Sign in to follow this  
Dhen7181

04 Cadillac deville P0016

Recommended Posts

@BodybyFisher just got car back out of shop 2 weeks ago. Before I sent it in it started with a little help from some starter fluid. It ran for about 1 minute with a bad misfire and would only stay running with my foot on the gas until it eventually died out. We tried to restart it again afterwards with no success. I checked the codes again and it was still showing the P0016 cam code along with a P0300 code misfire code. Checked the price of parts and labor which came out to be $1500 for labor and another $1800 for a used engine with low miles. With that being said looks like a good project for me and my dad to work on to cut the cost way down ?. Is there any other advice or anything else I should look into trying before beginning on the long journey? 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I contacted you because there is another member here having the SAME problem.  I will link you.

Did you consider or did you replace the CAM sensor?  That P0016 is quite serious and can be indicative of a bad timing chain tensioner / jumped timing or just simply a bad CAM sensor.  

See this, its a current thread, you both have the same problem

 


Pre-1995 - DTC codes OBD1  >>

1996 and newer - DTC codes OBD2 >> https://www.obd-codes.com/trouble_codes/gm/obd_codes.htm

How to check for codes Caddyinfo How To Technical Archive >> http://www.caddyinfo.com/wordpress/cadillac-how-to-faq/

Cadillac History & Specifications Year by Year  http://www.motorera.com/cadillac/index.htm

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

@BodybyFisher oh wow I see I’m not the only one that has ran into this problem. Thank you for connecting us. 

But in reference to the CAM sensor, I did replace it around the same time I replaced the crankshaft sensors. After replacement it started ran for maybe 5-10 seconds and died out again. When attempting to re start it the 2nd time it wouldn’t

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Thanks for getting back.

Now that I see you replaced the CAM sensor I am beginning to think it is more serious.  The only way to confirm this would be to remove the CAM covers and front cover to check the timing marks and tensioners.  

@Logan. Is there a way to detetmine if an engine has jumped its timing besides pulling the cam covers and front cover and checking the timing marks?  This member has the P0016, and its the same code @Otten33 has that you posted in.  


Pre-1995 - DTC codes OBD1  >>

1996 and newer - DTC codes OBD2 >> https://www.obd-codes.com/trouble_codes/gm/obd_codes.htm

How to check for codes Caddyinfo How To Technical Archive >> http://www.caddyinfo.com/wordpress/cadillac-how-to-faq/

Cadillac History & Specifications Year by Year  http://www.motorera.com/cadillac/index.htm

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Lets wait for @Logan to see if there is an easy way to handle this.   But yes, the cam covers and the front cover can be removed with the engine in the car, I did it. 

Here is a photo taken laying on the ground, front cam cover off and front cover removed.  The crank pulley must be removed with an appropriate puller. 

In this photo, you will notice that the cheap chain guide (engine was rebuilt) lost its wearing surface (a Teflon or vinyl surface) and the aluminum alloy was torn into by the chain.   The smaller white circle if part of the vinyl wearing surface jammed into the side.

If you did this, you would line up the index marks on the crank sprocket, intermediate sprocket and 4 cam gear marks to be sure the timing wasn't jumped along with inspecting the guides and tensioners.

108_2390_zpsa6af9d03.JPG


Pre-1995 - DTC codes OBD1  >>

1996 and newer - DTC codes OBD2 >> https://www.obd-codes.com/trouble_codes/gm/obd_codes.htm

How to check for codes Caddyinfo How To Technical Archive >> http://www.caddyinfo.com/wordpress/cadillac-how-to-faq/

Cadillac History & Specifications Year by Year  http://www.motorera.com/cadillac/index.htm

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Fisher knows more about it than I do...

Here is the GM service info..

 

DTC P0016 
Circuit Description
The powertrain control module (PCM) uses the crankshaft position (CKP) sensor and the camshaft position (CMP) sensor information to monitor the correlation between the crankshaft and camshaft positions. If the PCM detects a deviation between the CMP target and the CKP, DTC P0016 will set.

Conditions for Running the DTC
    •  DTCs P0335, P0336, P0340, P0341, P0385, P0386, P1372 are not set. 

    •  The engine is operating for more than 5 seconds. 

Conditions for Setting the DTC
The PCM detects a deviation in the relationship between the camshaft and the crankshaft.

Action Taken When the DTC Sets
    •  The control module illuminates the malfunction indicator lamp (MIL) on the second consecutive ignition cycle that the diagnostic runs and fails. 

    •  The control module records the operating conditions at the time the diagnostic fails. The first time the diagnostic fails, the control module stores this information in the Failure Records. If the diagnostic reports a failure on the second consecutive ignition cycle, the control module records the operating conditions at the time of the failure. The control module writes the operating conditions to the Freeze Frame and updates the Failure Records. 

Conditions for Clearing the MIL/DTC
    •  The control module turns OFF the malfunction indicator lamp (MIL) after 3 consecutive ignition cycles that the diagnostic runs and does not fail. 

    •  A current DTC, Last Test Failed, clears when the diagnostic runs and passes. 

    •  A history DTC clears after 40 consecutive warm-up cycles, if no failures are reported by this or any other emission related diagnostic. 

    •  Clear the MIL and the DTC with a scan tool. 

Diagnostic Aids
    •  Inspect the engine for any recent engine mechanical repairs. An incorrectly installed camshaft, crankshaft, or timing chain can cause this DTC to set. 

    •  For an intermittent condition refer to Intermittent Conditions  

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

@Logan Thanks for the vote of confidence, but you are my GO TO guy :lol:  Thanks for the P0016 diagnostic info!

This below is what concerns me, and it is in line with what I was thinking that there was a possibility that the cam and crank jumped timing either due to a failed guide or tensioner @Dhen7181 & @Otten33

2 hours ago, Logan said:

Diagnostic Aids
    •  Inspect the engine for any recent engine mechanical repairs. An incorrectly installed camshaft, crankshaft, or timing chain can cause this DTC to set

    •  For an intermittent condition refer to Intermittent Conditions  

Now you both have the P0016  and gone the route of checking fuel pressure, spark, Otten33 has repaired the rubber TB plenum, Otten33 has replaced his fuel pump, Dhen7181 has replaced the CAM sensor and Otten33 has ordered a CAM sensor and plans to install it. 

  • Because of Dhen7181 replacing the CAM sensor, I do not feel confident that Otten33 will have success replacing his, but I hope I am wrong.
  • Otten33 still has fuel pressure problems in spite of replacing his fuel filter and fuel pump, that needs looking into
  • Dhen7181 has low compression on the #1 and #2 cylinders.   Dhen7181 were all cylinders checked for compression?  If the timing jumped, given this is an interference engine, valves may have been contacted and bent in other cylinders also not just #1 and #2.   Each bank has a separate chain, in order for problems on both banks, the intermediate chain would need to have jumped (just a thought here) because each chain can jump on its own given the right (or wrong) conditions.  I want you to know that I am ASSUMING that your low compression in #1 and #2 is due to jumped timing at this point, it is hard to know for certain without inspecting it. 

The scary part of the following statement is that the PCM uses the CKP and CMP information to monitor the correlation between the crankshaft and camshaft positions, if it detects a deviation between the CMP target and the CKP, the P0016 will set.....:blink:

2 hours ago, Logan said:

The powertrain control module (PCM) uses the crankshaft position (CKP) sensor and the camshaft position (CMP) sensor information to monitor the correlation between the crankshaft and camshaft positions. If the PCM detects a deviation between the CMP target and the CKP, DTC P0016 will set

I am going to do some research to see if ANYONE has resolved this.   This is a new one on me.   Dhen7181 has an 04 and Otten33 has an 05.   This is when an engine picoscope monitoring CKP and CMP waveform data with a comparison to a normal waveform pattern would be VERY helpful.  The PCM probably has stored failure data but a TECH2 would be needed to access that info.


Pre-1995 - DTC codes OBD1  >>

1996 and newer - DTC codes OBD2 >> https://www.obd-codes.com/trouble_codes/gm/obd_codes.htm

How to check for codes Caddyinfo How To Technical Archive >> http://www.caddyinfo.com/wordpress/cadillac-how-to-faq/

Cadillac History & Specifications Year by Year  http://www.motorera.com/cadillac/index.htm

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Unfortunately that code is not stating that the cam sensor is not working but rather that what it is showing does not match what it should be.

In some cases it can be sensor failure. But typically it should have a code related to it.

Best of luck to both of you. 


GM FAN FOREVER

Nice, clean, luxury= fine automobile

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
9 hours ago, Dhen7181 said:

Before I sent it in it started with a little help from some starter fluid. It ran for about 1 minute with a bad misfire and would only stay running with my foot on the gas until it eventually died out

@Dhen7181  it occurred to me that the bad misfire you experienced may have been caused by trying to start it for a long time and the lifters collapsing.  It takes time for the lifters to get rid of air and pump up after extended periods of cranking you had.  It can take quite a long time for the engine and lifters to stabilize at least until the engine reaches normal operating temp of say 192.   You shouldn't be to concerned with that roughness you described above. 

Who performed the compression test?

Were all cylinders tested?

Was oil put into the cylinders to test compression?

How low was the compression?

Do you have the results?


Pre-1995 - DTC codes OBD1  >>

1996 and newer - DTC codes OBD2 >> https://www.obd-codes.com/trouble_codes/gm/obd_codes.htm

How to check for codes Caddyinfo How To Technical Archive >> http://www.caddyinfo.com/wordpress/cadillac-how-to-faq/

Cadillac History & Specifications Year by Year  http://www.motorera.com/cadillac/index.htm

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Ok, here is another O4 that is having the exact same problem.  Everyone is pulling their hair out, just like us.  I have yet to see a solution arise.   This guy has an intermittent LOUD knocking noise that he was very alarmed by, I can only imagine that it is related to the timing chain(s).   I have been involved with the Northstar for quite a long time, to find this problem suddenly is very odd.  @Otten33  @Dhen7181

http://www.cadillacforums.com/forums/cadillac-deville-1985-2005-including-1985/1036010-2004-dhs-dtc-code-p0016.html


Pre-1995 - DTC codes OBD1  >>

1996 and newer - DTC codes OBD2 >> https://www.obd-codes.com/trouble_codes/gm/obd_codes.htm

How to check for codes Caddyinfo How To Technical Archive >> http://www.caddyinfo.com/wordpress/cadillac-how-to-faq/

Cadillac History & Specifications Year by Year  http://www.motorera.com/cadillac/index.htm

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Create an account or sign in to comment

You need to be a member in order to leave a comment

Create an account

Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!

Register a new account

Sign in

Already have an account? Sign in here.

Sign In Now
Sign in to follow this  

  • Recently Browsing   0 members

    No registered users viewing this page.