BodybyFisher Posted November 20, 2007 Author Report Share Posted November 20, 2007 Hence EX wife, which begs the question, why? I guess I am lucky in that respect. My wife will call me when dinner or lunch is ready. Even bring me a cold drink or cup of coffee while I am busting my *smurf* in the garage. YOU SEE, that's normal...I bring cool drinks to landscapers, trashmen, etc.. Some people are just self absorbed, and its all about them. Yes you are lucky, it's called caring, it has not been like that here in 15 years Pre-1995 - DTC codes OBD1 >> 1996 and newer - DTC codes OBD2 >> https://www.obd-codes.com/trouble_codes/gm/obd_codes.htm How to check for codes Caddyinfo How To Technical Archive >> http://www.caddyinfo.com/wordpress/cadillac-how-to-faq/ Cadillac History & Specifications Year by Year http://www.motorera.com/cadillac/index.htm Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BodybyFisher Posted November 20, 2007 Author Report Share Posted November 20, 2007 I sure hope this has been taken care of as my daughter has an '04 Grand Am 3400. I do not look forward to this repair. It looks like the problem stopped in 03 one of the links I posted above gives a list of vehicles affected. Pre-1995 - DTC codes OBD1 >> 1996 and newer - DTC codes OBD2 >> https://www.obd-codes.com/trouble_codes/gm/obd_codes.htm How to check for codes Caddyinfo How To Technical Archive >> http://www.caddyinfo.com/wordpress/cadillac-how-to-faq/ Cadillac History & Specifications Year by Year http://www.motorera.com/cadillac/index.htm Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ranger Posted November 20, 2007 Report Share Posted November 20, 2007 I feel better already. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jcobz28 Posted November 20, 2007 Report Share Posted November 20, 2007 I just did this on my wifes 1998 Monte Carlo a month ago or so. Always exactly the same failure as you are showing. The gaskets are crap. I installed a Fel-pro "fixer" gasket that was specially designed to address this issue. Instead of being constructed of plastic, it main gasket body is made of metal so that it won't crack. And the squishy plastic around the coolant ports is EXTRA thick. Looks like a good solution over replacement GM gaskets which would be prone to the same eventual failure. Time will tell. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BodybyFisher Posted November 20, 2007 Author Report Share Posted November 20, 2007 I just did this on my wifes 1998 Monte Carlo a month ago or so. Always exactly the same failure as you are showing. The gaskets are crap. I installed a Fel-pro "fixer" gasket that was specially designed to address this issue. Instead of being constructed of plastic, it main gasket body is made of metal so that it won't crack. And the squishy plastic around the coolant ports is EXTRA thick. Looks like a good solution over replacement GM gaskets which would be prone to the same eventual failure. Time will tell. Thanks for that info. If I ever need to do it again, I will look at Fel Pro, they do sound stronger for sure, the new OEM gaskets are redesigned with over torque limits in them.. Thanks Pre-1995 - DTC codes OBD1 >> 1996 and newer - DTC codes OBD2 >> https://www.obd-codes.com/trouble_codes/gm/obd_codes.htm How to check for codes Caddyinfo How To Technical Archive >> http://www.caddyinfo.com/wordpress/cadillac-how-to-faq/ Cadillac History & Specifications Year by Year http://www.motorera.com/cadillac/index.htm Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BodybyFisher Posted November 23, 2007 Author Report Share Posted November 23, 2007 Well, the intake manifold gaskets seem to be holding good, but I still had the P0305 misfire code, so today I worked on getting rid of it. Initially I thought the misfire code was related to the intake manifold gasket problem but it was NOT. So today, I pulled the #5 plug, it was WET with fuel. I pulled the ignition wire, looked into the plug boot and it looked burned and thought GOTCHA... I tested the resistance and it was fine, I thought I would find an 'open', but I got good resistence. Hmmm The plugs looked terrible all of the platinum pads were gone and some of the plugs were terrible. So I replaced the plugs and ignition wires. The car has 60K miles on it. This did NOT solve the misfire problem. I called the parts store, luckily they had the injector and injector seals in stocks IN CASE I needed them.. While I was on the phone, I asked the parts guy, "IF I have a bad COIL, will it affect two cyliners?" and he said YES...hmm that would be my thought also, that a bad coil would hurt two cylinders. Hmmm #2 was NOT wet with fuel and I was only getting a P0305 and NO P0302... hmmm odd. I said to myself, let me go to Pep Boys and buy some Techron, fill the tank and drive the s hit out of it. While I was in Pep Boys (of all places), I stopped by the service desk and asked the mechanic, "Are you replacing a lot of injectors when you have a misfire code?", he said, WE HARDLY EVER REPLACE INJECTORS.. hmmm Then I asked, is it possible for a COIL to only misfire on one cylinder and not both cylinders that are connected to it? He said Yes it is... I came home swapped in a COIL that I have on my bench that I use for diagnostics reasons and BAM! NO MORE MISFIRE!!!! PROBLEM FIXED... The coil that went bad was an aftermarket WELLS coil that I put in only two years ago when I was diagnosting a clogged CAT... The OEM coils are fine, and I pulled the WELLS coil and replaced an OEM coil that I took out two years ago! MISFIRE GONE.... This is another reason to go OEM. I also learned that a bad coil can misfire on on cylinder and NOT the other one that is connected to it.. Maybe this had to do with the coil not being able to recover fast enough and it could recover to fire once but not recover fast enough to fire a second time? I would love to buy and ignition scope. Hope these findings help others in their misfire adventures... Mike Pre-1995 - DTC codes OBD1 >> 1996 and newer - DTC codes OBD2 >> https://www.obd-codes.com/trouble_codes/gm/obd_codes.htm How to check for codes Caddyinfo How To Technical Archive >> http://www.caddyinfo.com/wordpress/cadillac-how-to-faq/ Cadillac History & Specifications Year by Year http://www.motorera.com/cadillac/index.htm Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ranger Posted November 23, 2007 Report Share Posted November 23, 2007 I also learned that a bad coil can misfire on on cylinder and NOT the other one that is connected to it. I'd have never guessed and I still don't understand it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ted tcb Posted November 23, 2007 Report Share Posted November 23, 2007 Good for you .... figuring out a misfire issue without benefit of hi-tech diagnostic equipment. Some dealerships couldn't have done it any better. 1989 FWD Fleetwood, Silver 1995 STS Crimson Pearl on Black leather 1997 STS Diamond White 1999 STS Crimson Pearl 2001 STS Silver 2003 STS, Crimson Pearl Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JimD Posted November 23, 2007 Report Share Posted November 23, 2007 ....I also learned that a bad coil can misfire on on cylinder and NOT the other one that is connected to it.. Maybe this had to do with the coil not being able to recover fast enough and it could recover to fire once but not recover fast enough to fire a second time?Good catch. Recovery time is not an issue, Mike. We ran 8 cylinder engines with one coil (transformer) for decades and decades and recovery time was not a limiting factor for a street engine. The magnetic field collapses the instant the plug arcs over. I have not seen a schematic representation of the transformers used on wasted-spark ignition systems. But I can picture one of the possibilities and that is the secondary winding is center-tapped to ground. Each plug is connected to 1/2 half of the secondary. It is clearly possible for 1/2 half of the secondary winding to fail 'open'. An easy test for this type of ignition system is to swap two coil positions and see if the miss follows the coil. Jim Drive your car. Use your cell phone. CHOOSE ONE ! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BodybyFisher Posted November 24, 2007 Author Report Share Posted November 24, 2007 Thanks Guys, Jim, I am going to look at the ignition schematic on SI to see if they show separate secondaries on the coils, I am sure you are correct, Thanks. Something tells me that our coils dont have separate secondaries, from the description that the guru used to give... Well I took it for a test drive came home and it set a code, a P0171 a LEAN code. I did a search here and found great info from our membership regarding this code being related to unmetered air entering the system, and went out and FOUND the snorkle from the air filter box to the throttle body clamps loose... I must have forgotten to tighten the three clamps, tightened them and the code has not come back.. Pretty amazing.. Thanks to the board.. Pre-1995 - DTC codes OBD1 >> 1996 and newer - DTC codes OBD2 >> https://www.obd-codes.com/trouble_codes/gm/obd_codes.htm How to check for codes Caddyinfo How To Technical Archive >> http://www.caddyinfo.com/wordpress/cadillac-how-to-faq/ Cadillac History & Specifications Year by Year http://www.motorera.com/cadillac/index.htm Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
navion Posted November 24, 2007 Report Share Posted November 24, 2007 Mike, I'm sorry that I didn't read this thread earlier. I would have seconded Texas Jim's recommendation of JB Weld to take care of those corrosion pits. I don't usually recommend something that seems to be a shade tree repair. But in this instance, JB Weld is an ideal material for this type of problem. The most EXTREME case that I used JB Weld in was on an 900 HP Alco locomotive engine. The cylinder sleeves were the wet type that ad their own water jacket. The lower water ports on the sleeve had large "O" rings above and below the water ports. The bore where the "O" rings sat were corroded so badly that the Alco rep said that the block was junk. Seeing that a replacement block was worth more than we paid for the locomotive and also obsolete, I decided to try the JB Weld repair. I built up the corroded areas with JB Weld, carefully sanded the JB back to provide a sealing surface for the "O" rings, and reassembled the engine. That was 15 years ago. To my knowledge, that engine is still running. Take Care, Britt Britt Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ranger Posted November 24, 2007 Report Share Posted November 24, 2007 Now there is a testament to JB Weld. It is still holding on the repair I did to the purgle line nipple on my (previous) '97 Deville. That was about 3 years ago. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BodybyFisher Posted November 24, 2007 Author Report Share Posted November 24, 2007 Mike, I'm sorry that I didn't read this thread earlier. I would have seconded Texas Jim's recommendation of JB Weld to take care of those corrosion pits. I don't usually recommend something that seems to be a shade tree repair. But in this instance, JB Weld is an ideal material for this type of problem. The most EXTREME case that I used JB Weld in was on an 900 HP Alco locomotive engine. The cylinder sleeves were the wet type that ad their own water jacket. The lower water ports on the sleeve had large "O" rings above and below the water ports. The bore where the "O" rings sat were corroded so badly that the Alco rep said that the block was junk. Seeing that a replacement block was worth more than we paid for the locomotive and also obsolete, I decided to try the JB Weld repair. I built up the corroded areas with JB Weld, carefully sanded the JB back to provide a sealing surface for the "O" rings, and reassembled the engine. That was 15 years ago. To my knowledge, that engine is still running. Take Care, Britt Hey thanks Britt, that is great to know. I know that there is a possiblity for a leak at that point but, my x is going to get rid of the car in about a year she doesnt like it. I couldnt dedicate any more time to the job than I have. It seemed that the new seals were placed differently and would not contact that area so I took a chance. As it is, a DTC code came back again, the P0171 an indication of a LEAN mixture. Its funny, I was sitting back before with my eyes closed visualizing the engine going down the diagnostic tree, having done intake gaskets on three 3400's, I am getting a fair amount of experience on the 3100/3400 engine. I am REALLY hoping that the intake seals are in there ok, this will be a disaster if I have to do this job over again. Thanks for the info on the JB Weld, hope all is fine, stop by more often, I miss your input, Mike Pre-1995 - DTC codes OBD1 >> 1996 and newer - DTC codes OBD2 >> https://www.obd-codes.com/trouble_codes/gm/obd_codes.htm How to check for codes Caddyinfo How To Technical Archive >> http://www.caddyinfo.com/wordpress/cadillac-how-to-faq/ Cadillac History & Specifications Year by Year http://www.motorera.com/cadillac/index.htm Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
navion Posted November 24, 2007 Report Share Posted November 24, 2007 I know that I have been absent for too long. The whole layout of this site has changed since I was a regular here. As I explained to Ranger, the wife told me to "get off that da*n computer & contribute around the house!" Anyway, JB Weld and JB Quick are fine products. JB Quick is for people in a hurry. In your situation, I would have applide a thin layer of JB Weld, let it set up, and then smooth it with a flat bastard file. That approach works really well on flat surfaces. I should call the JB Weld people & ask if I can get paid for plugging their product! Take Care, Britt Britt Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cadillac Jim Posted November 24, 2007 Report Share Posted November 24, 2007 Regarding the failure of a wasted-spark coil for one cylinder but not the other -- this will happen if there is spark leakage to ground on one cylinder. Look into the socket where the spark is weak or missing and see if you can see a burned spot at the bottom. Or, knowing the coil is bad, take a hacksaw to it and find the breakdown. You can be sure that the high-voltage terminal for the cylinder that is missing has broken down the insulation and is arcing to ground instead of through the plug. JimD's recommendation to switch the cylinders and see if the miss folows one side of the coil is the simplest on-car test. You may need to make a plug wire or two to reach. -- Click Here for CaddyInfo page on "How To" Read Your OBD Codes-- Click Here for my personal page to download my OBD code list as an Excel file, plus other Cadillac data -- See my CaddyInfo car blogs: 2011 CTS-V, 1997 ETC Yes, I was Jims_97_ETC before I changed cars. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cadman1940 Posted December 22, 2007 Report Share Posted December 22, 2007 Mike, why do you think they go bad? You mentioned that there was no torque-limiting mechanism on the gaskets. Do you think they get over-torqued during assembly, and the gasket gets tweaked? Hi Cadman1940 here the pits are caused by the coolant going acidic. If we maintain the PH balance in the cooling system it willnot happen and you won't have heater cores to replace because they corroded inside and became clogged. Cadman1940 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BodybyFisher Posted December 22, 2007 Author Report Share Posted December 22, 2007 Mike, why do you think they go bad? You mentioned that there was no torque-limiting mechanism on the gaskets. Do you think they get over-torqued during assembly, and the gasket gets tweaked? Hi Cadman1940 here the pits are caused by the coolant going acidic. If we maintain the PH balance in the cooling system it willnot happen and you won't have heater cores to replace because they corroded inside and became clogged. Cadman1940 Hmm, that's interesting, it was only pitted in that location, it has been leaking in that location for about 20,000 miles and about 2 years, that would have been LONG before the mileage and time limits were up on the coolant, and it has dexcool. Its a 2002 which means its good to 2007 TIME WISE.... and the car has 50,000 miles on it. I want to think that it was a casting defect more than a coolant change/acidity problem. Those pit marks were NOT seen anywhere else but THAT location, Mike Pre-1995 - DTC codes OBD1 >> 1996 and newer - DTC codes OBD2 >> https://www.obd-codes.com/trouble_codes/gm/obd_codes.htm How to check for codes Caddyinfo How To Technical Archive >> http://www.caddyinfo.com/wordpress/cadillac-how-to-faq/ Cadillac History & Specifications Year by Year http://www.motorera.com/cadillac/index.htm Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cadillac Jim Posted December 22, 2007 Report Share Posted December 22, 2007 A bad radiator cap can take some off of that 5 years. My wife's 1999 Pontiac 3.4 car needed the same repair after letting the coolant go too long. The only symptom was that it was using a little coolant. Visible pitting would have caused the casting to be rejected. -- Click Here for CaddyInfo page on "How To" Read Your OBD Codes-- Click Here for my personal page to download my OBD code list as an Excel file, plus other Cadillac data -- See my CaddyInfo car blogs: 2011 CTS-V, 1997 ETC Yes, I was Jims_97_ETC before I changed cars. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BodybyFisher Posted December 23, 2007 Author Report Share Posted December 23, 2007 I guess what I was saying was that the coolant did not appear to go beyond the point of needing to be replaced. Pre-1995 - DTC codes OBD1 >> 1996 and newer - DTC codes OBD2 >> https://www.obd-codes.com/trouble_codes/gm/obd_codes.htm How to check for codes Caddyinfo How To Technical Archive >> http://www.caddyinfo.com/wordpress/cadillac-how-to-faq/ Cadillac History & Specifications Year by Year http://www.motorera.com/cadillac/index.htm Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ranger Posted December 23, 2007 Report Share Posted December 23, 2007 How does a bad radiator cap reduce the 5 year coolant change? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cadillac Jim Posted December 23, 2007 Report Share Posted December 23, 2007 How does a bad radiator cap reduce the 5 year coolant change? Contamination. -- Click Here for CaddyInfo page on "How To" Read Your OBD Codes-- Click Here for my personal page to download my OBD code list as an Excel file, plus other Cadillac data -- See my CaddyInfo car blogs: 2011 CTS-V, 1997 ETC Yes, I was Jims_97_ETC before I changed cars. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ranger Posted December 23, 2007 Report Share Posted December 23, 2007 Contamination? You'll have to explain that one Jim. A bad radiator cap does not hold pressure. How does that contaminate the coolant and with what? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ranger Posted December 25, 2007 Report Share Posted December 25, 2007 Bump Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BodybyFisher Posted December 25, 2007 Author Report Share Posted December 25, 2007 Remember that song, The Bump, that was one of the VERY few dances I liked and didn't feel like an idiot doing it Pre-1995 - DTC codes OBD1 >> 1996 and newer - DTC codes OBD2 >> https://www.obd-codes.com/trouble_codes/gm/obd_codes.htm How to check for codes Caddyinfo How To Technical Archive >> http://www.caddyinfo.com/wordpress/cadillac-how-to-faq/ Cadillac History & Specifications Year by Year http://www.motorera.com/cadillac/index.htm Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
steve6 Posted December 25, 2007 Report Share Posted December 25, 2007 I just gotta say in terms of the timing, I do agree with the book hours... I have done 2 jobs for this... one was a 3100 intake gasket... I do not recall it taking me over 5 hours, with the right tools(air tools woop!), and the knowledge to know what to remove (not standing there going , "hmm what to take off next", for 20 mins between part removal) it really shouldn't take that long.... And I had to fix the gasket on the oil pump thingy on a monte carlo z34 DOCH 3400 (this is the stupidist job ever and mechanics have told me it is very common). Bascially I had to remove the whole top end, upper and lower intake manifold, and pull the oil pump drive up about an inch, silicone the *smurf* outta it, and put it back down and re assembled. That took a good 5-6 hours as well, but no more... I was so annoyed with that job I didnt even replace the intake gasket while I had it all apart, lol. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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