JIMDTS Posted February 18, 2004 Report Share Posted February 18, 2004 I have to go back in 1000 miles to have the dealer check the oil. Upon talking to the service manager about this program He mention if the car is consuming oil the fix is change the pistons and rings. He mentioned there is a bullitin about this and gm has a new type skirted piston to correct this. Sounds fishy to me. And I'll be a son of a B the I chacked the oil its at the top of the max fill mark maybe slightly above I went back in to ask about this and again they mentioned we put 8qts. in I told the 8 is too much and they say it's not it's correct So now what this is getting to be interesting. Has me stumped about the 8qts. I believe it should be 7.5 qts.But what can you do I say 7.5 they say 8 and put 8 in and I'm on the consumption program..The engine has 37.5k on it now so I'll be back in a thousand miles.I don't want to have new pistons and rings if this is the case but it is interesting to me.I think this would open up a whole can of worms..in the long run.. Jim Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
98Concours Posted February 18, 2004 Report Share Posted February 18, 2004 Doesn't it say in your owners manual that it takes 7.5qts? If so, then I'd show that to them and ask why there's a difference. I'd also call cadillac and ask them how much oil it takes. We all know it's 7.5qts. Have you done some WOTS to see if that helps in the oil consumption? Jeff Jeff 98 Concours 90 Seville 04 Corvette Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
95SLS Posted February 18, 2004 Report Share Posted February 18, 2004 THe dealer will say "We put an oversized filter on for better filtering." Truth is they use bulk oil and just fill the heck out of it. They ALWAYS overfill mine! I just say "I'll put the last qt in give it to me! MC Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KHE Posted February 18, 2004 Report Share Posted February 18, 2004 It states right in the owner's manual: 7.5 quarts with a new filter. If they fill it to 8 qts, it will just exaggerate the oil consumption. Kevin '93 Fleetwood Brougham '05 Deville '04 Deville 2013 Silverado Z71 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JIMDTS Posted February 18, 2004 Author Report Share Posted February 18, 2004 Yes i done a bunch of wot a couple days ago 20+ times I really blew it out if there was any carbon it's gone. The manual states 7.5 gts of oil. The dealer says 8 I mentioned this and they just keep saying 8qts. Now it's a little above the high mark on the full side.It should not cause a problem but I have to go by them for now. I should just change the oil myself but I do want to go on record if this is really the start of a problem. Interesting where they come up with 8qts. I should have to not change the oil myself after all this is a cadillac and a cadillac dealer doing the work they should know the product. What was interesting is after talking to the service mgr. he mentioned they change quite a few rings and pistons for this problem.High oil consumption. I don't think I have that problem but I did use 2 qts. in 1450 miles. but I did not check the fill level after the last oil change.This one I know is 8qts. Go figure??Has me stumped.. Jim Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JasonA Posted February 18, 2004 Report Share Posted February 18, 2004 I certainly understand your desire to "get on the books" and have them document your oil usage, so they can fix it if it's excessive, but I still recommend going to a DIFFERENT dealership. These guys seem to insist on incorrect information and it would worry me to let them do any further work on the car. It's true that they should know the product, but in this case, it doesn't seem they do, and they even scoff at the correct info. I'd take my business elsewhere if you can. Jason(2001 STS, White Diamond) "When you turn your car on...does it return the favor?" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JIMDTS Posted February 18, 2004 Author Report Share Posted February 18, 2004 Hi Jason I sort of agree about going to another dealer to a point.But I purchased the car from them and so far I have purchased 6 cars from them and they have treated me good so far on them all.But on all my other cars I changed the oil on this one I had to take it back for the front heated seats inop.So I figured let them do it.(change the oil) I do know that at any dealer the service mgr. has a lot of descretion in his calls and if something you want fixed could be determined one way or the other fix or not to fix I know that the first thing they look at is did you purchase this car here.SO that's why I always go back to the same dealer I purchesed the car from them plus it's the closest to my house about 15 min. drive for me.But this is the first time I had them change the oil in a long long time as I mentioned I usually do it myself.That way I use the brand of oil I like regular Qstate5w/30 along with a Delco filter you can get it anywhere and it's cheap enough. The dealer uses Valvoline oil with the delco filter.Thats a brand thats ok but I prefer q state.. on every car that I used q state oil had managed to get high miles with no problem with the engine.So I had good luck with that brand so I stick with it. Jim Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JACK Posted February 18, 2004 Report Share Posted February 18, 2004 I Always Put In 6.5 QTS AT OIL CHANGE TIME, WAIT FOR CHECK OIL LEVEL LIGHT TO COME ON AND ADD 1 QT. USUALLY GOOD TO NEXT OIL CHANGE. I HAVE FOUND THAT BY LEAVING IT DOWN ONE QT. THAT OIL CONSUMPTION IS MUCH BETTER. HOPE THIS MIGHT HELP SOME. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jinxed45 Posted February 18, 2004 Report Share Posted February 18, 2004 You should just change the oil yourself. That way, no BSing around. Things won't misteriously break after you visited the dealer. You know exactly what was done, and it's cheaper. If you have the time. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rjhat Posted February 18, 2004 Report Share Posted February 18, 2004 If a NS engine were meant to hold 8 qts of oil, then it would not go over full on the dipstick. And furthermore, if cadillac changed the recommended oil capacity, i think they would change the dipstick to reflect this. I dont think an extra half qt is going to hurt anything, but I do think they are adding the extra oil to offset the consumption and avoid giving you another engine. If I were you,I would atleast call another dealership to see if the oil capacity was really changed. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rek Posted February 19, 2004 Report Share Posted February 19, 2004 They said they used a different oil filter. Check the "Different "oil filter out and see if they did. While you're at it, don't loose that extra 1/2 quart of oil, lol. If they didn't use the recommended filter (Manual specified), what's with that? If they don't follow the "Generals Rules-GM", what's with that? rek Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dasher Posted February 19, 2004 Report Share Posted February 19, 2004 When I was at the Dealer's yesterday, they showed me a Caddy bulletin about oil useage and one of the things they said was "7.5 quarts - do not overfill as the PCV valve will just scavenge the extra oil out anyway" or words to that effect. I would take a file and mark the dipstick where the oil level is now and then make them fill it up to that point when you take it back for the test. I find that the oil goes down pretty fast from "Full" but it seems like it will run forever at the "Add" mark and at least a few others have had the same experience. I'm still on the fence about having mine worked on. I hate to look a gift horse in the mouth but I own horses and I know from grim experience that a "gift horse" can be a bunch of problems in disguise. I would hate to trade a problem that I can live with for one that I can't. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JIMDTS Posted February 19, 2004 Author Report Share Posted February 19, 2004 Hi Dasher I was at the dealer today also.I seen one in the shop that was having a ring job for the oil consumption problem. I would not have a problem with them doing the job if I get the block time serted all the holes for the head. GM won't pay for that only the ones if it gets stripped out during the head torque. If I can get the tech to time sert the block on the side which I will pay for out of pocket I would not have a problem getting new pistons and rings.I don't know what the results will be on mine but the oil fill problem was corrected today to the 7.5qt level.My concern about the time serts is to cover my A-- down the road.What I was told it depends on the year of the car as to wether you get pistons and rings or just rings.The new pistons are supposed to be the same as the 04 northstars teflon coated sides and redesigned rings. I hope I don't have to go down that road.I hear you about a gift horse or more like a trojan horse.I owned a few horses too and know they are not always what you think they are.. Cheers Jim Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tjtjwdad Posted February 19, 2004 Report Share Posted February 19, 2004 Jim, I too just had my STS placed on a oil monitoring program. I will be up front I don't do as many WOT as I should but then again the traffic doesn't always allow for it. Maybe it's me but I have difficulty understanding the proper way to check the oil level. Sure the manual dexterity part is easy pull it out ... wipe it off ... stick it back in ... pull it out read the level ... stick it back in and be on your way. I' have read that it should be checked with the oil hot. Why? I find it difficult to believe oil expands THIS much in THIS particular engine. I have been changing oil for a lot of years and the differences between hot and cold were miniscule to non-existent. None the less though if checked hot I will (for my own peace of mind) wait 1/2 hour before checking the oil level to make sure all the oil has drained back in the crankcase. It amazes me it takes this long for the oil to drain. I know its a lot but 30 minutes ... I use to have a SHO with a DOHC 24 Valve engine and it used 6 quarts and it didn't require a long wait like this engine. I'm not complaining just curious. Should it be a case of whether to pull the engine and do rings ... pistons or what ever, I would think long and hard before I would do that. My main concern would be the potential collateral damage to other components in the process. Oh, it may still be under warranty but it could turn into a PITA in the meantime. All I'm doing now is adding a qt every 1000-1500 miles. Unfortunately the car has seen mainly city driving since I bought it because I didn't want the factory warranty to run out to quickly. That will soon change with more highway driving with more opportunities for the WOT clean out. Other than that, I have no issues. The car runs like a champ. In my scenario I would probably just live with it. Jim White Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JohnnyG Posted February 20, 2004 Report Share Posted February 20, 2004 Wait a minute! You ONLY have to check the oil hot if you plan on running it at maximum capacity....the FULL mark. I check mine stone cold, but I only keep it at the ADD mark when cold. The FULL mark is for people that want to change their oil...or most likely, have somebody change it, then not worry about the level until either 1 of two things happen. Either the "Oil Level low" light comes on or the "change oil soon" warning comes up. For the rest of us, the ADD mark is fine, since that's where 7 quarts of oil in a cold engine, new FULL oil filter, ends up on the dipstick. The engine will suffer NO damage whatsoever if run at 5 quarts....just the "Oil Level Low" warning will come on. The extra 1/2 quart, to 7.5 should NOT take the oil level to the full mark when cold....but it should when hot. Now for the rest of us nitpickers out there, how hot is hot? I think hot is at normal operating temp...like just coming back from a nice 30 minute drive and letting the car sit for a couple of minutes before checking the oil level. SOMEBODY might think that hot means "HOT", whereas you need to take a car out to the dragstrip, do three time trials while powerbraking to stall at the line...this is not the "hot" that is described in the owners manual. Between this board and the other one I visit, an "OIL NUT" board, I think I could write a book on how to check the oil level. There would be a different chapter for each car..with sub chapters for every different engine offered in that model. This information applies to my 1999 Northstar STS in particular, but SHOULD apply to all Northstars. Should I elaborate on any of this? Never underestimate the amount of a persons greed. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
spr01sts Posted February 20, 2004 Report Share Posted February 20, 2004 Hey Jim My caddy dealership uses Q state 10-30 in my 01 sts. My car just turned 30k and only burns about 1/2 a quart between oil changes. In fact yesterday was the first time I had to add oil. I was just curious how long have you had your DTS? And if you've had it for awhile did it just start consuming oil? I understand your concern with the rings/pistons verse a new Northstar opening a can of worms. A friend of mines mother has a 89 Allante, I know it doesn't have a northstar, but the car only has 39K on it. Anyway about a year ago they had rings and some head work done by a caddy dealer in florida. This was the first time I can remember the Allante having any work besides a new radio and regular service. Since the engine work they have had one problem after another with the car trans., sensors, etc. SPR Atl, GA Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pushinthelac Posted February 20, 2004 Report Share Posted February 20, 2004 Jack...I do the exact same thing. Adding that extra quart when needed keeps it good until the next change. How many quarts does a caddy take compared to a normal smaller car? Is there any difference? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ranger Posted February 20, 2004 Report Share Posted February 20, 2004 I find it difficult to believe oil expands THIS much in THIS particular engine. I have been changing oil for a lot of years and the differences between hot and cold were miniscule to non-existent. After hearing the "check it hot therory" on this board, I decided to see what the difference was. It turned out to be about 1/16-1/8". Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KHE Posted February 20, 2004 Report Share Posted February 20, 2004 I' have read that it should be checked with the oil hot. Why? I find it difficult to believe oil expands THIS much in THIS particular engine. I have been changing oil for a lot of years and the differences between hot and cold were miniscule to non-existent. None the less though if checked hot I will (for my own peace of mind) wait 1/2 hour before checking the oil level to make sure all the oil has drained back in the crankcase. It amazes me it takes this long for the oil to drain. I know its a lot but 30 minutes ... Should it be a case of whether to pull the engine and do rings ... pistons or what ever, I would think long and hard before I would do that. My main concern would be the potential collateral damage to other components in the process. Oh, it may still be under warranty but it could turn into a PITA in the meantime. All I'm doing now is adding a qt every 1000-1500 miles. Unfortunately the car has seen mainly city driving since I bought it because I didn't want the factory warranty to run out to quickly. That will soon change with more highway driving with more opportunities for the WOT clean out. Other than that, I have no issues. The car runs like a champ. In my scenario I would probably just live with it. Jim White Jim, The extra oil capacity in the Northstar accounts for the difference in hot and cold readings. It doesn't take 30 minutes for the oil to drain back into the pan after the engine is turned off - all you need to wait is about 5 minutes. Kevin '93 Fleetwood Brougham '05 Deville '04 Deville 2013 Silverado Z71 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JIMDTS Posted February 20, 2004 Author Report Share Posted February 20, 2004 Hi Spr I had the DTS since last may about 10 months. The car is a great car no problems so far just minor crap as with any car. I usually changed the oil and filter myself.However on this car I had the dealer change the oil. Shoot I only put about 4000 miles on the since last may 33500k at time of purchase,37500 nowI also have a 98 deville that's a second car for my wife and most of the time I just grab what ever car is the easiest to get out of the drive way.Most of the time my wife pins me in so I just take her car and drive it and the dts just either sits or just gets short trips to the store or what ever.I don't know if the dts really has an oil consumption problem. When I purchased the car it was serviced oil changed etc. So at about 1500 miles I figured I would have the dealer change the oil just due to you never know what was in there in the first place.Then while at the dealer I figured I would have it changed again which was the last time it was changed I never checked the oil level fill after the last oil change just drove it then in 1450 miles I started the car and got a check oil light on the dic panel So now I was really 2 quarts low in 1450 mile which I added 2qts myself.So I figured shoot 2 qts. in 1450 mlies I have to take it back to the dealer anyway so I'll mention to them that I used 2 qts. in 1450 miles Now they wanted to put my on an oil consumption program to monitor the oil usage,So it was another oil change 2 days ago and I have to go back in 1000 miles so they can check how much it used,I just wanted to cover my A-- in case this one has a problem.It runs great no complaints on my part. I can live with burning some oil but I don't want to have a car that winds up burning a qt. every 100 miles or so. Time will tell as too whats up with the car But from what I understand there are several methods to correct this clean the pistons and rings or change the rings and pistons it all depends on what shows up with the consumption results. And I do have a very slight cold rap when you start the car in the morning after it has been sitting outside say overnight say 12hrs. or so you can hear the cold rap mind you very very slight and it goes away in a couple minutes as the car warms up I don't think this is a cause for concern but this morning when I started the car I had the hood open and was listening to the engine and the rap was there ever so slightly.From what I understand if you have the cold rap and high oil consumption what else could it be other than the pistons and rings.I have no concern at this time I just want to be on record if this is the start of something.The car was not driven much nor was it driven hard I have since been doing some wot here and there LOL it can be fun but today I managed to do 4 wot just to see if that helps. I will kick it in the A-- here and there and hopefully no problems will turn up..On all my cars I like to keep all the fluids clean heck I changed the brake fluid since I has this one and the coolant just to be sure all is well when you buy these used cars I like to change that stuff as i mentioned you never know what was in there in the first place.This was a cadillac certified used car but I think on most of that certified check Is just yep it has fluid or yep that works etc etc..All in all it is a geat car and I like the car shoot privilages of cadillac ownership go figure!!! Cheers Jim Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KevinW Posted February 20, 2004 Report Share Posted February 20, 2004 After hearing the "check it hot therory" on this board, I decided to see what the difference was. It turned out to be about 1/16-1/8". How hot is hot? I've observed about a 1/4 of a quart difference between hot and cold, and I wasn't trying to get the oil REALLY hot. BTW, I agree that the risks FAR outweigh any possible benefit from such an invasive procedure. Assuming everything is 100%, there's the issue of higher internal friction from the increased ring tension (higher fuel consumption, less power), and potentially shorter service life from the step land second ring (less wear area) and reduced lubrication to the top ring (if the car sees a lot of WOT). ___________________________________________________ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tjtjwdad Posted February 20, 2004 Report Share Posted February 20, 2004 KHE Posted on Feb 19 2004, 06:42 PM Jim,The extra oil capacity in the Northstar accounts for the difference in hot and cold readings. It doesn't take 30 minutes for the oil to drain back into the pan after the engine is turned off - all you need to wait is about 5 minutes. I glad to hear that. Heck, if it was that slow draining back to the oil pan you could put 12 qts in there ... it just wouldn't matter. What started this whole thing for me was I asked; "What is the normal oil consumption for this engine?" The reply was 1 qt in every 1500 miles. Earlier that day I had checked my oil level when gassing. The car had been shut off for about 10-12 minutes when I checked it. It read just below the "ADD" mark with 1200 miles on it. The dealer initially thought I didn't wait long enough before checking. This is when the 30 minute wait period comment was made. I was thinking the return passages must be pretty small if it takes this long. So anyway it is now on an pil monitoring program. Like I posted earlier, I don't know if city driving as oppsed to highway driving makes a difference. Jim White Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bigshot Posted February 20, 2004 Report Share Posted February 20, 2004 Few things.....my parents have a 1990 300SEL Mercedes with the 6cyl. It "loses" a qt every 1000 miles like clockwork whether on the highway from NJ to FL or around town. Oil is changed every 2500-3000 miles(Valvoline 20/50) and it has almost 180k on it. It has "lost" oil since new and so do 99% of the 300's. I bought a new mustang GT back in 1993 and EVERY 1000 miles the light would come on and I would add a qt. Again this car had it's oil changed every 2500-3000 miles. Ford claims it is normal to "lose" oil being they build their engines loose for better upper end lubrication. At about 15k I went to Mobil 1 being I was changing my oil every 3 weeks and it was geting to be a pain. I NEVER added a qt again between 10,000 mile oil change intervals. Since then I have run EVERY car I owned on synthetic oil and I change the oil filter at 5k and drain and change at 10K. In 10 years I have NEVER added a qt between changes in ANY of these cars which range from Caddy's(3) to Miatas(2), Jettas(2) and Mercedes(3) and 1 Toyota Tacoma. When my oil is due in this new SLS, synthetic here I come. Will be interesting to see, especially if I have to add some before then. I have only had the car 1200 miles so far and have not even checked the oil. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ranger Posted February 20, 2004 Report Share Posted February 20, 2004 After hearing the "check it hot therory" on this board, I decided to see what the difference was. It turned out to be about 1/16-1/8". How hot is hot? I've observed about a 1/4 of a quart difference between hot and cold, and I wasn't trying to get the oil REALLY hot. I this case "HOT" was normal operating tempurature. It was after a :45 min. ride home from work (60-70 mph). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KevinW Posted February 20, 2004 Report Share Posted February 20, 2004 I this case "HOT" was normal operating tempurature. It was after a :45 min. ride home from work (60-70 mph). Do you have an oil temperature gauge? Coolant temperature does not reflect oil temperature. Continuous heavy throttle driving will really heat it up, like pulling a heavy trailer up a grade or running near top speed (not governed). ___________________________________________________ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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