Help buying a 76 eldorado conv.

[texasmade830]

The guy is asking 8,000 and I really love this car, I just want to make sure im not overpaying. What is a car like this worth?

[Cadillac Jim]

A car like that is worth what the buyer wants to pay for it. It looks largely original from the photos, other than the hub caps. Original hub caps will be difficult or impossible to obtain for a 37-year-old car, particularly in the condition that you would want for a pristine car. They made 14,000 of these in the 1976 model year so it's not a rare make or model, although any 1976 car in pristine condition is, of course, rare. Ask if this one is one of the 200 "Bicentennial Cadillac" special models made at the end of production. If so, it will be a rare car and will be worth more - but you will want the original wheel covers, which were special for that model, and you might be well advised to show the car and not put a lot of miles on it. You might ask about the original wheel covers; in 1976 the Eldorado is the only model that did NOT offer wire wheel covers. On the "Bicentennial Cadillac" the white upholstery had red piping which I don't see in the photo but the upholstery may well have been replaced by now.

My experience with convertible tops is that you need a new one every two to four years, depending on how much exposure the top gets to the hot sun. A garage or parking indoors can make a top last longer. This top seems less than a year old. Note that the rear window is not visible in these photos. Ask to look at it. Custom convertible tops are the rule rather than the exception so getting replacements should not be a problem if you park the car outside a lot.

Here is a good history page on the 1976 Cadillac Eldorado.

http://www.motorera....1970/CAD76E.HTM

Note the option list. The most important one is the fuel injected engine; pop the hood and see if it has a carburetor or not. You will have a lot less trouble and better fuel economy with the fuel injection than with an old four-barrel Rochester. This car has a 37.5 gallon gas tank and a 190 hp (carburetor) or 210 hp (fuel injection) engine that burns regular gas, but probably gets around 12 mpg around town and a little better on the highway, so be prepared for that when you drive it any distance.

The VIN is a 13-digit (not the standard 17-digit VIN that's been in use internationally for years now). It will be of the form 6L67S6Qznnnnn, where z=1,2,3,4. If it deviates from this, then the car was not built as a 1976 Cadillac Eldorado Convertible. In any case, contact CarFAX and other sources to try to get a history for the car. I have had some luck dong a web search on a VIN number and suggest that you do that regardless of luck with CarFAX and similar agencies.

The engine number is on the block behind the left cylinder head. There is a nine-digit VIN derivative on the block behind the intake manifold. There is a body ID plate under the hood on the shroud near the cowl that has the style number, trim number, body number, paint number, and date of assembly (month 01 through 12, week A through E) followed by the option codes.

Keep us posted and please give us more pictures!

[BodybyFisher]

I love this car, and to me, it IS worth $8000, no question, I had a 74 Eldorado Conv, it is conspicous to the MAX, it always screamed, I HAVE ARRIVED!

However, while its is personal preference, the only thing I would do is change are the wheels, those are a bit TOO conspicuous

[CoupeDTS]

the 1st picture it had blades, the other pictures it has "swangaz" which by themselves are a rediculous 2 grand or more. Otherwise looks clean. I see tons of mid 70s eldo convertibles for sale, some nice some not. Not sure if theres a reason theres so many for sale. For 8 grand it better run good.

[texasmade830]

[BodybyFisher]

I think its because they get terrible gas mileage, the really dont fit an an average garage and they are ridiculouly huge. Parking it is no picnic. They are terrific to look at, but when you actually have one you are shocked at how big it really is, and at the looks you get when you drive it especially with the top down. I am no environmental kook but this car is the opposite of GREEN

I still remember jacking up the driver side front wheel and having the CRACK at the driver side door CLOSE, the chassis is very flexible.

As a summer cruzer with the top down to go to the ice cream store or out to a nice restaurant with family or friends, this is a great car, as a daily driver I hope you have an oil rig in the back yard, I recall it getting 8 miles to the gallon at times

[Cadillac Jim]

The world champion for gas mileage in mass-produced, generally available cars goes to the Ford Expedition at 3-4 mpg actual in short trips around town with engine not fully warmed up for most of the driving. If anyone can beat that, please post here.

I had a 1959 Chevrolet with that "jet-smooth ride" which was achieved in part with a flexible X-frame. In the seven years that I had that car, I never got better than "acceptable" handling out of it. It had a lot of other good things going for it, but handling was not its forte.

Ever since Detroit got aholt of supercomputers and finite element simulations of car chassis movements, executives have passed down requirements to engineers that achieve "what if" simulations that reveal the limits of designs to achieve the best ride, best handling, etc. and give the engineers better handling on tradeoffs and how to achieve the best of both worlds with any degree of emphasis on any one attribute. With the supercomputers providing "testing" of paper designs, the first car built can be the result of several generations of designs, and quite sophisticated and highly developed. The modern car buyer expects that, even - perhaps especially - in new models. When that attribute is ride and that requirement supersedes all else, this design and development process can give you a design with a very flexible chassis - and ride smoothness on *any* road that you wouldn't believe.

[Cadillac Jim]

I found this image of a swangas wheel:

That ersatz knock-off spinner apparently screws onto the casting, and may even be cast-in. It sticks out quite a ways, perhaps as a "curb feeler" or even a rural weed-cutter for keeping the road shoulders clear of overgrowth and pedestrians.

The swangas term was originally applied to optional wire wheels for 1983 and 1984 Cadillacs. Some years later, aftermarket vendors started selling similar-looking cast and wire wheels. They still appear mostly on Cadillacs but are available for just about any car - or SUV - or truck, in black and colors as well as chrome. What we see here is a hyperbole of the 1984 Cadillac look.

Apparently the center of swingas aficionados is Houston, Texas. They are considered so attractive by some that they can be "crime magnets" in the wrong part of town in some cities; news article from 2010 post on the KTRK-TV (Houston) web site:

http://abclocal.go.c...ocal&id=7699639

[Cadillac Jim]

My advice for texasmade830 is, if you know what the car is and what it is like to own and drive one, and if you are knowledgeable about maintenance and upkeep of these cars, and if the money to buy it is available pain-free, and you have a place to park it, find out what you can about it's history from registration and title data and perhaps an agency such as CarFAX.

A key question that I ask myself when I'm attracted to anything out of the ordinary is, what are my plans for it? What will I be doing with it a year from now? If I don't know, I do need to figure that out before I get serious about committing myself.

This is a great parade car, perhaps a great show car for vintage automobiles, and clearly a magnificent car for rural drives with the top down, or perhaps as a all-around weekend car. I can't see commuting on IH405 in L.A. traffic in it as something I would want to do every day.

Be warned, if you do buy it, we know who you are - and, we will want pictures, and you will get encouragement to have your car blog on Caddyinfo. Free help and advice with your car is available here on Caddyinfo by people who have owned that or similar cars, and perhaps a few that still do; that's not something you find anywhere for just any marque. We will all think of you as a friend if you buy that car and post here once in a while.

[Texas Jim]

I had a '78 ElDorado for a few years, but mine was the Biarritz hard top with a sunroof.

I used it mostly for Saturday night cruising and parades.

[hjb981]

I cannot offer much help on whether the price is reasonable or not, but I still wanted to chime in say hi because I really like those big ol' Eldos. If I got to a point where I could have a second car just for fun, a big Eldorado is what I would like to have Good luck with your decision!

[KHE]

The guy is asking 8,000 and I really love this car, I just want to make sure im not overpaying. What is a car like this worth?

The car looks to be in very nice condition but those wheels are absolutely hideous.... They really detract from the value of the car as they are not original equipment.

I think its because they get terrible gas mileage, the really dont fit an an average garage and they are ridiculouly huge. Parking it is no picnic. They are terrific to look at, but when you actually have one you are shocked at how big it really is, and at the looks you get when you drive it especially with the top down. I am no environmental kook but this car is the opposite of GREEN

I've found that the size of the car is all what you get used to. If you're used to driving small cars, a large one will seem awkward/difficult to park, etc.

The '76 Eldorado is 224.1" long. The '93-'96 Fleetwood Broughams are 225" long and I have no problem parking my Brougham.

[BodybyFisher]

I agree Kevin, I was able to park it with ease also, but it is huge,

[Cadillac Jim]

When I was a kid I learned to parallel park a Chevrolet or Dodge pickup - with a boat on a trailer hooked onto it. I would love to have a 500 cid Eldorado convertible as a weekend car.

I'm retired and don't drive that much; occasionally I need to put my baby on a trickle charger because I haven't driven it enough to keep the battery at full charge. So, the price of gas isn't a big deal with me like it was when I was putting 15,000 miles a year on my daily driver. A weekend car will accumulate even less miles, unless I use it for road trips - and I think that I would rather take the Northstar Eldorado than a convertible on long Interstate drives, although that presumed preference would bear a little examination pending experience with the 500 cid convertible.

I don't have a place to park this car at home (garaged!!!) or this thread would get my juices flowing. If I was rich and had a clean, tight barn with a concrete floor on my property, I would be a car collector and would drive every one of them. If I did have a place to park it inside and put a battery maintainer on it, I would buy it in a heartbeat.

As far as $8K being the right price, well... I looked on Auto Traders Classics and did a search on Eldorados from the 1970 through 1976 model years (these were the years that they used the 500 cid engine) and found asking prices from $6,900 to (gasp) $30K. I suspect that if you offered the dealer asking $30K your $8K cash it would be replaced by a signed title and a set of keys before you could snatch it back. All of these seem to be dealers, not individuals, which means that they get higher prices because they can guarantee the cars to some extent, whereas an individual really can't. Most or all of them are convertibles. All of them seem to be in excellent condition, and all of them seem to have the original wheels, and most have the original wheel covers painted to match the body. The $6.9K offering:

http://www.autotrade...sationId=157088

This tells me that the $8K is a little high, unless it includes the swangas, which you would want to sell, particularly before you parked the car or even stopped at a light in the wrong place at the wrong time. And, you would want the original wheels, or a source to get some yourself and an idea of how much they cost.

If you decide to go with a different Eldorado convertible, you might consider one of the earlier ones that had a bit more horsepower and possibly better fuel economy. By year, the ratings, with carburetor/fuel injection type, are:

1970: 400 hp, Rochester 4MV Eldorado (part no. 7047030; specify Eldorado type)

1971: 400 hp, Rochester 4MV Eldorado (part no. 7041766; specify Eldorado type) (non-Eldorado 500 cid were 365 hp)

1972: 365 hp, Rochester 4MV Eldorado (part no. 7047232; specify Eldorado type) (non-Eldorado 500 cid were 235 hp)

1973: 365 hp, Rochester 4MV Eldorado (part no. 7047332; specify Eldorado type) (non-Eldorado 500 cid were 235 hp)

1974: 365 hp, Rochester 4MV Eldorado (part no. 7044235/532; specify Eldorado type) (non-Eldorado 500 cid were 210 hp)

1975: 365 hp, Rochester M4ME (part no. 7044530) (non-Eldorado 500 cid were 210 hp)

1976: 190 hp, Rochester M4ME Eldorado (part no. 7056530)

1976, fuel injection option: 215 hp

So, it would seem, the 1970-1971 models are marginally the best performing and possibly the best fuel economy, with the 1972-1975 close behind. The 1976 offers a drastic reduction in hp rating, probably due to the change in the way that horsepower was rated, which happened industry-wide about that time due to USA legislation. Relieving cat and muffler back-pressure with modern cats and mufflers would probably make the 1976 more than a match for the older models. A 1976 fuel injection model with a low-restriction cat, stainless steel Borla turbo mufflers, and a cold-air intake would probably beat all of them for both fuel economy and performance, and the engine would be better off too, if you were careful about whose air cleaner element you used.

The main thing about the 1976 model year is that it was the last year that Cadillac offered an Eldorado convertible, until the 1983 model year.

My favorite performance video of a 500 cid Cadillac is of a 1970's Coupe DeVille, posted on Caddyinfo in 2006:

http://caddyinfo.ipb...131

It seems to me, from the video, that this one is in the neighborhood of 1,000 hp.

[texasmade830]

I've owned a 76 Eldo conv. Before and I loved the power and speed it had for such a big car and yet the ride was smooth. I ended up selling it a few years back to use the money to do upgrades on my house and ever since then I been wanting another. Ill wait to see if he goes lower if not oh well. Its not something I need its more of a want. I own a 85 Eldon conv so ill stick to that for now

[Cadillac Jim]

I've done some more reading. The 1970 models have 10:1 compression ratio, 1971 models have 10.5:1 compression while later models have 8.5:1 compression. The fuel injection offered as an option in 1976 is throttle body injection.

It seems to me that the "hot" daily driver set-up would be a 1976 model with fuel injection, using 1971 heads and cam, with the original parts kept in storage for possible use if like-factory restoration is an option for the future or for sale with the car someday. This may need some tuning of the DFI, such as a larger injector, but I think the standard 1976 injector is probably OK, and DFI is self-tuning within limits.

The SAE net hp ratings took effect for the 1973 model year. I'm not sure that the hp figures for the 1973-1975 Eldorado that I posted above account for this. In any case, the 210 hp net given for the 1976 Eldorado with fuel injection corresponds to about 320 hp gross, for comparison purposes.

[KHE]

Jim,

I think the compression numbers for '70 and '71 are interchanged. The compression was lowered each year starting with 1971. The 1976 500 engine was only rated at 190 HP but I think it was rated at an RPM below the point which the peak HP was achieved.

If I had a car with the 500 engine in it, if it needed any internal engine work, I would install 1970 heads and cam for a 1970 500 engine. That would really wake it up and it would probably get better gas mileage to boot.

[Cadillac Jim]

KHE - I wouldn't doubt it in the least, or even that both 1970 and 1971 were 10:5:1. I'm getting my information from the Cadillac History page and haven't referred to my old Chilton manuals - which have been known to have a misprint or even incorrect information occasionally, too, particularly with models that were just out or not quite out when a particular manual went to press.

I agree with your solution. Since we are dealing with old cars, and the source of the heads would likely be a recycling yard, why not take the whole 1970 engine and just use that with the DFI from the 1976? Unless you are already pulling down one engine or the other for valve train problems, it may be simpler to just use the whole engine from the 1970 model year Eldorado. Parts storage is significantly more difficult, though, should you want to do that.

I did buy a high-mileage Chevrolet 427 cid in a station wagon to tow a trailer once, and I had to put in new cam and lifters to fix a dead cylinder; one lifter had a hole worn in the bottom. Years later, I got a bent pushrod, which was traceable to wear in the rocker arm at the pushrod hole that eventually had the pushrod fulcrum contacting the pushrod; you could see rings around all of the pushrods where that was starting to happen. I understand that all-new valve train for old high-mileage rat bowties was not an uncommon maintenance issue. It had signs of too-long oil change intervals, too, another thing that is known to cause high valve train wear on old rat bowties. That probably was a problem until they went to roller lifters. I don't think that this was a problem for the Cadillac motors because they used less pressure on the valve springs and less lift, and probably larger lifters and quite possibly better oiling; Cadillac just used bigger valves and got all they needed below 4,500 rpm.

I found a mention in the Cadillac History page for 1975 that seems to indicate that DFI was offered first in 1975. If so, it may be rare to nonexistent in the 1975 model year but I have no way of knowing myself. Anyone?

[KevinW]

DEFI (Digital Electronic Fuel Injection) was first offered in the 1980 model year on 368-equipped E/K models (Eldorados and Sevilles) as a TBI system. The earlier EFI system, standard on 1976 Sevilles and optional on some others, is a batch-fire, port injection system; it was controlled by an analogue computer (Engine Control Unit).

[Cadillac Drac]

With much respect given to all those who have already posted (long time reader, 1st time member\responder), I can not help much with the value of the 76' Eldog but I can comment on the wheels. I am very surprised no one yet knows the real value of these wheels. They are actually called True Spokes with knock-off spinners. The knock-off spinners are connected with a bolt in the middle of the spinner itself going through to the inside of the outer crome wheel hub and a glavenized cone shapped retainer clip fits inside the outer hub and secured with a nut. The tires of course are Vogue custom made tyers not tires. True spokes were the ulitmate wheels\rims to get (in certain hoods) from 1972-ish-1986-ish or so.

The reason they stick out so much is not to clear the roadway of people and small animals (that was funny!), the reason they stick out is so far is because this is a front wheel drive and the hubs prevent normal wheels from mounting on this model. They were an extra premium price back in the day. Many people had normal true spokes including myself, but when you seen a Eldorado or Tornado with true spokes you know they dropped bank to get those, and they were rare back then.

On the Caddy it's self, it is in very good condition and the wheels are fantasic! To car restore buffs these are down grades, to those that know what they are, they are a goal mine. Either way, you already know what kind of ride the big body Eldogs give because you say you had a 74. The desison comes down to are you willing to trade the lack of gas economy (these were not made for that) for the smooth ride & the many heads that will be turning your way everytime you get behind the wheel? If you like the wheels keep them, if you don't someone will buy them for good money!

[Cadillac Jim]

Drac - are the True Spokes the same as the "swangas" that were mentioned? The photos of the cars seemed to be a match to the close-up that I found of a "swangas" wheel in post no. 8 in this thread. As best I can tell, True Spokes were OEM wheels, a rare option made by Cragar for Cadillac, and the "swangas" are replicas of the look that are available new. The "swangas" look like the spokes are thick and cast, not tensile steel wire and adjustable. Actual True Spokes wheels in really good condition are very rare these days, apparently.

The mounting bolts for the "swangas" are visible in the photo on my post no. 8 and seem to be just discernible in one photo in the original post of the car in the first post.

If this 1976 Eldorado is indeed sold with True Spokes OEM Cadillac wheels, then that is indeed a horse of an entirely different color.

[Cadillac Drac]

Jim_97_ETC, "swangas" are the new name for the same wheel called True Spokes, or Trues back in the day. They came in 30, 50, 60, and 100 spoke-also called sun spokes back then, (I can't remember but they may have had a 45 spoke as well). The manufacture is not Cragar (though they may have had a line), and not OEM. Truespoke is the name of the manufacture see: http://www.truespoke.net/Truespokesizes.html What you have pictured in post # 8 are 30 spokes in VERY good condition! As far as I know these are aftermarket wheels and not apart of an OEM Cadillac. What I have noticed by working at a Cadillac dealer from 82'-84' is that sometimes certain cars where picked out to be upgraded or special ordered with Vogue Tyers, after market grill, and gold emblems refer to in the streets as "a touch of gold". One more thing, learning from trail and error, with these big wheels and the torque put on the studs from the weight of the car + the heavy engine tends to break the studs off if the lug nuts are not long enough to reach the brake drums FYI. Hope this helps.