Ranger Posted October 19, 2005 Report Share Posted October 19, 2005 Well I sold the White Diamond this morning and drove Ruby for the first time since getting her home from Ohio and having the local dealer fix the trunk leak and rotate the tires. The vibration is as bad or worse at 65. Slightly less at 70. Guess I'll have to take her in and have the tires balanced and see if that will solve the problem. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scotty Posted October 19, 2005 Report Share Posted October 19, 2005 Definately balance them, while its up I would grab each wheel at 3 and 9 and 12 and 6 and see if you have any play.. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JimD Posted October 19, 2005 Report Share Posted October 19, 2005 If the balance does not change anything, there are a couple of additional steps that have cured the vibration problems on my cars. And be sure to ask whoever does the balancing to be alert for signs of a bent wheel. Remove each wheel and surgically clean any rust from the rotor where it contacts the wheel. Likewise remove any rust / corrosion from the inboard surface of the wheel where it contacts the rotor. Also clean any road tar/gum/grease/junk from the inboard side of the wheel. Using the proper lug nut tightening sequence, torque the lug nuts to 70 lbs ft, and then torque them to 100 lbs ft. Good luck with it..... Jim Drive your car. Use your cell phone. CHOOSE ONE ! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cdictas Posted October 19, 2005 Report Share Posted October 19, 2005 Ranger, Have you checked the suspect tire for run out? Chuck Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ranger Posted October 20, 2005 Author Report Share Posted October 20, 2005 The car only has 14K on it now so I don't think rust would be the problem but I will be sure to check it out when the wheels are off. I checked and corrected the lug torque when I got it back and as suspected the dealer did not, so I know that is correct. Have not checked run out. Do you mean around the radius? I'll look into that tomorrow. Should I be able to tell visually? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scotty Posted October 20, 2005 Report Share Posted October 20, 2005 A few things come to mind for me, 1) tire balance, 2) tire out of balance on the tread edge requiring a road force balance, 3) an out of round tire (oval) which may require replacement (not likely unless its slight as you can get up to 60 before vibration), 4) runout of the hub or wheel assembly determined with a dial indicator http://www.harborfreight.com/cpi/ctaf/Disp...temnumber=93051 or 5) bent wheel which to me is hardest to determine unless you substitute a good wheel, 6) a bad tire with a defective belt. If you can have someone drive the car and you drive in another car and slowly circle the car at 70 (or where the vibration is prevalant) and look at each tire to see if it is bouncing over bumps or bouncing, a bad strut will allow the wheel assembly to be free over short range causing vibration. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cdictas Posted October 20, 2005 Report Share Posted October 20, 2005 Larry, No, what I mean is tire run out. What you have to do is jack the suspect side of the car up. Block the rear tires and place the car in neutral, now you should be able to spin the suspect tire. Now take a piece of white chaulk and gently bring the chaulk close to tread until the chaulk touches the tread. A good tire should show a white chaulk mark all the way around the tire. If the chaulk mark doesn't make it all around (missing spots or large portions of the tire) the tire is bad, it's essentially out of round. I hope this helps, Chuck Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ranger Posted October 20, 2005 Author Report Share Posted October 20, 2005 Thanks cdictas. Having only 14K on them, if that is the case I would expect Goodyear to warranty them. There is no "suspect" tire. I actually suspect all of them. I hope it is a simple balance problem. One thing I should add that was really wierd, maybe I mentioned this. After stopping at a rest area in Ohio or Indiana I gave her some WOT on the merge ramp getting back on the highway. WOW, was the vibration bad. I though it was a misfire for a while. I actually had to put her in neutral and idle the engine at 70 mph to be sure. Then it slowly smoothed went away. Anybody explain that one? BTW, one of the front hub and bearing assemblys was replaced by the Ohio dealer I bought it from. They said it was because of play. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JohnnyG Posted October 20, 2005 Report Share Posted October 20, 2005 I'll say this once more, just in case you didn't hear me the first time. "When the dealer(s) fail to fix your vibration problem, bring it down to southern Ohio and I'll get it fixed for $50.00...unless you need a new tire" Never underestimate the amount of a persons greed. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JohnnyG Posted October 20, 2005 Report Share Posted October 20, 2005 You also need to check that front motor mount. I've heard that failures of the motor mount will cause a similar vibration. In my post, I'm talking tires/wheels. If it's a motor mount, you're on your own. Never underestimate the amount of a persons greed. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ranger Posted October 20, 2005 Author Report Share Posted October 20, 2005 I am pretty sure it is not the motor mount Johnny. I should have stopped by on the way home. I'm leaningtoward a balance problem but we'll see. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JasonA Posted October 20, 2005 Report Share Posted October 20, 2005 I would join with Scotty to recommend a road force balance, if the dealer can't help you. My local Cadillac dealer actually does have a Hunter GSP9700 machine, perhaps yours does as well. We chased a balance problem on the new tires I bought for our Grand Caravan for ever. Sears must have rebalanced them 5 different tires. The tires were in perfect round, but one of them produced excessive force...which I understand can be a variation in the sidewall that may not physically show up as an out-of-round problem, but can produce a wallop at speeds, vibrating the car. After the one bad tire was replaced, it's free and clear. After being on this board for a while, I know the 98+ Sevilles are especially sensitive to tire balance/runout/force, and a road force balance machine will likely pick up on any of those. Jason(2001 STS, White Diamond) "When you turn your car on...does it return the favor?" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ted tcb Posted October 20, 2005 Report Share Posted October 20, 2005 Ranger, my 99 STS had the same symptons as yours, I noticed it on test drives. The car would be smooth until you hit a certain speed, then, look out! The dealer tried rebalancing and new rotors, but no luck ... the vibration just appeared at different speeds. At 60mph, it felt like you had applied the brakes using square rotors. Go up to 70mph, things were smooth. I transferred my almost new tires from my 97 STS, and all was well, so I bought the car. My backup plan was spending the $$ on the Hunter balancer. My local shop has the machine, and they tell me that the machine, if used properly, can even tell them if the tire is mounted on the wrong part of the rim. Its extremely precise if the operator understands the process. Maybe the vibration only occurs on our crimson pearl models I'd be surprised if its a front end issue. I took my tire (Hunter) dealer on a test drive, and he said " tires, bring it in and we'll correct it". 1989 FWD Fleetwood, Silver 1995 STS Crimson Pearl on Black leather 1997 STS Diamond White 1999 STS Crimson Pearl 2001 STS Silver 2003 STS, Crimson Pearl Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JasonA Posted October 20, 2005 Report Share Posted October 20, 2005 My local shop has the machine, and they tell me that the machine, if used properly, can even tell them if the tire is mounted on the wrong part of the rim. Its extremely precise if the operator understands the process. Yes, when my local tire dealer used the machine on all four tires on my Grand Caravan, they actually dismounted two of the tires and rotated them on the rim. It fixed one, but not the other (which was replaced). 'Dem machines are neat things. Jason(2001 STS, White Diamond) "When you turn your car on...does it return the favor?" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JIMDTS Posted October 20, 2005 Report Share Posted October 20, 2005 Your topic title Ruby's Vibrator would make a good title for a Porno flick.I had second thought about clicking on your post. Good Luck hunting down the vibrations but I would not rule out motor mounts. It's probably a tire issue I have had mounts cause vibrations you mention I had to have a mount changed on the 01 Deville at 32k for very slight vibration Those WOT's really stress the mounts. These front wheel drives can have vibration issues could be tires, wheels,rotors, ball joints,cv/axles.mounts 4 wheel alignment Hope it's just a balance also make sure your tire pressure is fairly low all mine ride best at 30 psi cold. Take a quick look at the balance weights on your wheels usually the smallest weight should be on the left front then the right front and works it's way around the car with the larger weights to bring the tires/wheels in balance to right rear left rear just a thought. Heck if the dealer balanced them I would take it back if you are not happy and have them correct the problem On mine I actually had to take a service writer for a ride to show them the vibration i had Mine needed a 4 wheel alignment ,hunter balance and new motor mount all was well. The tires at the time were new michelins Jim Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ranger Posted October 20, 2005 Author Report Share Posted October 20, 2005 Jim, The dealer did not balance them. They simply rotated them. I'm going to get them rebalanced tomorrow and see what happens. As I said, having thought the Ohio dealer had checked them (mistake), I drove home at 25 psi (front) and 23 psi (rear). They are now at 30 and vibration is still present. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
adallak Posted October 20, 2005 Report Share Posted October 20, 2005 Every time I rotate the tires without rebalancing I get vibration. The saddest thing in life is wasted talent Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JasonA Posted October 21, 2005 Report Share Posted October 21, 2005 Take a quick look at the balance weights on your wheels usually the smallest weight should be on the left front then the right front and works it's way around the car with the larger weights to bring the tires/wheels in balance to right rear left rear just a thought. Jim, I had not heard of this before. If a tire's in balance, it's in balance, no? What happens when you rotate tires? Surely you wouldn't have to move the weights around just because you moved the tires to different locations? The tires are balanced off the car, so I'm having trouble following the logic of having the smallest wheel weights on the front. I would think that each tire is individual, and each should require a weight commensurate with the amount of imbalance, independent of its position on the car, no? Ever since I bought this set of Michelin Pilots new (about 3 years and 45,000 miles ago), I've never had to have them rebalanced, despite having rotated them countless times. Jason(2001 STS, White Diamond) "When you turn your car on...does it return the favor?" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scotty Posted October 21, 2005 Report Share Posted October 21, 2005 It is my understanding that as a tire wears its balance goes off a little at a time. In addition you can loose weights. I buy my tires at Costco, and have unlimited rotating and balancing, it makes a huge difference when I have them re-balanced.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JIMDTS Posted October 21, 2005 Report Share Posted October 21, 2005 Hi Jason In theory the tire/wheel with the smallest balance weight was the tire/wheel that was out of balance the least so it took less weight to balance. So it should be the smoothest riding So when they put the wheels and tire back on the car they start with the lf rf rr lr you wold not feel a wheel and tire out of balance as much on the rear of the car as up front.I have had a couple wheel/tires that didn't need any weights to balance them.Iy looks odd 1 or 2 wheels on the car with no weights makes you think you threw a balance weight. I still like the old way of doing a high speed balance on the car it takes out the variations out on the car ie. play in axles , cv joints bearings and such only bad thing is when you rotate(move to another position) the the wheel tire is out of balance. The new hunter road force stuff is good but IMHO I still like the on car high speed balance.. Not many places still use it anymore.. There is one suspension shop that I know who still does them on problem cars. This guy is real good when he gets done with your car it is super smooth I just don't have a reason to do mine that way it is vibration free now but if I need a balance that's where I'm going. Jim Scotty It is my understanding and I believe it's true when you mount a tire it's really not fully seated for 25 to 50 miles or so thats why they go out of balance The tire shop I deal with on my cars does not even balance my tire when they first install them I go back the next day after a few miles and this works great for me. I always get the lifetime balance and rotation as part of the tire purchase plus they offer if you purchase a tire and don't like it for any reason you can bring it back with 100 to 200 miles and get a trade in on another set they just add or subtract what you paid and then you just settle up the diff.This has saved my a-- on a few sets of expensive tires that I didn't like the way they handled or made the car ride like sh--..Sometimes it pays to go to the little guy..and his prices are real close to costco and sometimes even cheaper. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JasonA Posted October 21, 2005 Report Share Posted October 21, 2005 only bad thing is when you rotate(move to another position) the the wheel tire is out of balance. This is what I don't understand. The tire/wheel are balanced to each other off the vehicle. If it's balanced correctly, it should ride smooth regardless of where it's installed on the car. Maybe I've just been lucky -- I've never had to rebalance tires after a rotate. Sometimes there will be some additional noise for a few thousand miles as the wear ridges might have to reverse themselves after a rotate, but I've never had balance problems. Jason(2001 STS, White Diamond) "When you turn your car on...does it return the favor?" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ranger Posted October 22, 2005 Author Report Share Posted October 22, 2005 Well, I had the tires balanced today (spin balance). Seems a bit better but I won't know for sure til I get her out on the toll road in a day or two. The first place I stopped at talked me out of it. He almost had me convinced that I needed new tires. I said I'd have to think about it. I just can't believe that a little feathering on the edges will cause a vibration. Besides I sure would hate to have to replace tires with only 14K on them. I know I'll never get the 85 I got on my Deville but I would like to get another 20-30k anyway. Another place I called said, no, a vibration is a balance problem. Anyway, one tire was an oz. out, another was 3/4, 1/2 and one was dead on. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KHE Posted October 22, 2005 Report Share Posted October 22, 2005 If that doesn't solve the problem you could swap the tires from your daughter's '99 and see if the problem goes away (assuming her car doesn't vibrate). If the vibration is gone after swapping tires, that proves that your vibration is from the existing tires. Kevin '93 Fleetwood Brougham '05 Deville '04 Deville 2013 Silverado Z71 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ranger Posted October 22, 2005 Author Report Share Posted October 22, 2005 Yeah, hers doesn't as I recall and I though of that but do not look forward to it. I may have to do it to prove it one way or the other. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JasonA Posted October 22, 2005 Report Share Posted October 22, 2005 The first place I stopped at talked me out of it. He almost had me convinced that I needed new tires. I said I'd have to think about it. I just can't believe that a little feathering on the edges will cause a vibration. No, it won't. Depending on what you mean by "feathering", it's probably completely normal. If you slide your hand along the tread, front to back, and you feel small "ridges" as you slide from front to back, all of my cars have done that, and they're all aligned correctly. The '97 Seville isn't bad about it at all. The tires on the Grand Caravan will develop that pattern after 1-2k miles. When I rotate them, especially side-to-side when the tires then spin "backwards", they'll make a singing noise for a few thousand miles as those wear ridges begin to wear down, then even eventually start to wear the other way. Jason(2001 STS, White Diamond) "When you turn your car on...does it return the favor?" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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