2002 3400 Chevy

[BodybyFisher]

Bruce, I looked for a non Cadillac section and didn't find it, if there is one you can transfer this to that folder, Thanks

I have previously done a 3400 Pontiac's intake manifold gaskets. My 2002 Monte Carlo 3400 engine has been leaking for a couple of years, we have smelled coolant and it has run hot. It looks like there is gel in the radiator. I have been wanted to do this for a long time, but now that its mis firing now is the time.

Here goes, here is the engine at the start, all of the bolts were loose, I imagine because the gaskets failed.

Here is the upper intake removed, I would love to know how many hours GM allots for this job

Here is where I had an obvious leak

Another shot with of the upper intake off, notice the staggered valves, the push rods are different lengths and MUST be kept in order

Here is with the lower intake off

Nice shot of the manifold gasket, see the damage, there is no torque limiters in these gaskets

Another shot of the damaged gasket where I was leaking

This concerns me quite a bit, I don't know if this is corrosion or if this is a casting defect, but I don't like the look of it, and HOPE that the new gasket seals

Here is how I kept the push rods and rocker arms in order, , this silverware holder was in the trash, perfect!

Will post more later I need to assemble this SOB

[Logan]

Manifold, Intake (Upper) - Replace

OPERATION NUMBER: J0254

LABOR TIME: 2.0

Coverage Code: Emission E, E1

To Clean Parts On Vehicles Over 30,000 Miles/48,000 Kilometers ADD: 0.1-0.3

Manifold, Intake (Lower) - Replace

OPERATION NUMBER: J0258

LABOR TIME: 3.2

Coverage Code: Emission E, E1

To Clean Parts On Vehicles Over 30,000 Miles/48,000 Kilometers ADD: 0.1-0.3

[Cadillac Jim]

This happened on my wife's 1999 Pointiac Grand Am, too, but we caught it while the only symptom was long-term slow loss of coolant. I went for it when I first became aware of the hazards of letting the coolant go more than 5 years, because then I knew what the problem was. I had a mechanic fix it because I didn't have the time, and he told me that some people just let it go until it gets water in the oil, then the bottom end goes.

This is a fine post, with really excellent well-considered photograpy. This one is a keeper.

I don't see why we can't have a section on the 3.4, if the Caterra once used some variant of it. Your pictures look very much like my wife's Grand Am, except that her engine is an HO and the fuel injection looks a little different.

[BodybyFisher]

Manifold, Intake (Upper) - Replace

OPERATION NUMBER: J0254

LABOR TIME: 2.0

Coverage Code: Emission E, E1

To Clean Parts On Vehicles Over 30,000 Miles/48,000 Kilometers ADD: 0.1-0.3

Manifold, Intake (Lower) - Replace

OPERATION NUMBER: J0258

LABOR TIME: 3.2

Coverage Code: Emission E, E1

To Clean Parts On Vehicles Over 30,000 Miles/48,000 Kilometers ADD: 0.1-0.3

Hey thanks Logan, I have about 4.5 hours into it so far, but I clean parts while I go along. I went really fast also, I don't understand their time 5.2 hours seems like its not enough time.. I am beginning the assembly now, thanks

[BodybyFisher]

This happened on my wife's 1999 Pointiac Grand Am, too, but we caught it while the only symptom was long-term slow loss of coolant. I went for it when I first became aware of the hazards of letting the coolant go more than 5 years, because then I knew what the problem was. I had a mechanic fix it because I didn't have the time, and he told me that some people just let it go until it gets water in the oil, then the bottom end goes.

This is a fine post, with really excellent well-considered photograpy. This one is a keeper.

I don't see why we can't have a section on the 3.4, if the Caterra once used some variant of it. Your pictures look very much like my wife's Grand Am, except that her engine is an HO and the fuel injection looks a little different.

Thanks Jim

[Logan]

Most labor 'book' times are scewed toward the low side. They are based on the theory you have done the job 3-4 times.

Hmmmm..maybe why you see sloppy work out of the dealerships. Take your time and the tech will lose money.

The Ford truck with the fancy V8 (like Northstar), the whole cab and bed have to be lifted off to gain access to the engine for repairs. There are some sites on the net that show pictures of this. Wild stuff....The book time is something like 5.5 hours..

Hence the reason Ford dealer techs are joining the UAW.

[BodybyFisher]

Most labor 'book' times are scewed toward the low side. They are based on the theory you have done the job 3-4 times.

Hmmmm..maybe why you see sloppy work out of the dealerships. Take your time and the tech will lose money.

The Ford truck with the fancy V8 (like Northstar), the whole cab and bed have to be lifted off to gain access to the engine for repairs. There are some sites on the net that show pictures of this. Wild stuff....The book time is something like 5.5 hours..

Hence the reason Ford dealer techs are joining the UAW.

You are right, this is the third time I have done this job, I am faster for sure. 5.2 hours however seems to be by the guys that rip engines apart on funny cars between runs....

Did you see the corrosion on one of my water jackets above?, my inclination is to your some sort of RTV, but I remember that KHE said NO... I think the new seal will do the job, I just don't like the pitting, I am seeing..

[Texas Jim]

Did you see the corrosion on one of my water jackets above?, my inclination is to your some sort of RTV, but I remember that KHE said NO... I think the new seal will do the job, I just don't like the pitting, I am seeing..

BBF,

I know you probably won't like this idea... but I will throw it out there anyway.

As bad as those pits are... I would be tempted to get something like J-B Weld for aluminum or something similar.... fill in all the holes and pits.... and carefully .... VERY CAREFULLY, sand it all smooth again.

That way I have a smooth SOLID surface for the gasket to seal to.

Just my opinion.

[BodybyFisher]

That thought did cross my mind Jim, but with the new seals, I am sure that it will seal nice. This is my x's car, when and if it leaks you won't see it from my house... I think it will be fine, the new gaskets have a nice lip... Thanks, great minds think alike...

[JasonA]

Mike, why do you think they go bad? You mentioned that there was no torque-limiting mechanism on the gaskets. Do you think they get over-torqued during assembly, and the gasket gets tweaked?

[JimD]

That does not look like corrosion, Mike. Those little 'vacancies' are what you can expect when working with mass produced aluminum castings.

And that is the reason why Cadillac factory-installed the cooling system supplement for several years.

You probably have it all bolted up by now, but it looks like you will have a good surface for a seal with new gaskets.

[BodybyFisher]

Thanks Jim that makes me feel better

[BodybyFisher]

Well the day was a success and a failure. As I mentioned this coolant leak had been happening for about 2 years, smelling coolant and running hot, its a station car, so it does not go on long trips or sit in traffic, so I let it go. Over the last week she was getting a check engine light, and its been misfiring (P0305), that is the same cylinder where I was having the leak, but that might be a coincidence. So I just figured that, the intake leak had progressed where it was loosing vacuum. The car has about 50K miles on it. Well I did the lower and upper intake manifold gaskets, changed the coolant and oil and filter and started it up and BAM, same P0305. So I am thinking that I have something wrong with #5 cylinder, (plug, ignition wire, coil or injector). It was intermittant at first, she said it was rough and then it cleared up. Any suggestions how to diagnose this mis?

Here is the coolant resouvior, you can see OIL in the water

Here are the intake ports all nice and clean

This will be continued next week

[Logan]

Using GM speak.

The forward cylinder is #1. Zig zag 1-2-3-4-5-6 .....something looks different at port 5.

The port is dirty. Intake ports are are typically very clean.

Look at 3 and 5. Wow...what a difference. #3 is perfect. Scary like Google Earth.

#3 very clean, no cabron build up at all. Perfect. #5 something is going on..

Some issues may clear up. It would be interesting to have a intake gasket and head gasket or valve go at the same time.

I think you need to drive it, go drive the Hell out of it. Think BMW.

Report back.

[BodybyFisher]

Hmm, good eye Logan, I didn't pick up on that. And you are correct, the top left is #5, and the coolant leak was the jacket just above it. I will drive it hard and see what happens. If I have a burnt or hanging valve a compression test should uncover it, how about a leaky injector? It only idles at 500 rpm and wants to stall. I have an extra coil, and maybe swap it in, but wouldnt i get a mis on two cylinders if a coil is bad?

Thanks

[Logan]

Hmm, good eye Logan, I didn't pick up on that. And you are correct, the top left is #5, and the coolant leak was the jacket just above it. I will drive it hard and see what happens. If I have a burnt or hanging valve a compression test should uncover it, how about a leaky injector? It only idles at 500 rpm and wants to stall. I have an extra coil, and maybe swap it in, but wouldnt i get a mis on two cylinders if a coil is bad?

Thanks

Drive it...think BMW. Bet it clears up.

[BodybyFisher]

Hmm, good eye Logan, I didn't pick up on that. And you are correct, the top left is #5, and the coolant leak was the jacket just above it. I will drive it hard and see what happens. If I have a burnt or hanging valve a compression test should uncover it, how about a leaky injector? It only idles at 500 rpm and wants to stall. I have an extra coil, and maybe swap it in, but wouldnt i get a mis on two cylinders if a coil is bad?

Thanks

Drive it...think BMW. Bet it clears up.

Will do, Thanks

[BodybyFisher]

Mike, why do you think they go bad? You mentioned that there was no torque-limiting mechanism on the gaskets. Do you think they get over-torqued during assembly, and the gasket gets tweaked?

Jason, these gaskets have been redesigned, I think there is or was a class action suit on the 3100/3400 engines. If you do a search you will find that these gaskets are a source of trouble. As you can see from the close up, you will see that the damage they have is similar to the damage I had when I did the crossover gaskets on my 96 Deville.

http://caddyinfo.ipbhost.com/index.php?sho...mp;hl=crossover

Here is an interesting link

http://www.automotiveforums.com/t321467.html

[Ranger]

I sure hope this has been taken care of as my daughter has an '04 Grand Am 3400. I do not look forward to this repair.

[BodybyFisher]

I sure hope this has been taken care of as my daughter has an '04 Grand Am 3400. I do not look forward to this repair.

They alot 5.2 hours for this job at GM, so I kinda said, ok, so I have done it twice (on a 3400 Pontiac), so it will take me 7 or 8 hours, so I start at 1 on Saturday because I had a sore throat and got a slow start, and I stop at 6:30 because it was freezing and I was going to see a concert (A tribute to Grover Washington). I had it disassembled, and I cleaned all the parts, but I knew that I had a big job ahead of me Sunday and I was bushed. I worked my BUTT off and I was only half way... I had already blown the GM time budget as I worked 5.5 hours. I had special plans on Sunday that unfortunately got cancelled

I got up Sunday morning and felt like crap, and worked from 1 till 10:30 PM after driving to Walmart to buy Dexcool as I thought I had a gallon and didnt. That is 9.5 hours more so that was a total of 15 hours to do that job, today, every muscle in my body was sore, especially my hammys....

Personally I can't see how I could have gone faster. I ran into bolt problems, even though I used 8 new intake bolts, the threads in the block were rough, and my heart stopped a few times thinking that the threads were F'd up.. Luckily, I ran the old bolts in and out a few times and all was fine. Cleaning the mating surfaces was time consuming. I am sore everywhere today..

I will tell you something however, its a GOOD thing I didnt try to do this on a SUNDAY, I came close to doing it last Sunday...., I would have been in DEEP DO DO...

[JimD]

Other than that Mrs. Lincoln, how was the play?

Results; we need / expect results and feedback. Did your effort repair the problem?

[BodybyFisher]

Other than that Mrs. Lincoln, how was the play?

Results; we need / expect results and feedback. Did your effort repair the problem?

It is still running rough tonight, I am in my house now, but the good news is, that its doing the EXACT same thing it was BEFORE I did the job, whew.. I figure its either a wire, plug, coil or injector. I am hoping its not mechanical a valve but I doubt it. I have not driven the P ISS out of it yet but I will. I am off of it till Friday now.

This is what I went to see, it was an awesome night, bought a CD and had it autographed, this was a supergroup...

<a href="http://www.imactheater.org/grover.html" target="_blank">http://www.imactheater.org/grover.html</a>

BUT, the leak stopped and it runs cool..

[Ranger]

I understand what you are talking about Mike. When I replaced the upper intake "plenum" on my wifes 3800, I started at like 0900. Didn't finish till around 2100. I DO understand "every muscle in my body was sore". I'm getting too old for this stuff. In my defense, I did stop to eat, run to the dealer for some last minute part and stop to machine a new (improved) "stove pipe".

[BodybyFisher]

I understand what you are talking about Mike. When I replaced the upper intake "plenum" on my wifes 3800, I started at like 0900. Didn't finish till around 2100. I DO understand "every muscle in my body was sore". I'm getting too old for this stuff. In my defense, I did stop to eat, run to the dealer for some last minute part and stop to machine a new (improved) "stove pipe".

I am about to retire as her mechanic my obligation is just about over. I never got called for dinner, it was cold and dried out

[Ranger]

Hence EX wife, which begs the question, why? I guess I am lucky in that respect. My wife will call me when dinner or lunch is ready. Even bring me a cold drink or cup of coffee while I am busting my *smurf* in the garage.