Cracked engine block on 2000 Cadillacs

[Bruce Nunnally]

Unfortunately this thread has become unproductive and 2112 resorted to personal attacks and abuse instead of discussion.

Hopefully he will be happy at Sal's place, but I have to believe the same behavior would be unacceptable on any moderated forum.

This is an Cadillac Enthusiast site. While the truth is always welcome here, one must follow our terms of usage in order to participate. I don't mind arguments, but argue respectfully based on the facts of the matter and your experience. Once you resort to personal attacks the conversation strays so far from the facts that it becomes useless for our Readers, and it becomes clear that you are not here to talk about Cadillacs.

We do use the Warning System in some cases, when it is a helpful method to communicate clearly to a member that they are not participating in an appropriate way. In other cases it becomes clear that the reader will not be able to participate within the rules, and the ban bat is the best cure.

[BodybyFisher]

Wow, this fellow has an ax to grind for some reason. I provided enough info to help him understand that there is NO trend of cracked Northstars, he just seemed to want to argue.

[Bruce Nunnally]

If anyone has advice you want to share on how to avoid this type of spiraling discussion please feel free to PM me. I want CaddyInfo to be an open and friendly place to discuss Cadillacs.

[Cadillac Jim]

We have seen just a few FUD people here in the years that I have been active on Caddyinfo; I recall only two or three, or about one every two or three years. Unlike most forums, the gentlemanly atmosphere of Caddyinfo makes these guys stand out, where they would not be noticed on most forums.

The red flag was in the first post:

Joe looked at it the other day and tells me that it has a cracked block. Well, this is the 3rd 2000 Cadillac that has a cracked block. Two blocks with cracks at the rear, and one at the front (if I remember correctly). I know Cadillac changed the composition of the aluminum for the block in 2000 at an attempt to keep head bolts from pulling (it would have made more sense if they used a better quality head gasket).

What stands out, in retrospect, are these features:

• "the 3rd 2000 Cadillac..." is vague and doesn't address where or why these engines were where he found them.
• "I know Cadillac changed the composition of the aluminum for the block in 2000..." is just flat wrong. This alone marks this guy as someone with an ax to grind whose "facts" are his own.
• "(it would have made better sense..." contains the implicit assumption that this guy knows better than GM engine designers.
• Pointing out that Joe could put a screwdriver through the water jacket. This is a parlor trick, as I pointed out later; you can do this with an iron block, too, if you know where the water jacket is, and I said so.
• Complaining that the water jacket is only 1/8 inch thick is what is called, in academic debate logic as taught in the liberal arts and law, appeal to ignorance. As I pointed out in a later post, most new automotive designs since the mid 1950's have been thin-wall castings.
• No reply to posts or points directly addressing his assertions, other than deflections and another logical feint known as appeal to authority when he cited "Joe." Joe may or may not agree with what was said, and he may or may not be edb150, but Ranger might find a different viewpoint than that presented by 2112 if he calls Joe and asks what's up with all this.

So, what to do? Watch for definitive red flags such as "I know Cadillac..." and multiple indefensible damning indictments in the first post like we saw here. When someone comes in swinging like that, pop their karma up to one notch short of auto-ban right there, and change their label from "Observer" to "Probationary Observer." The "instant karma" will serve notice to them, and the label to the rest of us, that we have a likely FUD fountain coming in. And, if the behavior continues or escalates, one pop and they're over the edge.

[BodybyFisher]

There was nothing we could do that would satisfy him. He found some cracked blocks and posed it as a revolutionary find. I tried to calm his nerves by saying that is it NOT a trend, and that the odds in this instance were against him. I dont know Joe but he has a lot of confidence in Joe, and what we were telling him was at odds with what Joe was telling him.

I didnt think I was nasty, and he seemed to really have it in for me for some reason.

[Ranger]

"I know Cadillac changed the composition of the aluminum for the block in 2000..." is just flat wrong. This alone marks this guy as someone with an ax to grind whose "facts" are his own.

I'm not 100% positive that is wrong. I seem to recall hearing something about that once. I'll post it if I find it. Of coarse that does not make it fact either.

[Texas Jim]

I have been following this "DEBATE" from the beginning.

I didn't jump in because I probably wouldn't have been as nice and understand and patient as you guys were.

I was fairly ticked off after his first post.

His "FACTS" were all wrong and he wouldn't listen to ANYONE..

Y'all did a good job of being gentleman...probably better than I would have... which is why I stayed out of it.

:)

[Bruce Nunnally]

The Cadillac press release writeup in 1999 does not mention a new aluminum composition: http://caddyinfo.ipbhost.com/index.php?showtopic=27105

[BodybyFisher]

Adallak pointed out that my language, however abreviated was not proper form for a moderator. He was correct, and I am sorry for that

[Ranger]

Here it is in post #2. Read it all and draw your own conclusions.

http://www.cadillacforums.com/forums/northstar-performance-technical-discussion/133429-root-cause-head-gasket-failure-fix.html

[Cadillac Jim]

Ranger -- I read the post on the other forum at your link, and it is a good presentation from a tech, apparently; the opinions certainly looked like they were from a tech. Although I certainly believe that a tech's options are worthy and interesting, they are based on the life and times of the author of the opinions.

I have lots of opinions on lots of things, and I don't like to share most of them because they are really just "working tools" that are evolving and can change as I learn more about something. If you share opinions you put yourself in the position of "taking a stand" and I'm rarely interested in doing that about much of anything. For example, I don't have an opinion on the alloy used in the Northstar blocks of any year because ( a ) I don't know what the alloys are, exactly, ( b ) I'm not a metallurgist, and haven't boned up on the alloys used in engines other than some old knowledge that about 40% silicon was used to match the thermal expansion coefficient with that of iron, allowing things like aluminum pistons in iron blocks, and iron or steel sleeves in aluminum blocks, and ( c ) I'm not a powertrain engineer or a foundry fabrication engineer.

I will say that the exact choice of alloy must support a long list of requirements. These include matching thermal expansion of mated materials such as the steel sleeves used in Nothstars -- and the heads, which could be a different alloy, pourability and thus yield (percentage of keepers) of the castings, machinability, and others. The design of the casting involves simultaneous consideration of cooling by heat transfer through the casting, coolant flow, strength, support of oil flow through multiple oil galleries, control of windage, control of sump under acceleration/cornering/braking, support of accessories and transmission, and the rigidity to allow all the primary and secondary vibrations in the separate piston/rod assemblies to cancel out as opposing stresses within the block. Even a small change in the alloy will affect all of these things, and when you have a design point, the weight of the block is available as an unconstrained parameter. The coolant leak described in post #1 seems like it was a pourabilty or mold design or pour technique problem. If the opinion that there was a splash that solidified and didn't fuse with the rest of the pour is correct, the aluminum probably wasn't hot enough when poured and the whole batch should have been scrapped.

The 2000 Northstar was really a completely new design. Attributing any one change, such as a slight alloy change in the block, to any one problem seen by a tech in old motors, is probably not a complete description of why that particular difference is observed. I suspect that they started with a clean sheet of paper, other than wanting to keep parts compatibility with things like the rotating assembly and accessories, and they came to a different design point.

[Ranger]

About the only thing I can tell you Jim is that he IS a Cadillac tech. I think he posted here a few times, but not sure. Other than that I make no claims about it's validity. Just passing along what I've read since the topic of alloy came up so everyone can read it and draw their own conclusions.

[Ranger]

Joe just got his 4th cracked block in the shop. It was a 2000.

[BodybyFisher]

I checked the thread on cadillacowners, one was caused by FREEZING....

[Bruce Nunnally]

Joe's shop is located in Illinois. Their website is here: http://midwestcadillacrepair.com and offer to do NS repairs with Norm's inserts or with Jake's studs.

I read through the thread at Sal's and I guess we'll just have to wait and see what the repair shops determine over time. My impression is that they are seeing some additional cracking but that it is a secondary effect. Something else goes wrong and the owner continues to run the engine and then the block gets cracked.

When needed pull a new block, re-assemble the engine, repairing the problems in the process, next customer.

[edb150]

There was nothing we could do that would satisfy him. He found some cracked blocks and posed it as a revolutionary find. I tried to calm his nerves by saying that is it NOT a trend, and that the odds in this instance were against him. I dont know Joe but he has a lot of confidence in Joe, and what we were telling him was at odds with what Joe was telling him.

I didnt think I was nasty, and he seemed to really have it in for me for some reason.

I am Joe and the " magnet to the cracked blocks" i think 2112 was looking for a "for sure' answer to why the blocks are cracking. His car was indeed the 3rd in my shop to have a cracked block and he, as well as myself were puzzled by it. I think he described all the motors in great detail but none of them were from a junk yard. They were all motors from cars I personally worked on.Only one of the cars looked unmaintained I tried my best to explain that ther probably is no definate answer as to why, and that this may indeed be a new problem. Time will tell.I had another customer call me regarding my ebay add for HG repair and he too has a cracked 2000 block. He will be sending me photos as well as bringing the engine or car so i will see what it is and post info later.All the blocks are cracked below the end of the thread depth so the last explanation on cylinder pressure makes sense.

[edb150]

I checked the thread on cadillacowners, one was caused by FREEZING....

I am not so sure it was freeze damage. It was the first one I saw and assumed it was because it was supposed to be rare that the block cracked. The car had dexcool in it but i had figured he ran water in at some point cracking it.Now I am not so sure

[Cadillac Jim]

If an owner is not sure whether he ran plain water in his motor for awhile, that bids ill for assurance of good maintenance over long periods of ownership.

What bothers me about the whole thng is that the 2000 model year cars have been out there for almost 11 years. Caddyinfo has been here as a massive presence and a go-to place for solving maintenance issues with Cadillacs of all ages and we first hear about a problem with the 2000 model year from Member 2112. Some of us are Cadillac techs or other people that have thorough knowledge of dealer experience and GM bulletins and such. None of them have singled out the 2000 model year as remarkable in any way. Nobody has ever said that the Northstar blocks of any model year are prone to cracking.

I grew up in the car business and have always been interested in engines of all types. Every cracked block that I have ever had any exposure to was caused by a known event. The most common of these are overheating, freezing, and internal failure, in that order. Note that running with low coolant can cause localized overheating within an engine that does not show on the temperature gauge, and this occurs over long periods with a lot of oblivious owners.

A much rarer cause is external damage, such as an accident that bends a frame where there is a motor mount, or actual impact to the engine, transmission, or accessories bolted to the engine; a used engine may have this kind of damage and it may not be obvious until the engine has been run for some time. Sometimes this kind of damage can occur when someone high-centers really hard on a speed bump. It's occurred to me that a frontal impact that shoves the wishbones really hard could do this near the front motor mount, if any of the 2000 model years have wishbones.

The photographs that Joe shows are not really obvious to me in the sense that I have trouble visualizing a complete engine with motor mounts and wishbones and visualizing the crack position. It occurred to me that they might be near a motor mount but I couldn't tell. Joe, you have the motors, you tell me if any of this makes any sense at all. But, if so, the model year would make no difference.

When 2112 started talking about poking screwdrivers through blocks and showing outrage at 3 mm thickness of water jackets and such, well, see my posts for a polite response.

[Bruce Nunnally]

It is interesting that some blocks are showing up with cracks. It is hard to draw a conclusion from the sample size so far.

Keep us posted on what else you see Joe (edb150); more info is welcome.

When you do see a car with a cracked block what shape were the other internal parts in?

To repair was it just a matter of getting a new block and rebuilding with that as the only part replaced?

[BodybyFisher]

There was nothing we could do that would satisfy him. He found some cracked blocks and posed it as a revolutionary find. I tried to calm his nerves by saying that is it NOT a trend, and that the odds in this instance were against him. I dont know Joe but he has a lot of confidence in Joe, and what we were telling him was at odds with what Joe was telling him.

I didnt think I was nasty, and he seemed to really have it in for me for some reason.

I am Joe and the " magnet to the cracked blocks" i think 2112 was looking for a "for sure' answer to why the blocks are cracking. His car was indeed the 3rd in my shop to have a cracked block and he, as well as myself were puzzled by it. I think he described all the motors in great detail but none of them were from a junk yard. They were all motors from cars I personally worked on.Only one of the cars looked unmaintained I tried my best to explain that ther probably is no definate answer as to why, and that this may indeed be a new problem. Time will tell.I had another customer call me regarding my ebay add for HG repair and he too has a cracked 2000 block. He will be sending me photos as well as bringing the engine or car so i will see what it is and post info later.All the blocks are cracked below the end of the thread depth so the last explanation on cylinder pressure makes sense.

As I mentioned to 2112, who never seemed to get my point, we have not seen any trend of cracked blocks or any cracked blocks for that matter, this is the first we have heard of this. So you can understand our skepticism as the internet tends to be the focal point of owners with problems. Thanks for the info, we will keep our eyes open

[edb150]

To answer some questions, 2 of the 3 cars were repaired with other complete engines that were then inserted and regasketed to prevent further problems. The internals are all in excellent conditionshould anyone need a crank , rod, or head let me know. Jim makes a good point but unfortunately none of the cars have had collision or frame damage. i too have been in the auto biz a long time and have much experience in collision damage etc. I have also seen cars with broken blocks at motor mounts due to collision damage. the first car was driven and most likely overheated sevaral times . The 2nd car supposedly was running perfect and then just overheated.It was towed to my shop and I ended up buying it from the customer and repairing it. Its currently on ebay (2000 DHS} and is a very nice car and obviously well taken care of. 2112s eldo is also a very nice well maintained car that I also now own. I have not taken it apart yet to inspect head gaskets and such but it too was running fine but just overheated. I towed it from a repair shop and spoke at length with the shop owner and car owner and it was supposedly driven and overheated a couple times. Unfortunately customers are not always truthful about what happens.

[BodybyFisher]

One of these days, you are going to have to surrender your VIP pass for the short bus. Remember, you are using big boy underwear now... you have almost 17,000 posts. I am guessing you are 100+ years old, sit around by the front window of your home waiting for something to happen. When it does, you hop on your powerchair (with Cadillac crest on the front) and chase down the person who's dog just crapped on your lawn, all the while screaming "Citizen's Arrest!" In honor of the Guru, go stick a fork in yourself; but use a pitchfork

You know, I have thought about this rant against me a few times trying to figure out what I said, to make someone make this statement. He then went on to rip caddyinfo, in some way, I will look it up. Bruce reacted because we are trying to make ourselves more member friendly and generate traffic. I think about this thread, and I say to myself, 2112 was talking AT us, he claimed to not be too experienced but then went on to draw conclusions about the cracking without a lot of history regarding the engines. I dont care what the body looks like, its the engine care/abuse that concerns me.

Let me give you an example of a-hole owners... For the longest time there was an STS around the corner, all of a sudden, it was up on the lawn with a FOR SALE sign on it. I stopped of course. He did not know who I was, what I knew, etc. He said, the tranny is bad, it wont shift out of SECOND gear until you hit 70 or 75, at that point the RPM is so high, that the engine is overheating badly when I drove it back and forth to work for a MONTH.... and NOW.......the engine has a LOUD KNOCK...... I said were you getting any messages or numbers on you dash? Yep, I IGNORED them....

My mouth dropped, he started it, and it sounded like a PILE DRIVER

I politely left and said good luck. Ignorant people

I would imagine that I seem to be 100, old or on edge because I react badly to people to jump up and holla FIRE. We calmed his nerves by saying, there is no trend and we have NOT seen ANY cracked blocks and proved that we have been here for awhile and this is the focal point of problems.... He did not want to hear what we said, as a matter of fact I dont know what the hell he wanted.

I am old, because I base my OPINIONS on FACTS and SUPPORT. I am old, because I dont panic, when there are facts to dispute something. I look at 4 out of 8 NSs cracked in the SAME shop as an anomoly

If I behaved badly in this thread, it was my language and choice of words but the member did not want to hear anything at all. He had blinders on and took out his wrath on me.

Is this the kind of member we want to cater to at all costs? Am I terse and hard on members who are abrasive? Should I back off, let misconceptions continue?

[firefoot0315]

Seemed like he wanted badly to make a discovery that would rock our worlds and shock and outrage us. He seemed desperate for attention. From where I'm sitting, it seems like he got to you. It's no use arguing with those kind of people, you stated your position, the next thing to do is smile and nod and eventually he'd get bored and go pick a fight somewhere else, and when he wanted real answers he'd come back here for them and act like an adult. I wouldn't worry too much about the personal attacks, he saw what he wanted to see.

[Cadillac Jim]

So, that's the post that got Member 2112 banned? I never saw it. If Bruce was at a computer, he reacted pretty quickly, thank goodness.

Permission to speak freely? If not, please delete this post, no harm, no foul, no problem.

I think that Rolando is being quite tactful, but that Member 2112 came here to bash Cadillac as badly as he could, to hurt Cadillac sales and loyalty. He may have sincerely believed that Cadillac wounded him when his old used car failed him through fault, neglect, or whatever, but human nature means that when injured, we have a fight-or-flight instinct, and lack of maturity and an anonymous (read: non-accountable) identity can lead some to vent or attack on forums such as Caddyinfo and others. That's why we have filters, ignore capabilities, karma, and ban. I think Member 2112 is an example of why all forums, email packages, and newsgroup clients have these tools.

BBF can be a bit hard on those who wander too far too quickly from working well with others. Most often that's for the best, and it certainly seems that way in this case. Member 2112 was trying not to get banned to extend the scope of his bashing and gain more credibility for it, but when it was clear that BBF was calling his hand and could ban him, he let it all hang out. C'est la vie. Go, BBF. Kudos.

[BodybyFisher]

Thanks guys,

I try to be a no nonsence type of guy. Having been a commercial real estate appraiser, appraising real estate all over the country from 82 to 07, I make my opinions on facts, figures and statistics. Unsupported opinions are just that unsupported. In statistics you learn that bad samples can produce aberrant skewed results.

As I said, earlier, IF there was a trend of cracked blocks, WE no doubt would have knowledge of it.. THAT is the point that many of us made in this thread, that was being ignored by 2112.

Its interesting to note that 2112's thread did not go too far on the other board, it was ignored, no one jumped up and down or paniced.

You have to wonder why someone would join 2 Cadillac boards to post information about cracked blocks, someone who knew about Al Cline... very odd,

I think 2112s inability to say, OH OK....thanks for that info, I feel better about now, was the problem, he wanted a reason to abandon the car and move on