02 Eldorado front hub- plastic or metal clip?

[CadVetteStang]

I need to replace my front hubs/ bearings. When looking up replacement parts, I get asked if it has plastic or metal clip. I know that one version is "second design". Does it matter? Are the interchangeable? Is there a production date change over? Some aftermarket brands do not ask iwhat material it is and claims to fit both..... I need more info on this... Thanks in advance.

[Cadillac Jim]

On Rock Auto, they list a number of alternatives for the hub/bearing assembly for the 2002 Eldorado. Timken lists theirs as "2nd Design, Plastic Wire Clip." They list this part only for the 2001-2002 model years. The AC/Delco part next to it is also listed only for the 2001-2002 model years. So, that's your answer, there was a design change for the 2001 model year, and it has a "Plastic Wire Clip."

[rockfangd]

my 2001 had the metal clip. It seems it could work with either to be honest. I have seen cars that had metal on one side and plastic on the other.

I have always used the metal clip one.

The metal one slides over the bracket

the plastic one clips into the bracket with a rectangular hole

[Cadillac Jim]

I just checked RockAuto for the 2001 model year and the Eldorado used both types that year. There is one difference listed: in the First Design, listed for model years 1997-2001, the bearing flange mounting holes are threaded.

[CadVetteStang]

Although my year model on the title is 2002, my production date is 08/01 so I have a very early 2002 car.

[Cadillac Jim]

I would believe that sometime in the 2001 model year that production was moved over, and any 2002 model year car will have the second design. You can be sure by checking by your VIN at the dealer, or through GMPartsDirect or another dealer-based mail-order parts supplier. From RockAuto, the AC/Delco part number for 1997-2001 model years is "2017 {#07470017, 12429204}" and the part number for the 2001-2002 model years is "FW293 {#88964168}".

The spring clip is the wheel speed retainer clip. The first design is "w/Stainless Steel Sensor Wire Spring Clip" while the second design is "w/Plastic Sensor Wire & Clip, OR 20-17".

How about the bearing flange mounting holes? Are they threaded? I'm not sure that these are something just used in production but not on the car. Both the 1997 and 2002 FSM say that the hub mounting bolts are tightened to 95 n-m (70 lb-ft) and neither shows a nut in the drawings, which seem the same. Also, both show the wheel studs as pressed in and out. So, the hub mounting holes are probably threaded but the wheel mounting stud holes are not threaded on both hubs, and the bearing flange mounting holes must not be used on the car.

[CadVetteStang]

Thanks for the information and research. Sounds like the redesign was to make the hub more GM universal in application- making it fit new year models of other cars. As far as I know, there was no change in the knuckle so both should bolt up the same. My worry was with the wire harness as to fit. And my hope was that the second design had a more HD bearing.

[Cadillac Jim]

I think that the Timken or AC/Delco should be enough for moderate track use or autocross, since the car is guaranteed to go 150 mph with the governor removed. Car & Driver clocked an STS at 145 mph when they tested one in about 1995.

If you want to specify the bearing, press the old one out, use a micrometer to get the dimensions, and order your own and press it back in. People do that.

[CadVetteStang]

At this point, I don't need to custom press a bearing, but it might be something to look into when the car gets its final version of an engine. However, i'll likely go thrugh two more sets of bearings by then.

[Logan]

Press apart a hub bearing? Take pictures please.

Can't be done.

[Cadillac Jim]

Logan, are you telling us that a machine shop can't remove a bearing from a 2002 ETC hub?

[rockfangd]

Hmm. I have never tried to. I have seen them come apart when they sere driven dry for too long

[Logan]

You should not have to press a hub bearing to remove it from from the knuckle.

You will not be able to press a hub bearing apart to measure the bearings.

[Cadillac Jim]

Just to make sure that we are understanding each other, the idea is to press the bearing assembly out of the hub, not to disassemble the bearing.

[Logan]

The way I read it was....you were trying to disassemble the actual hub bearing.

[Cadillac Jim]

Actually the idea is to replace the bearing. Cody contemplates autocross, where, for a significant portion of about 15 minutes, the Eldorado will have about 75% of its weight on one front wheel while applying as much power or braking as possible. He wants a tougher-than-stock bearing. Others in the past have wanted a way to repair a bad bearing without replacing the hub and wheel speed sensor, and I have seen mention of changing the bearing in a hub. I have not heard from someone with details of actually doing it.

[rockfangd]

I have done plenty of the other type, the one that the bearing presses into the knuckle and the hub presses into the bearing. They are a PITA here in NY where everything rusts.

Other than that I have not heard of replacing just the bearing on a complete hub assembly. Would be something to look into.

[BodybyFisher]

I read the pressing the same as Logan, Jim. The only thing that might be pressed is the axle out of the hub bearing which can sometimes be frozen (KHE had a lot of trouble once) I have been lucky to have to only use a dead blow hammer to remove the axle. The hub bearing itself is an assembly.

[Cadillac Jim]

The hub and bearing are sold as an assembly, of course. Dealers sell calipers as an assembly, and dealer brake jobs are all-new parts, because GM as an organization is too far removed from the tech and parts re builders to guarantee rebuilt parts. I got a lifetime guarantee on the compressor on the ETC, for example, and the clutch needed adjustment the next year. Adjust the clutch, or replace or rebuild the clutch? No, Freon reclamation and a new compressor, parts and labor free.

But that doesn't mean that assembles can't be rebuilt and used as successfully as new assemblies, as you know. The hub is made up of three parts, the hub which is machined to spec, the bearing which is pressed into it, and the wheel speed sensor. In the last century, wheel bearings were separate parts in the world beyond dealer service, but I found that Northstar front wheel bearing repair was always by wheel-hub-sensor assembly replacement. And, the bearing is not available or listed anywhere separately, so far as I know. There have been a few threads in the past on replacing bearings in hubs. I haven't heard back from anyone that has completed such a thing.

I think that the reality facing someone doing a repair is that the cost of doing a repair, and the risk in picking a bearing without a purpose-designated part for that repair, along with getting a new wheel speed sensor in the bargain, means that most people just go with the assembly replacement.

Cody is a special case because he has a 2002 ETC race-prepared with a custom suspension, and he was hoping for a tougher-than-stock front wheel bearing.

[CadVetteStang]

This has been a very informative discussion; I'm sorry I've been missing out. My two job schedule has been non stop and I've been busy online during my breaks promoting my candidate of choice for Super Tuesday.

I'm not on a rushed deadline to do the repair so I will try to find research time. I want to see if either early or late design interchanges with a car that had a heavy duty suspension option, like maybe an Impala; then check to see if the police/ taxi trim level has a different bearing, but shares the same spindle as the base model. If so, then that should be enough of an upgrade. However, if a police interceptor uses the same bearing as the base model, then it would be at least some indication that the stock bearing is adequate for occasional track use..

I'll be upgrading the front brakes this summer to C5 Corvette calipers and 14" Shelby GT500 rotors by using a spacer bracket. I'll also fabricate cooling ducts and check to see if I can use them to cool the hub assembly as well.... The stock 12" brakes with single piston calipers are great for stopping fast one time and then driving until they cool off, but they fade quickly due to heat in autocross-like conditions and I don't like that much heat in direct contact with the hub surface. .. I have parked after playing with sports cars on curvy roads and witnessed smoke coming off of the brakes (when the pads were new). That heat dissipates somewhere.

[Logan]

Just FYI....there are heavy duty limo / livery drivetrain parts for the 2000 and newer Deville models. Axles...bearings...brakes etc

[Cadillac Jim]

The front control arm and ball joint are apparently different in the commercial chassis, in the 1997 FSM. The drawing for the control arm shows it as having webbing and a straight link between the frame and the ball joint mount, and a replaceable camber arm bushing. It may not be the same length, though. The section on the front suspension for the commercial chassis includes only sections on the ball joint and the lower control arm assembly; the hub and strut are not mentioned. They may be different parts, but the procedures for working on them are the same.

The commecial chassis rear suspension section of the FSM has sections on the knuckle, hub and bearing, shock, ball joint, and upper and lower control arms and spring. The drawings of the control arms look the same. It doesn't mean that the parts are different.

The rear brakes of the commercial chassis are drum brakes. This is probably because the commercial chassis is basically a truck chassis with a lot of weight on the rear, and the front/rear balance of the sedan/coupe rear brakes isn't compatible with what's necessary for a hearse or stretch limousine.

One thing that will be different and will mount on your car are the stabilizer bars.

That's all for pre-2000 models. I will check the 2002 FSM on the SI DVD and get back to you.

[Logan]

Lots of HD parts.... RPO option codes....think I looked up 2002 Deville.

Brakes J55 heavy duty.

Suspension FE7 heavy duty.

Wheels are 8 lug....so hubs are also 8 lug.

The livery heavy duty setup is still FWD. Not to be confused with something like the presidential limo....which is a one-off custom build on a GM truck full frame.

Pic shows 8 lug heavy duty Cadillac DTS wheel.

[CadVetteStang]

Thanks for the research. I know that the limo front hubs are not compatible due to having a 6 lug pattern. I've already got my 18 X 8.5" winter wheels and have found affordable 18 X 10.5" racing/show/summer wheels.

If possible, let's post all of this good suspension research in my autocross suspension thread so it can be easily found and referenced later.

My fault for diverting into the brakes discussion.

If I remember correctly, the link to my build is in my signature.

We are now close enough to build time that we can actively go into the front suspension topic.

Thanks again.

[Cadillac Jim]

The commercial chassis option FE7 is available on the Deville but not on the Seville/Eldorado, so, as Logan says, you look for Deveille FE7 documentation and parts.

The 2002 FSM has separate sections on just about everything for FE7. The separate sections are

• Stabilizer Shaft Replacement
• Stabilizer Shaft Link Replacement
• Stabilizer Shaft Insuator Replacement
• Lower Control Arm Ball Joint Replacement
• Front Wheel Bearing and Hub Replacement
• Steering Knuckle Replacement
• Lower Control Arm Replacement
• Strut Assembly Removal and Installation

Sections that are the same are Wheel Stud Replacement, Suspension Strut Disposal, and Strut, Strut Component, or Spring Replacement (off-car).

The length of the lower control arm looks longer than the FE1/FE3 control arms. The ball joint is entirely different, as is the knuckle. This may mean that the FE7 lower control arm may not go onto the FE3 knuckle. In the FE3, the ball joint is mounted in the control arm with a stud that bolts into the knuckle. In the FE7, the ball joint mounts in the knuckle and has a stud that bolts into the control arm.