Paid to do nothing

[tjtjwdad]

JIMDTS Posted on Jun 30 2005, 05:15 AM

... that foreign workers are transplanted here in the US due to we don't have enough trained people to do the jobs that is pure BS ...

Jim,

You bring up a good point WRT foreign workers. About 3 years ago the semi conductor industry was going through a big bust. I work(ed) along side with folks with H-1B work visa's. A co-worker of mine, well, actually several of them were laid off. Management revealed to one of them at their departure interview (when queried) why foreign nationals weren't being laid off. The reply was something like this (don't remember the exact words): the reason they aren't laid off is because the company has to go to the State Department with a request for these visa's under the pretense (a damned lie if you ask me) there isn't enough "qualified" workers in the US.

I'm not knocking foreign workers, but corporations shouldn't discriminate either!

One could draw a conclusion that the reason these workers got the ax was because of work performance. NAY ... NAY I say. This was like the 4th round of layoffs over a 10 month period when this occurred. The problem children were already gone by this time.

I'm out there defending GM & Ford as well, but it's hard to get anyone to listen.

Jim

[CadiKing]

...The Hyundai’s are gobbling up the market where I live. Everywhere I look I see at least two Hyundai’s....

Hey kger2,

You are seeing double because, like the Kia's, (pronounced crapa!),

you can buy one get one free! It will be funny when both piece of crapa imports have to go into the shop at the same time....LOL

[Oldgamer]

That was really interesting to read all of that!

I will try to get it short, what I feel.

1. We should decide first what we want to have over here: capitalism or communism. (talking about unions)

I choose capitalism, I have had enough with other.

2. We should decide what we want: good life for us and for our children or, possible, better life for us and pretty bad for our kids.

I choose better life for our kids.

3. We should decide what we want: to spent billions helping some poor (and not such poor) countries somewhere, trying to create and support that nice image (and they still will hate us), or try to decrease that huge trade deficit.

They [other countries] will always hate us. The jealousy. They will love us when we will be poor.

4. America loses it's own values. Ask children who they want to be. They want to be attorneys, they want to be doctors, they want to be "in business/finance management" (in a best case). It's not prestigious now to be a scientist, a teacher or a programmer.

When I turn on a TV, all I can see that some not really talented boys with tattoos try to play music making that look as much criminal as possible. And some girls looking like whores and thinking they are gift for that world. Which kids watch a discovery or history channel now?

Union member.

Programmer.

[mike5514]

OLD, you are getting your wish for capitalism the days of the union are numbered Unions have been in the decline since the 80s they are long passed their glory days they can no longer take part in workers rights they have been effectivly taken out of the economic picture. The unions have been broken for quite some time now and i believe you are seeing the results. Capitalist have broken union shops by closing them and opening plants in other countries consumers are buying foreign goods at a alarming rate. I use to tell the guys at work if you keep buying foreign goods the people laid off will not be able to fly on your airplanes. It seems it is comming true (I use airplanes as a example). A youg guy at work yrs. ago told me "its the american way to kick a guy when he is down" I was shocked then but now Im not . Your union haters can keep kicking the unions they cant fight back. Blame everyone but yourself.Mike

[Oldgamer]

...Capitalist have broken union shops by closing them and opening plants in other countries consumers are buying foreign goods at a alarming rate...

Capitalist hase no other choice BECAUSE of the union. We have market now, so he just can't remain competitive under that union pressure.

RANGER said it right: union killed that gold goose.

And what for I should blame myself, it's kinda unclear to me?

[Ranger]

You know, I was talking about this to my dad last night. He asked me a very good question. He asked, "why is there a $1500 burden on a car TODAY that pays for a retired worker from YESTERDAY?" The answer, of course, is that pension system was run much like social security. The benefits you receive aren't monies paid by YOU. They're paid by a youngster who just started. And, much like social security, the problem with the GM pension system (and other large corporations), is it's not a new problem. They've known social security was broke for decades...but nobody was willing to give up the money (and power).

Not so Jason. The ERISA act of 1974 requires companies like UAL and GM to fully fund (100%) of their pension obligations every year so that todays dollars go into an account and earn money to pay tomorrows retirees, but like most laws there are loopholes. ERISA's is that if they don't fund it as required, they simply have to notify the employees. That's the letter you get every year that only a New York Lawyer can understand and takes an accountant to figure out. Like Mike5514 said or eluded to, UAL's pension fund was over funded more than once. The company cleaned out all excess funds more than once (most of it ended up in the pockets of robber barron CEO's and lawyers, one way or the other. As little as 3 years ago it was over funded but the people managing it had most of it in the market. I need not remind you of what happened. The same thing happened to the pension fund. If the company had the money safely invested it would be there today. I suspect someday the ERISA act will be amended to tell these companies HOW it must be invested. It is (was) not funded by todays youth for todays retirees. Likewise if the governemt actually put the money that comes out of your paycheck into a social security account, and left it there, it would generate enough interest to pay for generations of retirees. Try to imagine those numbers if you can. It's mind boggling. But politicians cannot stand to see money lying around so they "borrow" it and dole it out to other countries or squander it. Any social security short fall is self inflicted, but no politician will ever admit it.

[adallak]

BTW....someone asked how eliminating the $1700 burden per car GM "enjoys" could help and/or how adding that same amount to foreign competition cars could possibly help. Well...for one thing it would allow GM to offer the exact same vehicles for $1700 less...or...put $1700 more content in the cars for the same price as today. That would make a HUGE difference.

It is hard to say whether it will change the situation drastically... What if GM just reduces the price of all its vehicles by $1,700 for a month to see the difference? I am afraid raising the price of Toyotas by $1,700 is not giong to change much when it comes to consumer preferences.

[Logan]

I am a GM employee....or is it employe? Insider joke for those who know..

Anyway, just FYI.....many years ago....from a corporations stand point...the bigger companies would pay their employees more than other companies...

The theory was that 'they' had the better employees. Hence, they were worth more $$$..

I am staying out of this....

[Ed Hall]

GM sells about 4.5 million cars and trucks per year.

Do the math and $1,700 x 4,500,000 = $7,650,000,000

That's $7.65 billion in savings.

[tjtjwdad]

bbobynski Posted on Jun 30 2005, 08:08 PM

Gee buddy … you’re hitting on all eight cylinders. It sounds … as Roy D. Mercer would say: “you have a case of the “red @ss” with the teachers and/or the administrators. The betting side of me tells me the root of your complaints (and mine) lie at the feet of the NEA (National Education Association), alias “Teachers Union” a very powerful one at that.

Actually, I thought about being a teacher. I really think I would like it. I wouldn’t last though without being fired because I don’t fit the mold. I'm conservative in nature, I believe in personal responsibility of ones actions and I believe in owning firearms.

On the buyouts of the retirement pensions … as a taxpayer I would not want to do it. But, on the other hand, after hearing what I’ve heard here I feel it would be criminal not too, especially when we (the people … our government) allowed it to happen. Besides, I’d rather help my fellow countryman … one hundred fold, over these other joints (we’ve gave money too all thru the years) who’s people would just as soon as kill ya’, as look at ya’. As previously mentioned, there is just no corporate loyalty anymore … sad … really sad!

I'd like to thank everyone for their inputs on this subject, I've certainly taken something away from it.

Jim

[WarrenJ]

The US schools are some of the worst in the world.  Period.

I'm with you on nearly every point Guru, but you lost me on this one.

Yes, urban schools are mostly disgraces (with some noteable exceptions). However, there are mostly fine schools out in the 'burbs.

It's a crime to see city school children have their lifetime opportunity stolen from them, and it disservices the country greatly in the long run. Those responsible (your choice here) should be given a fair trial and hung in the morning.

Maybe THAT might result in desperately needed school reforms.

I'd like to thank everyone for their inputs on this subject, I've certainly taken something away from it.

--tjtjwdad

Me too!

Regards,

Warren

[Cad1]

That's $7.65 billion in savings.

Hey Ed,

Actually that is $7b in the hands of gov co; you think they'll send some down to the General?

Adallak,

I agree, since the $1700 is already built into the GM cars the imports would raise by $1700; I can't imagine that would change the brand loyalty to foreign producers. Remember when the import stuff was considered junk, not that long ago.

TJTJWDAD,

Thanks for posting that snippet from Guru, I think I understand a little more of where he is coming from with that input even though he says I got my head where the sun don't shine. Where did that post come from or did I read over it?

Strangely enough I think the bulk of us are on the same page. We are all very passionate about saving a piece of Americana.

How did Chrysler get bought (merged) by Daimler, did Daimler pick up the unions or were they less of an influence with Chrysler? I was wondering if a foreign company would consider buying (saving) some GM divisions with the union existence. That must be a factor as to why we see foreign plants in the south?

Jason,

I'll bump that 401 with ya, crucial.

[mike5514]

I cant see how a 401 can be thought of as safe It wasnt too long ago that ENRON/WORLDCOM etc. went under and a lot of employees suffered. Maybe the folks who support 401 think that the gov (us) will bail out the planes that fail ,there fore the 401 people will get greater rewards and still have the gov. backing. they will be way ahead of the poor jerk who relys on social secuity along. Social Security has been around since 1937 and its projected to be around till 2047. That means it will not miss a payment in more than 110 years even with people robbing it blind. Quite a record! By the way I do like GM and there Union the Teachers and there Unions. Mike

[Cad1]

Hey Mike,

You wrote "Maybe the folks who support 401 think that the gov (us) will bail out the planes that fail..."

Nope, just the opposite - I'm sick of bailing out the darn airlines and assorted companies. Be responsible for yourself, oh wait what was I thinking, no one wants to accept personal liability or embrace what freedom really means. You don't appear to be very knowledgeable about saving and investing. And I don't support your socialistic ideals for a second. Social Security was never intended as an on-going band-aid, look it up. Anyone with a diploma should have enough sense to negotiate their own career.

Have a nice 4th.

Cad1

[JasonA]

Like Mike5514 said or eluded to, UAL's pension fund was over funded more than once. The company cleaned out all excess funds more than once (most of it ended up in the pockets of robber barron CEO's and lawyers, one way or the other.

Duh. I rest my case. Whatever you want to call it (mismanagement, loopholes, whatever) -- if the corporation left the money in the pension fund TO PAY PENSIONS, we wouldn't have this problem.

I'm not a teacher, either (if I'm to whom you are referring Guru). My formal schooling is an education degree, but I work as a private contractor at one of the largest Army installations in the world, as an IT contractor. I do software training...and that's about the only education I do...about 5% of my job. The other 95% is doing spatial data production. My company doesn't have a pension fund. It has a 401(k) fund. 401(k)s are managed by 3rd parties, so the company cannot steal or draw from it. 401(k)s are safe, and immune from a CEO coming in and "cleaning the excess out". That's why most companies have 401(k)s today. Has GM moved to a 401(k) system? That question is still unanswered.

I agree that it's easy to Monday morning quarterback, and in hindsight it IS easy to see that if appropriate measures were taken by GM execs in the past, we wouldn't be in this problem. That's my whole point. GM isn't the victim of Toyota or Honda. It's not the victim of having a comprehensive retirement package. It's the victim of its own "robber baron CEOs and lawyers" as Scotty so eloquently described his own company's leaders. I've recently turned very "buy American" in my views, but let's keep our eye on the ball -- GM's pension accounts are not the Asian's faults. Sure -- since GM has faced new competition, its CEOs can't be fat dumb and happy anymore, but hey...this is free enterprise, capitalism. This is what our troops are fighting for and dying for every day, God bless 'em.

[JasonA]

Nope, just the opposite - I'm sick of bailing out the darn airlines and assorted companies. Be responsible for yourself, oh wait what was I thinking, no one wants to accept personal liability or embrace what freedom really means...Social Security was never intended as an on-going band-aid, look it up. Anyone with a diploma should have enough sense to negotiate their own career.

To steal a line from one of the greats, Jackie Gleason, from Smokey and the Bandit:

"That's a big 10-4!"

[tjtjwdad]

Cad1 Posted on Jul 1 2005, 04:40 AM

Where did that post come from or did I read over it?

I'm not sure which quote you're referring too. He made some good points.

mike5514 Posted on Jul 1 2005, 06:22 AM

I cant see how a 401 can be thought of as safe It wasn’t too long ago that ENRON/WORLDCOM etc. went under and a lot of employees suffered.

Mike,

As I understand the ENRON episode you refereed too, their (ENRON) 401K required you to put your contributions in the company (Stock), and then they shut the employees out from dumping their plans into other alternatives when the ship started sinking.

401K's are just like anything else, some are better than others. In my case, I can elect over a broad base of funds to select that are handles outside the company. If a 401k doesn't suit your needs you always have the option of an IRA ... or, nothing at all.

By the way I do like GM and there Union the Teachers and there Unions. Mike

Somehow, I'm not convinced the NEA has my children's education interest at heart ... as they claim they do. I'll I need to do is look at the results ... they speak for themselves!

Jim

[JasonA]

I guess we can talk back and forth about what's right and what's not. I think in the end, it comes down to what our own personal opinion is regarding the function of government (and maybe this is straying too far off topic). I think it's great that GM has supported its employees so well. Yes, it's "unfortunate" that we live longer today and have outlived the pension system that was designed decades ago. I think (no, I know) the situation has been apparent long enough at General Motors to leave no excuse for them to not address it until now. The bean counters should have been able to read the writing on the wall. Coulda, woulda, shoulda, that's water under the bridge now.

Where to go from here? It's my opinion that it's not the federal government's job to add an arbitrary tax to "level the field". Why can't we go out and sell our services overseas, like they do here? Oh whoops, it's because our standard of living is among the highest in the world, and they'll work for a tenth of what we'll work for. I don't think it's the government's job to hold a welfare account that everyone pays into. I like to hold my own money. I don't want the government to hold it.

Would I be in favor of some form of a TRADE tax, and that money would go to higher education or community colleges? Well, that's another story. But taxing another brand for reasons of government welfare...I just don't think that's right.

[keith_99_sts]

As far as social security being broke that's not the case the social security fund goes into the general fund which pays to operate many other things other than just social security. If the social security fund was left just for social security it would be very healthy.

Jim

You need to read up on Ponzi schemes. The initial Social Security recipients do well (the recipient today is both retirees and the government), those that come later are guaranteed to get screwed. Even if the government ran the system with more integrity, it's still a doomed Ponzi scheme. Corporate pensions that have underinvestment are equally bad.

It's well established that import tariffs are overall harmful. For argument, lets say than GM can produce a car for $10K. China can make the same car for $8K. Your helpful government makes you pay $10K for a $8K Chinese car, leaving you with $2K less to spend. Is that helpful? Sure isn't helpful to the car buyer. Protection of inefficient industries is a one way ticket to a lower standard of living for all. How many $10K cars will GM sell into Asia and Europe, while a $8K car sits next to it in the showroom? This example has nothing to say about unfair competition, which should be punished.

The only long term solution is to raise the labor prices in China and other low wage nations i.e. continue and accelerate their transformation to capitalism, which is more generally, freedom. We've seen the USSR collapse and we'll see more big changes around the world before too long. China as it currently exists (i.e. miserable human rights abuser) won't outlive me. The immediate downside is that China is consuming much more oil, pushing up prices, but we are our own worst enemy in energy policy (huge SUV's, no new drilling, no new wells, no new refining, no new nuclear power, ...). Our childrens children will be fine, assuming the world keeps moving towards freedom and we have the resolve to protect our own.

I doubt we'll solve all the global economic issues here on the Caddy forum. Did I mention that I like my $1700 overburdened Caddy

[Ranger]

Hey Mike,

You wrote "Maybe the folks who support 401 think that the gov (us) will bail out the planes that fail..."

Nope, just the opposite - I'm sick of bailing out the darn airlines and assorted companies.  Be responsible for yourself, oh wait what was I thinking, no one wants to accept personal liability or embrace what freedom really means.

I hope you never find yourself in this position at the end of your career. How do you figure a person who spent 40 years working for a company and promised a pension at the end only to have it yanked out from under them is not resposible? Where is your retirement money? In a bank? How about the $100,000 FDIC insurance that you enjoy on your accounts? I am sure you waived them as you are "responsible for yourself' and"accept personal liability" and "are sick of bailing out the darn airlines and assorted companies". There but for the grace of God go I, people who live in glass houses, and be careful what you ask for, all apply.

[jschunke]

"GM employee pricing for everyone) clearly demonstrates with inarguable results that taking $1700 off the price of GM cars makes a HUGE difference in customer preference."

It has been suggested that the spike in GM car sales

occurred because people prefer to buy without haggling.

[Bob D]

***

How'd I do that? (double post..)

[Bob D]

"GM employee pricing for everyone) clearly demonstrates with inarguable results that taking $1700 off the price of GM cars makes a HUGE difference in customer preference."

>It has been suggested that the spike in GM car sales

occurred because people prefer to buy without haggling.<

!!! Good point!

Quite possibly a contributor to the % spike..

Hmm..

[tjtjwdad]

Ranger Posted on Jul 1 2005, 01:39 PM

I hope you never find yourself in this position at the end of your career. How do you figure a person who spent 40 years working for a company and promised a pension at the end only to have it yanked out from under them is not resposible?

Never happened to me, so I have no personal experience. However, during the 90's when the military endstrength was being cut, I saw several shipmates who were discharged prior to their 20 years. They went hoe empty handed. Not a thank you ... a kiss my foot or N-O-T-H-I-N-G What an injustice! I believe that would fit in the scenario you've describbed!

Here's hoping this doesn't happen to anyone!

I don't feel I'm up too speed with all the Social Security issues to comment. Oh, I guess I could repeat what ya' hear on the radio, the TV or read in the news paper. Even then, ya' got to take it with a grain of salt.

Jim

[JIMDTS]

This turned into an interesting thread. However we all have unique situations as far as pensions 401ks investments etc. I don't want to start a pissing contest but some of the posters just don't get it IMHO..So I can see how the politicians can BAM BOOZLE some people...We are getting the SHAFT.. So it is best to say Let's just agree to disagree

Jim