chazglenn3 Posted October 27, 2006 Report Share Posted October 27, 2006 Well, my new engine arrived today, and now the service guy is trying to hose me. Before I even took the car in to them, I asked what it would cost to do a motor swap using a longblock replacement. The three dealers that I talked to (including this one) all said from 20 to 25 hours of labor. Now that he has the motor, the estimate has gone from $2000 to $3500! He orginally tried to tell me I needed a new water pump, throttle body and all hoses and other items replaced at a grand total of $4100. I then told him that there was no way that I was paying that and to use all the old parts from the bad motor regardless of their "condition". That's when the price became $3500. I'm planning to call some other dealers tomorrow and ask exactly what labor is included in the book rate. Seems to me that it should be known that you have to swap over the manifolds and other external accessories and sensors in a swap to a longblock, and that those items should be included in the 20 hour book rate. I exhausted all of my resources just to buy the motor and set aside the $2000 for the install. Anyone have any input of the situation?? Charles Charles Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WarrenJ Posted October 27, 2006 Report Share Posted October 27, 2006 You may need new hoses and a water pump. I can't judge that, but you can. 20-25 hrs. (three days!) labor for a long block installation strikes me as rather high. Sounds like a "hosing" to me. That engine can be replaced in one day. Some follow-up would be required, of course. At best, it's a twelve hour job. Throttle body replacement?!? That would be a first. Anyone here ever needed a throttle body replacement? I'll bet that might cost an unnecessary buck or two! It's simply never happened. Throttle bodies do not go bad. Follow your intuition; it sounds like you have a "felt need" to go elsewhere. Regards, Warren There is no means of avoiding the final collapse of a boom brought about by credit expansion. The alternative is only whether the crisis should come sooner as the result of a voluntary abandonment of further credit expansion, or later as a final and total catastrophe of the currency system involved. - Ludwig von Mises Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
clarkz71 Posted October 27, 2006 Report Share Posted October 27, 2006 20 to 25 hrs includes the tranfer over of all parts. He's trying to over charge you. Tell him to stick to his original estimate or you'll go somewhere else. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nigel Posted October 27, 2006 Report Share Posted October 27, 2006 wow, that's a big price hike. i know swapping over parts sounds easy but in reality it can sometimes be a pain. all too often a nut or bolt won't budge especially on exhaust manifolds. the N* waterpump is a saga all of it's own and i can appreciate that the garage want to fit a new one. as you have pointed out, they SHOULD have know what was involved when originally pricing the work. all i can say is that i'm glad i can do motor swaps myself, as an old mechanic once told me 'it's just nuts and bolts boy' Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cadillac Jim Posted October 27, 2006 Report Share Posted October 27, 2006 Most rebuilders sell an installation kit that includes water pump, new Delco plugs and plug wires, thermostat, radiator hoses, etc. etc. etc. Jasper charged $300 for the one for my Northstar. Remove and replace a Northstar runs about $1500, including switching parts and installing new parts from the installation kit. The throttle body is not part of any egine installation kit for any make or model car, nor is the dome light, sunroof, right rear fender, gas cap, spare tire, or vacation trip to Maui for four. Tell the dealer that you are consulting with your offshore banking interests and financiers. Then find another mechanic. When you pick one, go with him to pick up the car and all the parts. Once you are out of there, you might consider putting the rubber estimate and other stuff, like the throttle body, in a BBB complaint or some such. If it's a GM dealer, GM wants to hear from you. -- Click Here for CaddyInfo page on "How To" Read Your OBD Codes-- Click Here for my personal page to download my OBD code list as an Excel file, plus other Cadillac data -- See my CaddyInfo car blogs: 2011 CTS-V, 1997 ETC Yes, I was Jims_97_ETC before I changed cars. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WarrenJ Posted October 27, 2006 Report Share Posted October 27, 2006 the N* waterpump is a saga all of it's own and i can appreciate that the garage want to fit a new one. I have to disagree with you. The Northstar water pump is literally a drop-in for a Cadillac dealer. Particularly on a dry block! Regards, Warren There is no means of avoiding the final collapse of a boom brought about by credit expansion. The alternative is only whether the crisis should come sooner as the result of a voluntary abandonment of further credit expansion, or later as a final and total catastrophe of the currency system involved. - Ludwig von Mises Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WarrenJ Posted October 27, 2006 Report Share Posted October 27, 2006 That was funny Jim. There is no means of avoiding the final collapse of a boom brought about by credit expansion. The alternative is only whether the crisis should come sooner as the result of a voluntary abandonment of further credit expansion, or later as a final and total catastrophe of the currency system involved. - Ludwig von Mises Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nigel Posted October 27, 2006 Report Share Posted October 27, 2006 fitting a new pump on a dry block might be an easy task but taking off an old pump from one motor and putting it in another might give rise to difficulties, like who's going to be responsible if the pump fails. i definitely would not buy a used pump from a junkyard. a new pump is a bit of added protection. would you recommend using all the old spark plugs and drive belts? while i do think the price increase is wrong i believe that charles should seriously consider fitting a new water pump along with some new japanese made crank sensors and any other known problem part that is difficult to replace once the motor is fitted. in the grand scheme of things the price is very small and not doing things now might come and bite you in the a**. charles, did you get the motor from custom innovations like you mentioned in your earlier posts? you also posted their warranty conditions which stipulate the 36 month gaurantee is void if the motor overheats. fit a new water pump, it makes sense. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Logan Posted October 27, 2006 Report Share Posted October 27, 2006 Right from the GM labor guide: 1999 Cadillac Seville/ engine replacement. Note: Rate is for Goodwrench replacement. Engine, Universal - Replace OPERATION NUMBER: J1840 LABOR TIME: 11.0 Note: For check and adjust toe-in, refer to operation E2000 and add the applicable times to the regular hours column. Note: Goodwrench Engine. And here is operation 'E2000:' Toe, Front - Adjust OPERATION NUMBER: E2000 LABOR TIME: 1.0 So 12 hours total. That being said...I would like to see it done in 12.. Logan Diagnostic LLC www.airbagcrash.com www.logandieselusa.com www.ledfix.com www.ledfix.com/yukontaillightrepair.html www.ledfix.com/ledreplacements.html www.ledfix.com/j42385toolrental.html Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WarrenJ Posted October 27, 2006 Report Share Posted October 27, 2006 in the grand scheme of things the price is very small and not doing things now might come and bite you in the a**. I'm a fan of that grand scheme. And, I've bite marks on my butt. Regards, Warren So 12 hours total. That being said...I would like to see it done in 12.. I don't think 12 hours (a day and a half) is a stretch for a competent technician. Regards, Warren There is no means of avoiding the final collapse of a boom brought about by credit expansion. The alternative is only whether the crisis should come sooner as the result of a voluntary abandonment of further credit expansion, or later as a final and total catastrophe of the currency system involved. - Ludwig von Mises Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chazglenn3 Posted October 27, 2006 Author Report Share Posted October 27, 2006 Thanks, guys. Logan, I think that is to swap a complete engine assembly, not a longblock without manifolds and accessories. I am pretty much screwed on this because when I went up there today and told him that I was taking the car elsewhere, I was then quoted to put the car together enough to get it out of the garage (it is up on a hoist with the cradle out) together with the work that has already been done was $1275 plus tax. That, plus the cheapest other place I could find ($1300 for the car the way it is) along with towing puts me right back to where the cost is now. I sure wish I was able to do this at home, but I just don't have the tools or space to do it. While I was there they were going on and on about the "gasket and seals" and how they wouldn't use the old parts on a new engine. This really sucks. Should I call Cadillac to see what they have to say? Charles Charles Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chazglenn3 Posted October 28, 2006 Author Report Share Posted October 28, 2006 Well, I called Cadillac and the guy there said "all the dealership are independantly owned and Cadillac doesn't control service pricing. Is there any way to move the car with the cradle out? I just really don't want to spend any more money at this dealer EVER! Charles Charles Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Fred Posted October 28, 2006 Report Share Posted October 28, 2006 Did these clowns have your permission to yank the motor out? If they don't have signed permission f them they ought to be sued Some deadhead makes unauthorized repairs to my car, Thank you very much for the free repair and it had better be right! MerryChristmas Be a Capitalist or work for one. Work for a Capitalist or be one. MerryChristmas Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chazglenn3 Posted October 28, 2006 Author Report Share Posted October 28, 2006 Yeah, I had to authorize them to remove the engine and diagnose the problem when I was trying to get the warranty company to cover the work. I'll bet that a different dealer would have gotten the repair authorized by the warranty company, too. Charles Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Logan Posted October 28, 2006 Report Share Posted October 28, 2006 I think the Goodwrench engine would only be a longblock. The heads would be there but no intake, exhaust or accessories etc. A Goodwrench would not be built up like a engine on the factory assembly line. No way. Typically, a GM engine is issued in one part # to cover several models/years. Example: 2001 Seville vs 2001 Eldorado. Both are the same 'block.' But many of the mounting points/mounts/brackets are different. But the holes are all there to do the swap...make sense? The GM factory could do a Northstar swap in 12 hours, off line in a repair bay, no problem. But they also have a unlimited spare parts supply if any problems 'arise.' Plus they have the best equipment available to do it. Logan Diagnostic LLC www.airbagcrash.com www.logandieselusa.com www.ledfix.com www.ledfix.com/yukontaillightrepair.html www.ledfix.com/ledreplacements.html www.ledfix.com/j42385toolrental.html Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chazglenn3 Posted October 28, 2006 Author Report Share Posted October 28, 2006 I see, thanks for the explanation, Logan. As much as this whole deal sucks, I'm still right around what the cars are selling for here, anyway, and with a new motor. Charles Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chazglenn3 Posted October 31, 2006 Author Report Share Posted October 31, 2006 So the service advisor calls me today and says that the new engine has the wrong head on the forward side...the alternator bolt holes don't line up. So I had Custom Innovations call and talk to the technician working on my car. Sure enough, it turns out that when they built the motor for me he made sure to use a 98-99 block, but mounted 97 heads on it my mistake. He is shipping another head out tomorrow. I asked him if they discussed the timeserts, and he did say the technician knew about the risk and that he had timeserts available if the insert pulled out. Sure would like to get my car back... Charles Charles Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WarrenJ Posted October 31, 2006 Report Share Posted October 31, 2006 WOW! Sorry for the added worry. Hope it works out for you in the end. Regards, Warren There is no means of avoiding the final collapse of a boom brought about by credit expansion. The alternative is only whether the crisis should come sooner as the result of a voluntary abandonment of further credit expansion, or later as a final and total catastrophe of the currency system involved. - Ludwig von Mises Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bruce Nunnally Posted October 31, 2006 Report Share Posted October 31, 2006 Wow, sorry to hear, but good that they are following up well by sending replacement heads. So the service advisor calls me today and says that the new engine has the wrong head on the forward side...the alternator bolt holes don't line up. So I had Custom Innovations call and talk to the technician working on my car. Sure enough, it turns out that when they built the motor for me he made sure to use a 98-99 block, but mounted 97 heads on it my mistake. He is shipping another head out tomorrow. I asked him if they discussed the timeserts, and he did say the technician knew about the risk and that he had timeserts available if the insert pulled out. Sure would like to get my car back... Charles Bruce 2023 Cadillac CT4-V Blackwing Follow me on: Twitter Instagram Youtube Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WarrenJ Posted October 31, 2006 Report Share Posted October 31, 2006 Wow, sorry to hear, but good that they are following up well by sending replacement heads. Understood, but I'd be happier if the replacement head were not installed by a second party. Dealor or not. I'd watch them like a hawk and make certain they properly installed the replacement head. Your next 100,000 miles might depend on it. Regards, Warren There is no means of avoiding the final collapse of a boom brought about by credit expansion. The alternative is only whether the crisis should come sooner as the result of a voluntary abandonment of further credit expansion, or later as a final and total catastrophe of the currency system involved. - Ludwig von Mises Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cadillac Jim Posted October 31, 2006 Report Share Posted October 31, 2006 Right from the GM labor guide: 1999 Cadillac Seville/ engine replacement. Note: Rate is for Goodwrench replacement. Engine, Universal - Replace OPERATION NUMBER: J1840 LABOR TIME: 11.0 Note: For check and adjust toe-in, refer to operation E2000 and add the applicable times to the regular hours column. Note: Goodwrench Engine. And here is operation 'E2000:' Toe, Front - Adjust OPERATION NUMBER: E2000 LABOR TIME: 1.0 So 12 hours total. That being said...I would like to see it done in 12.. A good technician can always beat flat-rate times and do an excellent job. ... when they built the motor for me he made sure to use a 98-99 block, but mounted 97 heads on it my mistake. ... There are a lot of differences between the 1997 head and the 98-99 head. Two of the most important are Compression ratio 10.0:1 instead of 10.3:1 Roller tappets The cams aren't interchangeable by any means, and I wonder how they found cam chains to fit. I think your whole motor is a 1995-1999. Now, THAT is a "Custom Innovation." -- Click Here for CaddyInfo page on "How To" Read Your OBD Codes-- Click Here for my personal page to download my OBD code list as an Excel file, plus other Cadillac data -- See my CaddyInfo car blogs: 2011 CTS-V, 1997 ETC Yes, I was Jims_97_ETC before I changed cars. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ranger Posted October 31, 2006 Report Share Posted October 31, 2006 There are a lot of differences between the 1997 head and the 98-99 head. Two of the most important are 1. Compression ratio 10.0:1 instead of 10.3:1 2. Roller tappets This change did not take effect until the 2000 model year. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nigel Posted October 31, 2006 Report Share Posted October 31, 2006 while your garage takes off the wrong head and refits it, who is going to pay them for the extra labour especially if they have to refit the timeserts. if one head is wrong, what about the other? i'm not familiar with the parts that are available to rebuild a N* head but i hope that both the heads will be built with the same parts, by that i mean oversize valves. your engine replacement is becoming quite an adventure. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chazglenn3 Posted October 31, 2006 Author Report Share Posted October 31, 2006 Thankfully there has been no change on the already inflated cost of the motor swap. I might get homicidal if they even suggest any more money. I practically had to beg them to ship the head with expidited shipping, for crying out loud...what ever happened to customer service? I think the only difference in the head between 97 and 98 was the accessory mounting due to the chassis change...no internal changes until 2000. Charles Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Fred Posted November 1, 2006 Report Share Posted November 1, 2006 Be careful, Becoming homicidal can get you in trouble MerryChristmas Be a Capitalist or work for one. Work for a Capitalist or be one. MerryChristmas Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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