The Fred Posted October 9, 2006 Author Report Share Posted October 9, 2006 Put them on there no change *sigh* If we can't fix it the dealer hasn't got a chance.. Any more ideas? The kit came with 8 of what I've been looking for and 8 small o-rings.. Do the o-rings go... somewhere? They seemed to fit inside the green seals but then they wouldn't go on the injector very well Nothing I took off had an o-ring so I figured they must not go inside the green seals Also when I take the cover off.. do I remove the black grooved thing to get at the phenolic plates or what? MerryChristmas Be a Capitalist or work for one. Work for a Capitalist or be one. MerryChristmas Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BodybyFisher Posted October 9, 2006 Report Share Posted October 9, 2006 The 8 o-rings are for the tops of the injectors where the connect to the fuel rail. Do a search under phenolic and you should find members who cleaned them... Pre-1995 - DTC codes OBD1 >> 1996 and newer - DTC codes OBD2 >> https://www.obd-codes.com/trouble_codes/gm/obd_codes.htm How to check for codes Caddyinfo How To Technical Archive >> http://www.caddyinfo.com/wordpress/cadillac-how-to-faq/ Cadillac History & Specifications Year by Year http://www.motorera.com/cadillac/index.htm Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Fred Posted October 11, 2006 Author Report Share Posted October 11, 2006 From what I can see they talk about it being some kind of spacer for the intake or some of a thing like that.. I guess I'll see it when I take the black thing under the cover off. It's getting to be winter time here and I don't have a heated garage any more so it's going to be a bummer.. MerryChristmas Be a Capitalist or work for one. Work for a Capitalist or be one. MerryChristmas Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BodybyFisher Posted October 11, 2006 Report Share Posted October 11, 2006 Now that you have eliminated the injector seals you need to move on to the next issue. Did you not say that a SHOP determined that you have two bad injectors? Whats going on with that? What symptoms are you having now? Rough idle? Still not able to go 70? Back fire? What codes? Pre-1995 - DTC codes OBD1 >> 1996 and newer - DTC codes OBD2 >> https://www.obd-codes.com/trouble_codes/gm/obd_codes.htm How to check for codes Caddyinfo How To Technical Archive >> http://www.caddyinfo.com/wordpress/cadillac-how-to-faq/ Cadillac History & Specifications Year by Year http://www.motorera.com/cadillac/index.htm Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Fred Posted October 11, 2006 Author Report Share Posted October 11, 2006 Still the exact same issue with no current or new history codes I don't trust the dealers diagnosis- they didn't even notice the bad seals. They also put the wrong bolts in the wrong holes on the engine cover. MerryChristmas Be a Capitalist or work for one. Work for a Capitalist or be one. MerryChristmas Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Fred Posted October 11, 2006 Author Report Share Posted October 11, 2006 No backfires now It just doesn't have any throttle response - just rumbles up slowly in RsPM when I get on the gas and shifts hard Same thing at idle - the rpm slowly goes up "Hmmm....my bet is still on the idle speed control - while the EGR passages may need to be cleaned, they wouldn't have any affect at idle as there is 0% EGR commanded at idle and WOT." Does this mean that the problem can't be the phenolic plates? WoW how can I do this? Fuel Injector testing with the On Board Diagnostics is covered in the Powertrain Manual. See Injector Flow/Resistance Check pg. 6C-28 (note 6 pages) See also Power Balance Check pg. 6C-34 (note 4 pages) -George MerryChristmas Be a Capitalist or work for one. Work for a Capitalist or be one. MerryChristmas Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BodybyFisher Posted October 11, 2006 Report Share Posted October 11, 2006 Check and report codes. I am not sure if the 94 has it but some years have a rubber coupler between the throttle body and the intake manifold, if you have one, check it for cracks, see Logan's thread: http://caddyinfo.ipbhost.com/index.php?sho...ic=5738&hl= I will post a photo of it from my other computer at some point Pre-1995 - DTC codes OBD1 >> 1996 and newer - DTC codes OBD2 >> https://www.obd-codes.com/trouble_codes/gm/obd_codes.htm How to check for codes Caddyinfo How To Technical Archive >> http://www.caddyinfo.com/wordpress/cadillac-how-to-faq/ Cadillac History & Specifications Year by Year http://www.motorera.com/cadillac/index.htm Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bruce Nunnally Posted October 12, 2006 Report Share Posted October 12, 2006 Does it rev evenly in park, or misses still? Could the transmission also be stuck in 2nd for example? Bruce 2023 Cadillac CT4-V Blackwing Follow me on: Twitter Instagram Youtube Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Fred Posted October 12, 2006 Author Report Share Posted October 12, 2006 It's the same awful rumbling up to speed when it is in park You can floor down the gas and it slowly rumbles up in rpm MerryChristmas Be a Capitalist or work for one. Work for a Capitalist or be one. MerryChristmas Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BodybyFisher Posted October 12, 2006 Report Share Posted October 12, 2006 Is it showing any codes? Pre-1995 - DTC codes OBD1 >> 1996 and newer - DTC codes OBD2 >> https://www.obd-codes.com/trouble_codes/gm/obd_codes.htm How to check for codes Caddyinfo How To Technical Archive >> http://www.caddyinfo.com/wordpress/cadillac-how-to-faq/ Cadillac History & Specifications Year by Year http://www.motorera.com/cadillac/index.htm Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PAUL T Posted October 12, 2006 Report Share Posted October 12, 2006 Fred, all you have to do to see if the injectors are leaking is to pull the injectors out and pressurize the system by turning the key on(engine off). If they drip gas then they are bad. By doing a "Power Balance Check" you can pinpoint which cylinder is giving you problems. You manually shut of each injector one at a time and see if the RPM's change. If it does change then that cylinder is good, so you move to the next injector. If the RPM's do not change then that cylinder is causing the problem. I went through this procedure several times until there was a consistency. Mine ended up being a bad coil. Did you ever get the back spark plugs changed? Are your wires not touching any metal? Did you put them back in the same route they came out of? As far as the Phenolic plates, they are plastic plates under the intake manifold between the manifold and the head. You do not need to take the top cover off to clean them. In your manual on page 6C-51 thru 6C-53 it tells you how to get at the plates and it even has some good pictures. You will need to disconnect the electrical connections in step 5. Then there are 4 bolts in the top cover that hold the manifold down. Take them out. Lift the intake manifold up just enough to place some 2X2 blocks under each side. Do not raise it too much unless you unhook the fuel connections and vacuum hoses. I worked from the passenger side and took the plates out that side. Once the plates are out you can scrape the carbon off them. I used a flat screwdriver. Then I used a small vacuum cleaner to suck the crud up that I scraped off the heads. The 2X2 blocks do not give you much room to work but it can be done. The seals are reusable just clean them up. If they are broken replace them because you need them to seal in order to have a good vacuum. I ended up using black silicone gasket sealer to make sure it was sealed. After you reassemble the intake manifold you will notice the car will run better and have a quicker response to the throttle. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BodybyFisher Posted October 12, 2006 Report Share Posted October 12, 2006 Thanks Paul, having a 96, I am not familiar with the 94, its quite different than my 96 and I can only go so far. Pre-1995 - DTC codes OBD1 >> 1996 and newer - DTC codes OBD2 >> https://www.obd-codes.com/trouble_codes/gm/obd_codes.htm How to check for codes Caddyinfo How To Technical Archive >> http://www.caddyinfo.com/wordpress/cadillac-how-to-faq/ Cadillac History & Specifications Year by Year http://www.motorera.com/cadillac/index.htm Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PAUL T Posted October 12, 2006 Report Share Posted October 12, 2006 Thanks Paul, having a 96, I am not familiar with the 94, its quite different than my 96. I do not know why they did not carry on the "Power Balance Test" to the 96 models it is very useful in finding an electrical or an injector problem. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BodybyFisher Posted October 12, 2006 Report Share Posted October 12, 2006 I agree, I had it on my 91, but never had a need to use it.. Thanks Pre-1995 - DTC codes OBD1 >> 1996 and newer - DTC codes OBD2 >> https://www.obd-codes.com/trouble_codes/gm/obd_codes.htm How to check for codes Caddyinfo How To Technical Archive >> http://www.caddyinfo.com/wordpress/cadillac-how-to-faq/ Cadillac History & Specifications Year by Year http://www.motorera.com/cadillac/index.htm Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cadillac Jim Posted October 12, 2006 Report Share Posted October 12, 2006 Please excuse me if I'm missing something, but the last time I checked this thread, around page 3, we had established that pulling one of the two fuel injection fuses had no effect, establishing that the car was running on four cylinders. Whatever happend to that? Are we running on all 8? -- Click Here for CaddyInfo page on "How To" Read Your OBD Codes-- Click Here for my personal page to download my OBD code list as an Excel file, plus other Cadillac data -- See my CaddyInfo car blogs: 2011 CTS-V, 1997 ETC Yes, I was Jims_97_ETC before I changed cars. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Fred Posted October 12, 2006 Author Report Share Posted October 12, 2006 Please excuse me if I'm missing something, but the last time I checked this thread, around page 3, we had established that pulling one of the two fuel injection fuses had no effect, establishing that the car was running on four cylinders. Whatever happend to that? Are we running on all 8? That one night pulling one of the fuel inj fuses while whilling had no effect I did it ten times.. But now it does affect it a little. One fuse when pulled kills the motor, the other one (that use to do nothing) changes the idle very slightly now. MerryChristmas Be a Capitalist or work for one. Work for a Capitalist or be one. MerryChristmas Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Fred Posted October 12, 2006 Author Report Share Posted October 12, 2006 Fred, all you have to do to see if the injectors are leaking is to pull the injectors out and pressurize the system by turning the key on(engine off). If they drip gas then they are bad. By doing a "Power Balance Check" you can pinpoint which cylinder is giving you problems. You manually shut of each injector one at a time and see if the RPM's change. If it does change then that cylinder is good, so you move to the next injector. If the RPM's do not change then that cylinder is causing the problem. I went through this procedure several times until there was a consistency. Mine ended up being a bad coil. Did you ever get the back spark plugs changed? Are your wires not touching any metal? Did you put them back in the same route they came out of? As far as the Phenolic plates, they are plastic plates under the intake manifold between the manifold and the head. You do not need to take the top cover off to clean them. In your manual on page 6C-51 thru 6C-53 it tells you how to get at the plates and it even has some good pictures. You will need to disconnect the electrical connections in step 5. Then there are 4 bolts in the top cover that hold the manifold down. Take them out. Lift the intake manifold up just enough to place some 2X2 blocks under each side. Do not raise it too much unless you unhook the fuel connections and vacuum hoses. I worked from the passenger side and took the plates out that side. Once the plates are out you can scrape the carbon off them. I used a flat screwdriver. Then I used a small vacuum cleaner to suck the crud up that I scraped off the heads. The 2X2 blocks do not give you much room to work but it can be done. The seals are reusable just clean them up. If they are broken replace them because you need them to seal in order to have a good vacuum. I ended up using black silicone gasket sealer to make sure it was sealed. After you reassemble the intake manifold you will notice the car will run better and have a quicker response to the throttle. Well they don't seem to leak, none of them have ever put out a drop when I turned the key.. So that is a good thing Those phenolic plates are the beatenest thing.. those four bolts in the cover doesn't sound like my car because I have the 10 or 12 perimeter bolts holding my cover down... the plates "come out"? See some people in the archives say the cover comes off and then something else has to come off and some folks make it sound as if I can get to them without taking the cover off, I've been reading everything I can find but I still aint sure what those plates look like or how to get to the crazy things I sure wish I could get ahold of a service manual for this automobile.. Closest I can find on ebay is "1994 Cadillac Shop Manual Set Deville/Eldorado/Seville" and it's 100 bucks.. I only get paid every two weeks over here see. I probably should not own a sportscar right now but at least I'm not making any payments that sure helps but I really can't afford to maintain a luxury sport car at this time *sigh* I'd be doing all of this myself even if I had millions but I'd have more tools available- would be able to afford more diagnosis time and a brand new service manual and etc.. Is that the only service manual for my car? I kind of REALLY HATE manuals that try to cover several models.. http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/1994-Cadill...emZ170033620304 MerryChristmas Be a Capitalist or work for one. Work for a Capitalist or be one. MerryChristmas Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BodybyFisher Posted October 12, 2006 Report Share Posted October 12, 2006 That is your manual, my 91 manual covers all three models also. There is VERY little difference between the three models mechanically and when there is (275 vs 300 hp engine, etc) they state the difference.. They will say, on the Deville, etc. You CAN NOT own these cars without the FSM. I have read mine COVER TO COVER, its terrific bathroom or bedtime reading take your pick Pre-1995 - DTC codes OBD1 >> 1996 and newer - DTC codes OBD2 >> https://www.obd-codes.com/trouble_codes/gm/obd_codes.htm How to check for codes Caddyinfo How To Technical Archive >> http://www.caddyinfo.com/wordpress/cadillac-how-to-faq/ Cadillac History & Specifications Year by Year http://www.motorera.com/cadillac/index.htm Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Fred Posted October 12, 2006 Author Report Share Posted October 12, 2006 That is your manual, my 91 manual covers all three models also. There is VERY little difference between the three models mechanically and when there is (275 vs 300 hp engine, etc) they state the difference.. They will say, on the Deville, etc. You CAN NOT own these cars without the FSM. I have read mine COVER TO COVER, its terrific bathroom or bedtime reading take your pick My 1990 manual is for the Seville only.. I like that better MerryChristmas Be a Capitalist or work for one. Work for a Capitalist or be one. MerryChristmas Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BodybyFisher Posted October 12, 2006 Report Share Posted October 12, 2006 You are worrying about DECK CHAIRS, FRED! TO HECK with those kinds of THOUGHTS! When the Andrea Doria was SINKING, Fred was on deck worrying about the ALIGNMENT of the DECK CHAIRS! Get with it man! Pre-1995 - DTC codes OBD1 >> 1996 and newer - DTC codes OBD2 >> https://www.obd-codes.com/trouble_codes/gm/obd_codes.htm How to check for codes Caddyinfo How To Technical Archive >> http://www.caddyinfo.com/wordpress/cadillac-how-to-faq/ Cadillac History & Specifications Year by Year http://www.motorera.com/cadillac/index.htm Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PAUL T Posted October 12, 2006 Report Share Posted October 12, 2006 Take a closer look at your cover, yes there are 10-12 perimeter bolts but there are 4 more inside the perimeter. If you have the cover off are there 4 holes in it? Those 4 bolts let the whole intake manifold lift up off of the Phenolic plates. The plates do come out, they are nothing more than molded plastic spacer with 4 passage ways that sit between the intake and the head with reusable gaskets on the top and bottom. The cover on my 94 Deville did not have to come off. I have had mine out about 4 times. By the way, I got my 94 Manuals (2 book set) on Ebay for $35.00. Just be patient. Check with www.helminc.com they are having a 50% sale, you can get the manuals for $52.00. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Fred Posted October 12, 2006 Author Report Share Posted October 12, 2006 Take a closer look at your cover, yes there are 10-12 perimeter bolts but there are 4 more inside the perimeter. If you have the cover off are there 4 holes in it? Those 4 bolts let the whole intake manifold lift up off of the Phenolic plates. The plates do come out, they are nothing more than molded plastic spacer with 4 passage ways that sit between the intake and the head with reusable gaskets on the top and bottom. The cover on my 94 Deville did not have to come off. I have had mine out about 4 times. By the way, I got my 94 Manuals (2 book set) on Ebay for $35.00. Just be patient. Check with www.helminc.com they are having a 50% sale, you can get the manuals for $52.00. $35?! I don't think you should sell them for that.. I got ahold of my 90 SM for $12 but I was lucky as heck I think you ought to ask 50 as a minimum and get at least 75+!!!! There are no four holes in the middle of the cover on my motor.. I've seen Northy covers with 4 holes in the middle but mine doesn't have them. MerryChristmas Be a Capitalist or work for one. Work for a Capitalist or be one. MerryChristmas Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BodybyFisher Posted October 12, 2006 Report Share Posted October 12, 2006 Fred, Paul will correct me if I am wrong, but I think he means HE bought them for $35. Do you own a digital camera? Take a photo of the top and post it for Paul, we are circle jerking again here. Pre-1995 - DTC codes OBD1 >> 1996 and newer - DTC codes OBD2 >> https://www.obd-codes.com/trouble_codes/gm/obd_codes.htm How to check for codes Caddyinfo How To Technical Archive >> http://www.caddyinfo.com/wordpress/cadillac-how-to-faq/ Cadillac History & Specifications Year by Year http://www.motorera.com/cadillac/index.htm Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Fred Posted October 12, 2006 Author Report Share Posted October 12, 2006 Fred, Paul will correct me if I am wrong, but I think he means HE bought them for $35. Do you own a digital camera? Take a photo of the top and post it for Paul, we are circle jerking again here. I will make someone loan me a camera today I REALLY NEED ONE for this - it will help immensely. You're right that's what he meant. MerryChristmas Be a Capitalist or work for one. Work for a Capitalist or be one. MerryChristmas Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PAUL T Posted October 12, 2006 Report Share Posted October 12, 2006 Fred, Send me a PM with your email address and I will send you the pictures of the intake manifold and the phenolic plates out of my manual. They are too big for me to post here. Yes, I ment I bought mine for $35. Helms has them on sale for $52.00 right now. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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