A timesert failure vs block failure?

[truant]

Hi, I'm back. Timeserted the engine on a 1999 Deville with Northstar. She lasted 4400 miles on the repair (all 20 holes were Tserted) and failed again. I'm the owner of a 300HP air compressor!

Now I have to prove conclusively if the timeserts were the cause of failure (dealer responsible for new engine) or if the block "letting go" of the timesert is the cause of failure (aftermarket warrantee co responsible for new engine).

Any help would be great. A picture of what a timeserted hole looks like would be great.

Thanks

Truant.

[Ranger]

I think it is incorrect installation of the Timesert rather than the Timesert itself causing it. I think the hole looks just like the original except larger of coarse and I believe it would have a recess or "seat" for the flange to sit in. See the pic in this link. http://www.timesert.com/

[mmarinov]

Hi, I'm back. Timeserted the engine on a 1999 Deville with Northstar. She lasted 4400 miles on the repair (all 20 holes were Tserted) and failed again. I'm the owner of a 300HP air compressor!

Now I have to prove conclusively if the timeserts were the cause of failure (dealer responsible for new engine) or if the block "letting go" of the timesert is the cause of failure (aftermarket warrantee co responsible for new engine).

Any help would be great. A picture of what a timeserted hole looks like would be great.

Thanks

Truant.

Here's a link I found in the archives -- hope this helps at least somewhat.

caddyinfo.ipbhost.com/index.php?showtopic=4796

And why is it that you have to do the investigating on this? You aren't the one that did the repair!! In my humble opinion, it should be the dealer/warranty company fighting this out. The bottom line is that your repair lasted for 4,400 MILES. I posted about this in the 'Blown head gasket' thread OT. Guess I should have read this post first.

I feel passionate about this sort of thing not because I'm some consumer advocate or anything, I've just seen really sloppy/lazy/lackadaisical work by certain mechanics in the field. I personally find it almost disgusting that they are making a (presumably) ordinary lay-person investigate the repair at this level of detail. Please let us know what you find (and who repaired your Caddy!!)

Take care:

Mark

[tommysls]

Hi, I'm back. Timeserted the engine on a 1999 Deville with Northstar. She lasted 4400 miles on the repair (all 20 holes were Tserted) and failed again. I'm the owner of a 300HP air compressor!

Now I have to prove conclusively if the timeserts were the cause of failure (dealer responsible for new engine) or if the block "letting go" of the timesert is the cause of failure (aftermarket warrantee co responsible for new engine).

Any help would be great. A picture of what a timeserted hole looks like would be great.

Thanks

Truant.

Hi, I'm back. Timeserted the engine on a 1999 Deville with Northstar. She lasted 4400 miles on the repair (all 20 holes were Tserted) and failed again. I'm the owner of a 300HP air compressor!

Now I have to prove conclusively if the timeserts were the cause of failure (dealer responsible for new engine) or if the block "letting go" of the timesert is the cause of failure (aftermarket warrantee co responsible for new engine).

Any help would be great. A picture of what a timeserted hole looks like would be great.

Thanks

Truant.

Hi, I'm back. Timeserted the engine on a 1999 Deville with Northstar. She lasted 4400 miles on the repair (all 20 holes were Tserted) and failed again. I'm the owner of a 300HP air compressor!

Now I have to prove conclusively if the timeserts were the cause of failure (dealer responsible for new engine) or if the block "letting go" of the timesert is the cause of failure (aftermarket warrantee co responsible for new engine).

Any help would be great. A picture of what a timeserted hole looks like would be great.

Thanks

Truant.

Did the dealer do the repair and did you actually see the Timesert Kit!

When I was looking for places to have this done a dealership called it timeserting but they were not using Timeserts.

Good Luck

[BodybyFisher]

If the job is done correctly I don't believe that the block will let go of the timesert. Timeserting is the official repair procedure for GM, Ford and Honda.

That the engine only lasted 4500 miles to me means that the repair was not done right.

Read this:

http://www.timesert.com/html/approved-GM2.pdf

[Cadillac Jim]

Part of the price of a dealer repair is the dealer warranty. Depending on what is repaired, all or part of the repair is warranted, parts and labor (not necessarily to the same amount of time) are covered for periods of one year to life of the car. If it has been less than a year, the GM warranty covers it at any GM dealer. If they kicked it back to you, get the dealer invoice for the repair in front of you and call GM Customer Relations and politely ask about this warranty. They will politely ask the dealer about it, given the invoice number and date, and the dealer will politely cover the repair.

There is a second-chance Timesert, the Bigsert, that probably can be used. If the dealer used a Helicoil or other less expensive repair, the Bigsert can almost certainly be used. Don't give up on the existing engine until the smoke settles on the warranty on the original repair.

[Kristinsmom]

Timeserted the engine on a 1999 Deville with Northstar.

Are you certain, despite what you were told by the dealer, Timeserts were used and not helicoils? "Liar, liar, pants on fire" is not an unknown phrase when discussing dealer shenanigans.

[Poobah]

I agree with the all the posts above that say the second repair should be covered by the waranty for the first repair.

I would also contact Timesert and let them know about your problem. They will likely have some technical people that can intervene in cases like this where the performance of their product is questioned.

[BodybyFisher]

The only other thing that I can think is that the material in the area of the pulled bolt is weakened from casting voids or corrosion so that the new threads while done correctly pulled out because of surrounding material weakness. In that case a metallurgical analysis would need to be done. Or Spock can use his tri-corder. That is just a thought, and something that could be looked at I suppose. I guess the question is can the aluminum become soft from corrosion or is it possible for a void to be in that location.

Did multiple bolts pull and why would be my question. I would want to know, are the timeserts still intact and which pulled, are they contiguous pulls? Multiple bolts pulling to me would mean that the timesert installation was not performed correctly. Could the head be physically warped or one of the cylinder sleeves be low. Deck heights should be checked. Is it leaking internally or externally. Were all 20 timeserts done or only those needed?

Analyzing why this happened is not a simple process. But I think that its important for both the dealer and the warranty company to know exactly why this happened. It could be bad timesert installation or something with the engine, and determining that could be time consuming and expensive. A really good machine shop that does racing or high performance engines could handle that, I have just the place near me and I trust him. I don't know what the process is for aluminum but in a cast iron engine parts get magnafluxed. The engine needs to be analyzed.

I once heard that when the Northstar first came out, all engines that needed to be replaced where shipped back to the factory for analysis. That is such a smart thing to do. I can only imagine that is how the timesert got developed.

[truant]

IT GETS EVEN BETTER!!!! AHGHG!!!

Dealership wants to say (NOW) that the timeserts were NEVER under warantee, that I took that risk of them failing upon myself!!! What the????

I get the feeling that GM customer service isn't going to help much either. After all, when's the last time I bought a new caddy?

P.s. I've owned:

'69, '78, '82, '86, 3 '87's, 1 '89 and 2 '90's (Deville/Broughams). My brother has a 94 deville and I'm working on this 99.

[chazglenn3]

Does the repair receipt say that there was no warranty? I believe unless it specifically says so, the warranty applies. When I had the dealer install the remanufactured engine that I supplied, the work order clearly said there was no warranty.

[BodybyFisher]

Does the repair receipt say that there was no warranty? I believe unless it specifically says so, the warranty applies. When I had the dealer install the remanufactured engine that I supplied, the work order clearly said there was no warranty.

I agree with Charles, no disclaimer by them then they can't back away from this repair.

This information is in Document ID# 641062 put out by GM, note that Kent-Moore J 42385-500 is a time-sert thread repair kit. This document is for a 1996 Deville but I am sure that this applies to 2001 also. Timeserting has been the prescribed method of repairing the Northstar for a long time.

Info - New Thread Repair Kit for Damaged Engine Block Bolt Holes #99-06-01-015 - (Oct 4, 1999)

New Thread Repair Kit Available For Damaged Engine Block Bolt Holes

1993 Cadillac Allante, Sixty Special (FWD)

1993-96 Cadillac Fleetwood

1993-99 Cadillac DeVille, Eldorado, Seville

1994-99 Cadillac Concours

1995-1999 Oldsmobile Aurora

1999 Marine

with 4.0 L or 4.6 L Engine (VINs C, Y, 9 -- RPOs L47, LD8, L37)

Information

A thread repair kit (Kent-Moore J 42385-500) is available to repair damaged engine block bolt holes for the cylinder head bolts and the crankshaft main bearing bolts. Installation instructions are included with each kit.

Here is a link to the Kent Moore thread repair kit on EBAY..... (this link will be no good at some point)

http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/Kent-Moore-...sspagenameZWDVW

[MAC]

It certainly sounds like the repair was not done correctly or time-serts were not used.

You should immediately begin to build a case against the dealership. I would first begin by sending the dealership a certified letter advising it of the situation and that you expect it to guarantee defective time-serts (if they even installed time-serts) and/or the work their mechanics performed. Once I obtained information regarding the name of the manufacturer and part number of the time-serts, I would contact the manufacturer and see if they guarantee the time-serts. I would also contact GM.

Legally, the dealership may be obligated to make repairs if it failed to advise you that the time-sert repair would not be guaranteed. Your state will likely have consumer protection laws that are applicable to your situation. Also, I suspect the Federal Trade Commission may have regulations applicable to your situation.

[KHE]

I once heard that when the Northstar first came out, all engines that needed to be replaced where shipped back to the factory for analysis. That is such a smart thing to do. I can only imagine that is how the timesert got developed.

Mike,

The Timesert was developed at the same time the engine was in development. The factory needed a way to repair head bolt holes while the engines were on the dynos being validated.

Truant,

The fact that the repair only lasted 4400 miles clearly indicates something was screwed up during the installation.... The dealer will make up all kinds of excuses but the fact remains that if the proper repair procedure is followed, the head bolt holes will be stronger than when the engine was new. The blocks are not weak, nor do they deteriorate.

The dealer that Timeserted my '97 STS was too lazy to use the drill fixture and installed the Timeserts 1/4" too deep in the block. The repair lasted five weeks, the dealer would not stand behind the repair so the car was sold (to me at a bargain price ) and I repaired it with the Bigserts and have 7600 miles on the repair.

It's possible that not all the head bolt holes were Timeserted or possibly none were Timeserted - you won't know until it is torn down and inspected.

[BodybyFisher]

Thanks Kevin, someone else mentioned that the timesert kit was designed during initial testing. Its amazing they are trying to get away with not warranting this job..

To think that some shops refuse to timesert the blocks, knowing that they know about these engines. Timeserting should be mandatory, the cost is passed through to the owner what's the bid deal. Train people to do the job right...

Here is the information for 2001:

Document ID# 742394

2001 Cadillac DeVille

Info - Enhanced Aluminum Engine Component Thread Repair Process #00-06-01-016 - (Aug 10, 2000)

Enhanced Aluminum Engine Component Thread Repair Process

1993 Cadillac Allante

1993-2001 Cadillac Eldorado, Seville

1994-1999 Cadillac DeVille Concours

1996-2001 Cadillac DeVille

2000-2001 Cadillac DeVille Touring

1997-2001 Chevrolet Corvette

1998-2001 Chevrolet Camaro

1995-2001 Oldsmobile Aurora (V8)

1999-2001 Oldsmobile Intrigue

2001 Oldsmobile Aurora (V6)

1998-2001 Pontiac Firebird

with 2.2 L, 3.5 L, 4.0 L, 4.6 L or 5.7 L Engine (VINs F, H, C, 9, Y, G, S -- RPOs L61, LX5, L47, L37, LD8, LS1, LS6)

An enhanced thread repair process has been developed for use on General Motors aluminum engine components for the above listed engines. The thread repair kits used for this process represent a significant advancement in aluminum component thread repair, providing consistently repeatable high quality repairs which, when properly performed, will meet or exceed the original specifications. This enhanced thread repair process can, and should, be used to repair aluminum engine components, instead of complete engine replacement, whenever possible. Kent-Moore has distributed these thread repair kits to General Motors dealerships as part of their essential tool packages. The J 43965 Thread Repair Extension Kit has proven to be invaluable in the repair of difficult to access thread repair locations. Listed below are the Engine VINs / RPOs and the applicable Kent-Moore essential tool thread repair kits.

Engine VIN / Engine RPO

Kent-Moore Thread Repair Kit Number

VIN G, S/ RPO LS1, LS6

J 42385-100 Main Cap/Head Bolt Kit

J 42385-200 General Thread Repair Kit

J 42385-300 Fixture and Hardware Kit

VIN 9, Y, C / RPO L37, LD8, L47

J 42385-500 Main Cap/Head Bolt Kit

J 42385-2000 Thread Repair Kit

[Ranger]

IT GETS EVEN BETTER!!!! AHGHG!!!

Dealership wants to say (NOW) that the timeserts were NEVER under warantee, that I took that risk of them failing upon myself!!! What the????

I get the feeling that GM customer service isn't going to help much either. After all, when's the last time I bought a new caddy?

I agree with everyone else. Unless it was explicitly excluded, they are liable and are going to delay and BS you in hopes the you get frustrated and go away mad, rather than eat the cost as they should. GM is not likely to do anything since the dealers are privately owned and this is not a warranty job, but it certainly can't hurt to complain to them. I suspect they keep a score card. You may need to get a lawyer. Then they will know that you are serious and are NOT going to go away.

[OynxSTS]

I would bet my left one that the dealer did not timesert this block.

Be polite, but be firm, start the escalation process: Service Manager, Dealership Manager, Regional GM Service Rep Manager, GM Cadillac HQ Customer Service. Keep all paperwork and receipts... Make sure you keep track of all of the people you talk to... write down their names and follow up your calls with formal written letters and once you get to the HQ step (lets hope that doesn't happen) make sure you fax and CC everyone lower on the food chain.

If round one of escalation proves fruitless, the try it again, but this time have the calls, faxes and letters come from the offices of your solicitor... If that doesn't work, then you are off to small claims court. At small claims make sure you name both the dealer and GM... Your lawyer will help you with this...

It is not hard to win in Small Claims even against a giant like GM. A friend of mine did exactly this when the water based paint started to prematurely peel on his Oldsmobile that he had bought new. He did quite well... new paint, depreciation, court costs... big win

Sorry, for what you are going through... The prices dealers charge are bad enough, but when the don't stand behind their repair this is ridiculous.

[mmarinov]

It is not hard to win in Small Claims even against a giant like GM. A friend of mine did exactly this when the water based paint started to prematurely peel on his Oldsmobile that he had bought new. He did quite well... new paint, depreciation, court costs... big win

Sorry, for what you are going through... The prices dealers charge are bad enough, but when the don't stand behind their repair this is ridiculous.

Very true - I had to sue a local tire shop after going through a very similar escalation process. All the hem/hawing went away after their Registered Agent got notice of the suit. The check came quickly after that. Make sure to do your due diligence and give them a chance to make it right.

They don't have the time or resources to sit there and fight a small (relative to them) amount of money. Good luck.

[Ranger]

Truant might ask GM for help and let them know that a dealer representing them does shoddy work and does not stand behind it, but he can't sue GM. They did not do, authorize or pay for the work. His beef is with the dealer not GM. Dealers are privately owned, not franchises. GM has no control over them other than not selling them cars, but that is counter productive as they are GMs customers.

[OynxSTS]

Truant might ask GM for help and let them know that a dealer representing them does shoddy work and does not stand behind it, but he can't sue GM. They did not do, authorize or pay for the work. His beef is with the dealer not GM. Dealers are privately owned, not franchises. GM has no control over them other than not selling them cars, but that is counter productive as they are GMs customers.

A lawyer would know for sure, but GM makes themselves vicariously liable by recommending and documenting the repair process for the dealer (assuming that they followed it)... As well as supplying the parts (assuming that they used any)

Yes the dealer is independent, but if I tell you how to repair something I made, and I supply/sell you the replacement parts... and I train and certify your staff... and then you dutifully follow my instructions and use my parts and then that repair fails... we both end up on the hook.

You will find that lawyers like to name just about everyone that they can on a suit, even if it is a total stretch... The ol' Gunshot approach.

[Ranger]

Ok, I see where you are coming from, but I think we all agree and would probably bet money that the dealer did not follow GM's proceedure correctly if at all.

[zonie77]

First, keep a record of all correspondence with the dealer. Make a note of all phone calls.

Second, try to take a look at the engine. When you do, take a camera and take plenty of pics, including a few that show it's in the dealership. Take a friend with you to run interference in case they don't want you to take the pics. I wouldn't let them see the camera til you start snapping.

Third (I'm not a lawyer) if they charged you for timeserts they give some warranty on that.

Fourth, everyone previous gave good advice. Get ready to use a lawyer.

Fifth, if the timesert was done properly a failed timesert will have block material glued to it. The metal of the block will have pulled away from the block. Anything else would indicate an improper installation.

[coolnesss]

Third (I'm not a lawyer) if they charged you for timeserts they give some warranty on that.

Fourth, everyone previous gave good advice. Get ready to use a lawyer.

I hope Mike don't get too mad, but the lawyer feels compelled to chime in here.

If the repair wasn't done correctly, then, regardless of "warranty", the dealer is responsible when the failure occurred within 4400 miles. The Timesert is a permanent repair.

You'll need someone knowledgeable about that engine and that kind of repair to testify in small claims court that the failure was that of the dealer. You can't just waltz into court and say "it went bad" and expect the judge to rule in your favor. I would call the Timesert people - they may know someone near you that can be of help. Maybe not, but the chance is worth the call.

As plaintiff, if you bring the case, you have the burden of proof - you have to prove 51/49% that the cause of the failure was improper installation.

The Cadillac dealer's problem will be to bring someone to court who actually knows about engine block manufacturing science, and, if they want to defend on that theory, that person will have to convince the judge that they actually know something about engine block manufacturing and failures, and that they somehow know the difference between an engine block failure and Timesert installation failure.

If the block held the original bolts for the life of the car up to the point of the initial failure, and, presuming it was 100k miles or even 50k or whatever, the dealer's expert will be hard put to convince a judge that somehow the engine block failed within the 4400 miles that the Timersert was installed.

The first and best thing you can do to prepare for small claims court is to find out what day of the week and time the hearings are held, and, before you file your case, go and attend a couple of hearings. Sit in the front row and watch and listen carefully. Courts are open for all - they may ask why you're there (because they don't want to lose track of people whose cases are being presented that day) and just tell them you are planning to file a case and want to see what its all about. You'll see how a winning case is presented, and how a losing case is presented. There's a clear difference. Then, get your case prepared before you file it - and get your witnesses lined up. You'll have to pay a technician his hourly rate to attend and testify. If you prepare, and have a good tech to testify, you should have no problem winning. And as one person above rightly observed, after you serve the lawsuit on the dealer, you may get some results without having to go to court.

[BodybyFisher]

coolness, I agree 100% with this. That is of course unless the receipt has a statement that the timesert is not covered. It is possible that its on the receipt but it was never mentioned. They certainly know that can't back out after the fact when the warranty period is 12 months and when their own service information recommends the time sert repair. This is pretty clear cut. I could see a battle here however between the dealer and the warranty company as to who is responsible...

[The Fred]

I would definately not leave it up to the dealer to determine the cause,

Of the failure.

Take the car to a dealer about 40 miles away,

Tell them you had some private shop do this repair,

Get them to document their diagnosis and hope it favors you

If it does get a second diagnosis the same way.

In court, hey look two certified big *#*# GM professional dealerships have diagnosed this as that and this, and you win

See

By the way I am not sure that the dealerships don't share info

So if they call up your VIN #... they might know what you're doing