recall. I would dose it with six tablets and see what happens but it does not sound good. Do a search under Ed Fenwick, he had a head gasket go on his 4.9 and it was not re-pairable as the shop did not want to timesert if I recall. If you are showing combustion gases in the coolant that is not good.

That's what the shop told me as well. It's too expensive to timesert the engine etc. and there ends up being no guarantees. They told me a rebuilt engine is $5,500 and comes with a 3 year, 75,000 mile warranty. I don't know what the heck to do at this point. I've put so much money into this car I can't get rid of it at this point. Maybe I'll take it over to Richter's tomorrow and see what they say. Get a second opinion.

Do not jump to conclusion. The bubbles might be air as well. If it is indeed head gasket, then an used 4.9 engine for $400 could be a solution. I saw one on ebay recently.

[BodybyFisher]

DO NOT go for a new engine, its not necessary at all. If you recall, Matt needed an engine, and I had one sent to NJ. Consider that. I will scout out a good engine for you, Mike

[Marika]

DO NOT go for a new engine, its not necessary at all. If you recall, Matt needed an engine, and I had one sent to NJ. Consider that. I will scout out a good engine for you, Mike

What I'm going to do is call Richter's later and see if I can take the car to them and let's see if they can figure out what's wrong with it? This car is not overheating every time I drive. It can run perfect for days and then suddenly, it goes crazy once and then it's back to normal again. Let's see what Richter's has to say about it.

[KHE]

You just had a water pump go bad. Hopefully your mechanic put the cooling supplement in at that time.

This is not a high mileage car if I recall. I would dose it with six tablets and see what happens but it does not sound good. Do a search under Ed Fenwick, he had a head gasket go on his 4.9 and it was not re-pairable as the shop did not want to timesert if I recall. If you are showing combustion gases in the coolant that is not good.

That's what the shop told me as well. It's too expensive to timesert the engine etc. and there ends up being no guarantees. They told me a rebuilt engine is $5,500 and comes with a 3 year, 75,000 mile warranty. I don't know what the heck to do at this point. I've put so much money into this car I can't get rid of it at this point. Maybe I'll take it over to Richter's tomorrow and see what they say. Get a second opinion.

Your mechanic really doesn't know what he is doing - that's why he's throwing parts at it and charging you. The fact that he says there are no guarantees with Timeserts makes me suspicious as well. They work provided they are installed properly. His trump card is "It needs a new engine"....That is most likely BS. Head gasket failures with the 4.9 are rare. It is much more likely for the intake manifold gaskets to leak and that is a much less complicated repair.

You need to pressurize the cooling system with a tester and look for the leak. If the glycol smell is as strong as you say it is, it shouldn't be hard to find.

[Jan Olsson]

Marika. Get a second opinion on your car. Never listen to a mechanic saying "We don´t do this or that, we´ll do it this way instead" Howcome they don´t give you a guarantee on the timesert job? It´s not only a recommended procedure, it´s the ONLY procedure you should use when reinstalling the heads even on the 4.9 liter engine. Not giving you guarantees is a sign of not feeling confident in doing this factory stated repair. No way the timeserting should cost you over 5500$.

Personally I would just walk away from that shop.

Changing the thermostat and water pump seems like a rush conclusion too. It would be easy to determine if the thermostat opened when it was supposed to. I can understand trying changing the water pump but I sure hope they didn´t charge you for a new one since it didn´t solve the problem.

Do you have any visible leaks at all? Coolant on the ground? Warm up the car and check for leaks before it overheats (since any visible coolant could be the result of the overheating.

Done anything with the cooling system recently? Like changing the fluid? Could just be trapped air in the system. If it is like my Eldo it´s not self purging like the STS. Check the fans for operation.

Otherwise I would check hoses and clamps for tightness, and radiator for leaks.

I tried to talk my wife in to take over the Eldorado (so I could keep it in the family) since Im trying to sell it, but she thinks it´s too big to drive so she bought a -90 Jeep Cherokee instead.

That car keeps me continously occupied with all sorts of problems but it looks like I´ve won the battle for now anyway.

The Jeep had a cracked surge tank and a clamp not holding pressure allowing the coolant to seep through when driving. Couldn´t see any leaks at idle. That one needed a new thermostat by the way

The fact that he says there are no guarantees with Timeserts makes me suspicious as well.

Ditto what KHE says

[justgreat]

try having your mechanic do a cylinder leak test. if the head gasket is blown around the water passages in the head, you could see the escaping compressed air in the radiator. this might explain the bubbles in the rad more definitively.

jackg 90seville

100k

[Spurlee]

You just had a water pump go bad. Hopefully your mechanic put the cooling supplement in at that time.

This slipped by me when I replaced the water pump - I passed on it actually - what are these tabs and what do they do? I've never put anything in the cooling system but I recall that these tabs are GM recommmended. Can I put them in now (1,000 miles after the fluid change)? They go in the top radiator hose right?

What the heck do they do?

Thanks!

[Marika]

What's odd is that once the temperature starts to rise and it's heading toward "overheat", I suddenly lose the heat INSIDE the car. If I have the climate control set for 90F, it will suddenly start to blow cold as the DIC starts to report Hot Engine, etc.