Ranger Posted February 20, 2006 Report Share Posted February 20, 2006 As many of you may recall I purchased "Ruby" in Oct. with 13K on her. She had a bad vibration at 70 MPH. Took her to the dealer. They said tires where feathered on the edge, thus poorly maintained and would not cover it. While that was tru, I never did, nor do I now believe that feathering would cause wheel hop. A spin balance did no good. Road force balance took out about 80% of it and I said I could live with the rest. I lied. I am too much of a perfectionist, so I took her to a Goodyear dealer last week. After putting the wheels on his balancer, he said 3 of the 4 tires had wheel hop and called GY to see what they would do for me since she has only 22K on her and I was there complaining about this at 14K. Nothing, we were told as they are out of warranty. Not being satisfied and trying to keep me as a customer he called his district rep and after a few days I was told the rep ok'd $25 credit per tire and the store matched it for $50 with no charge for mouonting or balance, so I said ok and upgradded to GY Assurance Comfort treads. My cost $296. I get her out on the highway and guess what, VIBRATION . Now I fugure it has to be Ruby (wheels, hubs, half shaft) so off to the dealer I go this morning. They spin balance them for $52 (my cost) and low and behold 2 wheels where .5 oz. out of balance, one was 1.50 and the last was 1.75. Back to GY dealer and show him the results. He refunds the price of thier balance, $40 (even though they did not charge me for it). I am now happy to say that Ruby rides as smooth as a Caddy should. P.S. I am not sure that my wife will appriciate it though. We went out for dinner Friday night and I swear I saw her eyes roll back a few times Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BodybyFisher Posted February 20, 2006 Report Share Posted February 20, 2006 Its amazing that the balance could be off at GY after all they went through. Why did your wife's eyes roll back you mean like this > Were you asking her how does it ride and she did that? That is what my wife would do, I would say, doesn't it feel good, and she would roll her eyes.. I am convinced that most women can not appreciate what we hold so dear.. A car is a tool for them, they don't really get it... Believe it or not my wife's cousin can and does appreciate it, she had a 95 Deville, I let her drive my car and she is in heaven.. Cadillac Lover will be on the top of my qualifications next time Pre-1995 - DTC codes OBD1 >> 1996 and newer - DTC codes OBD2 >> https://www.obd-codes.com/trouble_codes/gm/obd_codes.htm How to check for codes Caddyinfo How To Technical Archive >> http://www.caddyinfo.com/wordpress/cadillac-how-to-faq/ Cadillac History & Specifications Year by Year http://www.motorera.com/cadillac/index.htm Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cdictas Posted February 21, 2006 Report Share Posted February 21, 2006 Ranger, Cudos for your persistence. What a nightmare this must have been. I'm glad to hear it worked out for you. Chuck Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JasonA Posted February 21, 2006 Report Share Posted February 21, 2006 Did the Goodyear dealer have a road force balancer? I'm surprised to hear that their balancer wasn't able to at least position the tire on the wheel to eliminate the vibration from the bad wheels. That's what a road force balance is supposed to do -- match the tire to the wheel. Glad it's all fixed now. Jason(2001 STS, White Diamond) "When you turn your car on...does it return the favor?" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ranger Posted February 21, 2006 Author Report Share Posted February 21, 2006 Why did your wife's eyes roll back I think she had an orgasm from the vibration. Did the Goodyear dealer have a road force balancer? No, they just had a spin balancer. The amazing thing is, that is all the dealer used. They did not RF it. I am amazed that the GY balancer was so far off. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
adallak Posted February 21, 2006 Report Share Posted February 21, 2006 Why did your wife's eyes roll back I think she had an orgasm from the vibration. Did the Goodyear dealer have a road force balancer? No, they just had a spin balancer. The amazing thing is, that is all the dealer used. They did not RF it. I am amazed that the GY balancer was so far off. I remember an old post "Vibrations drive my wife crazy". The saddest thing in life is wasted talent Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JohnnyG Posted February 21, 2006 Report Share Posted February 21, 2006 I wish I could congratulate you as others have, and I can to the extent that your persistence paid off with GY. Unfortunately, you are not done yet, or have not said the magic word yet (roadforce). Now remember that this is my "thing" for lack of a better term, so bear with me. Yes, the tires feel great right now, and in fact they might be perfect, in which case I will eat all these words and apologize to all. I am the total pessimist though, and conditioned yourself to be satisfied with this improvement, so here's what I'd like you to try. Take Ruby out on the road and get the tires warmed up a bit, like 20-30 minutes of easy driving. Then put the SECOND sunvisor down just a little, the little plastic one, after swinging the main one off to the side. Run her up to about 72 then slowly let it creep back down to 68. If you don't feel any vibration, or see that sunvisor jumping up and down, I'll pronounce Ruby as fixed! A roadforce problem is most pronounced at 68 - 72 mph, other than that the problem is balance. Never underestimate the amount of a persons greed. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ranger Posted February 21, 2006 Author Report Share Posted February 21, 2006 I'll try that on the way home tonight Johnny, but THIS time, I can honestly say that if there is any vibration left I can definately live with it. It was very smooth on the way in to work this afternoon. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Logan Posted February 21, 2006 Report Share Posted February 21, 2006 Road Force Balance helps....some... I believe the root cause of the 1998-2004 Seville....and 2000-2005 Deville vibrations are due to rubbery 'jello' engine cradle and upper strut mounts. Common problem.. See this post...not any good info till page 6-7-8..... http://www.cadillacforums.com/forums/suspe...immy-sts-5.html Logan Diagnostic LLC www.airbagcrash.com www.logandieselusa.com www.ledfix.com www.ledfix.com/yukontaillightrepair.html www.ledfix.com/ledreplacements.html www.ledfix.com/j42385toolrental.html Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ranger Posted February 21, 2006 Author Report Share Posted February 21, 2006 I spoke too soon. JohnnyG was right. Back to the dealer in the morning. Just spoke to them and the service advisor said he remembered something about a TSB advising of using Symmetrys to solve the problem. I don't buy that. He is going to reasearch it tonight. They want $150 to RF. I'll go to Discount Tire if it comes to that were I can get it done for $40, but I'm gonna press Caddy on the issue. There is no reason for this with new tires. I have driven many cars and changed many tires in my life and never have I had such a problem. If this continues, there will be an SLS for sale and I'll go back to Deville. I AM PISSED! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JohnnyG Posted February 22, 2006 Report Share Posted February 22, 2006 Now, take it easy. Nothing has been done to your car in a spiteful manner. In fact you have been treated very well by those you deal with. They just need a little education, that's all. We're back to where we started with Ruby, and the next step is either back to the tire dealer or to a tire dealer with a GSP 9700. I have not read Logan's link yet, but I'm thinking that whatever the article blames the vibration on, you won't get Caddy to repair it under warranty. Further, I'm almost certain that any fix involving upper strut mounts will cost much more than a road force balance. Again, this is my thing on this board, and as I have said before there may come a time when you just have to call it quits and live with what you have. Try to get the tires as low as possible on the road force machine, and anything over 15 pounds, you will feel. At that point you might try to get the tire replaced since it is new, but manufacturers specs are higher than that. Therefore they will call it "acceptable". I suppose that for $150.00 there should be something in writing. In other words, what will they do for that $150? If they say that they will get the tires below the machine's built in limits, that will NOT be good enough. (26 lbs.) Never underestimate the amount of a persons greed. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rcirobin Posted February 22, 2006 Report Share Posted February 22, 2006 Road Force Balance helps....some... I believe the root cause of the 1998-2004 Seville....and 2000-2005 Deville vibrations are due to rubbery 'jello' engine cradle and upper strut mounts. Common problem.. See this post...not any good info till page 6-7-8..... http://www.cadillacforums.com/forums/suspe...immy-sts-5.html READ LOGANS POST! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ted tcb Posted February 22, 2006 Report Share Posted February 22, 2006 I'd like to hear the results after a road force balance. It would certainly be more economical than flipping your car into a Deville. I read Logan's post with much interest when it first appeared ... he seems to be pursuing a solution that has eluded dealers by focusing on the engine cradle and deterioration of cradle mounts. It just seems hard to believe that these mounts could deteriorate on Ranger's 13k car ... many people complain of vibration with their brand new 98-02 Sevilles. Even assuming that the cradle mounts deteriorate quickly, this doesn't explain cars that vibrate right out of the showroom. It may not be one simple design flaw ... it could be a matrix of various design elements, which would make a cost fix ineffective. Imagine if its a combination of engine cradle mounts, wheel design, wheel balance, tire inflation, undercarriage aerodynamics, brake caliper design, motor mounts, etc? Scary thought. It seems that some have had success with the Hunter road force balance, and others claim it made no difference. I'd give it a try before giving up on your car. When I bought my STS with 100k, it vibrated at 65mph. I refused to hand over the cash until the problem was fixed. New tires and 2 attempts at traditional balancing cured my problem, and the car is a superb highway cruiser. There is definitely something inherent in the design of these cars that make them overly sensitive to any tire irregularities. Tires that vibrate on a STS subsequently work perfectly well on a different car. I agree with those who feel that Cadillac owners shouldn't have to go to extreme lengths to simply enjoy the pleasure of driving their cars on the highway with confidence. 1989 FWD Fleetwood, Silver 1995 STS Crimson Pearl on Black leather 1997 STS Diamond White 1999 STS Crimson Pearl 2001 STS Silver 2003 STS, Crimson Pearl Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bobnsue2 Posted February 22, 2006 Report Share Posted February 22, 2006 Hi, I've had the bouncing problem in the past where multiple balances couldn't fix it. The tire shop balancers mostly use a center hole cone to mount the wheel on the machine.(quick and easy) But the hole sometimes is just not accurate. When I have to return, I insist on them using the lug mount adapter. It takes a bit more time because they need to put it on the wheel first, but it has always worked for me. One shop (Big O) said the adapter was broken as I was shopping for tires. So I went to Les Schwab. They were happy to oblige. Bought the tires at Schwab. A year later Big O manager said the adapter was still broken. Bob B Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ranger Posted February 22, 2006 Author Report Share Posted February 22, 2006 Update: Just got back from the dealer. Went for a ride with the mechanic and he immediately felt the vibration. Put the wheels on the balancer and the weights were off by as much as 1.50 oz. It turns out that he used weights with the wrong hook profile (he showed me the difference). Ruby was throwing the weights. That explaines the good ride the first day and the vibration on the second. It also explaines why GoodYears balance was so far off. He rebalanced them all with the proper weights and applied road force. Road force was well within specs and she now is smooth again. Hoepfully she will stay that way and this is truely the final chapter, time will tell. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JimD Posted February 22, 2006 Report Share Posted February 22, 2006 Been there with the vibration on my '98 and my '04 (same suspension design). The fix was the same for both cars. If you are 100% certain you do not have a defective tire or a bent wheel, try this. Remove wheels and rotors. Use a wire brush to surgically clean the mounting / mating surfaces on the hub, both sides of rotor, and wheel. Pay attention to torque spec's when bolting it back together. In fact, I torque my wheels twice; first to 70 lb ft and then to 100 lb ft using the proper sequence. Good luck with it. These cars can roll down the highway as smooth as clean air at 35,000 feet. Jim Drive your car. Use your cell phone. CHOOSE ONE ! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ranger Posted February 22, 2006 Author Report Share Posted February 22, 2006 Thanks Jim. Just got to work and she rode pretty smooth, but I'll do that this spring when I put front pads on her. Wheels were checked with the 1st RF balance and the tires are new. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JohnnyG Posted February 24, 2006 Report Share Posted February 24, 2006 OK, so you had your tires balanced by a tire shop that didn't know which weights to use, what else is new? I told you they needed a little education, but I didn't know just how much! At any rate, it sounds like you Finally have a set of ROUND tires, and something you can work with. You have about 80% of the problem solved, which is about all that any of us can hope for. If you feel the need to make it better, remember the things that I have posted. I read Bruce's linked post but found very little in the way of a solution. Yes, a lot of speculation, but no cure. It does seem however that many have tried and beeen dissatisfied with a RF balance. All that I can say about that is maybe tire shops need a LOT more training than they are currently getting...including dealerships. Never underestimate the amount of a persons greed. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JimD Posted February 24, 2006 Report Share Posted February 24, 2006 A few more rambling thoughts. The thread on cadillacforums.com continues to be interesting reading. The issue seems to limited to the '98 - '04 Seville and '00 - '05 Deville chassis which does not have "dog bones" tieing the engine down or a strut tower brace. Have to wonder why / how the powertrain folks concluded these pieces were not required. If I had exhausted all the standard fixes with the rotating parts, I would be tempted to fabricate a strut tower brace as a test. Just FYI; my '98 Service Manual has 33 pages of "Vibration Diagnosis and Correction" information dealing with fundamental vibration frequency identification as well as harmonics. Someone somewhere felt that vibration 'might be' enough of a problem to justify including this much information on the subject. Jim Drive your car. Use your cell phone. CHOOSE ONE ! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TDK Posted February 25, 2006 Report Share Posted February 25, 2006 I can't think of a better crew to get great advice from: Ranger, Scotty/BBF, JimD, JohnnyG, TedTech and others... However, regarding vibration - I usually try to get above the "critical speed" (look that one up for some fun). Something like "not hearing" higher frequencies as we age (sorry guys). I usually run out of road and velocity. I can understand as JimD noted ... "clean air at 35,000-feet"...in a Caddy, but the absence can be aggravating. As another poster noted, I suppose the interactive, various inputs might have effects that are difficult to predict in a given vehicle. Logan's note on suspension point wearing / redesign was quite interesting. I guess I 'll just stick to driving on gravel roads at speed to reset my sensitivities if needed. And yea, my verboseness and rambling was due to a "Margrita Mucho Gran'de" Add power to leave problems behind. Most braking is just - poor planning. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ranger Posted March 8, 2006 Author Report Share Posted March 8, 2006 UPDATE: 1000 miles on the GoodYear comfort treads, the weights are holding and she is smooth as glass. I think I'll keep her. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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