Not the wheel hub, what now?

[Jan Olsson]

I have this whine (sounds like gear whine or if I had terrain tires) which all of a sudden came from nowhere. From what I gathered it seemed like the left driver side wheel hub. I thought the sound came from the left front end anyway. Today I changed the hub (which had some play in it and rattles if I shake it..) and test drove and it is still there, perhaps even worser than before.

When rotating the drivers side wheel hub with a socket-wrench attached to the center nut I can feel small "thuds", about 15-16/revolution. The only sound I can hear is from under the automatic transmission.

Since I had both the wheels in the air doing the turning of the wheel flange I was thinking that only the final drive internals are rotating (gear in park)except from the final drive gears and that all the rotating stuff in the final drive except from the gear are at rest when driving in a straight line.

Am I missing something i.e. is the final drive not like in other cars? If it is like any differential in any car then the sound only can come from the driver side half-shaft.

I'm going to remove the half-shaft tomorrow and try spinning the passenger side wheel and see if the sound goes away or if it's still there. (that is if the differential is an "ordinary" one)

The "amusing" part of the story is that I ordered the parts from the local parts supplier here in Sweden, I also had to buy a 33 mm extra long socket and an 3/4" to 1/2" adapter.

Expensive stuff....about 600$ in parts... The reason was that I was hoping to have this fixed as fast as possible because we don't have another car to drive in the mean while and I was afraid that the customs would sit on the parts too long or/and that the delivery of the parts would take to long or get lost. I normally buy from Rock-Auto but when it's an emergency I usually order from Sweden...bah

At least the wheel hub is alright now...

So the main question is if a half-shaft can make the "thuds" (about 15-16 times per revolution) that I'm feeling when rotating the hub-flange? I thought it was odd since there are not that many balls in the CV-joint or is the final drive constructed different from a rear wheel drive final drive?

[growe3]

A whine? It may be the transmission pump. If so it will sound like a power steering pump that is low on fluid (cavitation), but much louder.

Usually really noticeable in 1st and 2nd gear, then reducing somewhat in third, mostly going away in 4th. While I am not sure of the cure, I

believe that fluid starvation is the problem. A loose pickup tube, partially plugged transmission cooler, or other transmission internal leak.

PS

That is one expensive socket, should have been about $50 USD, adapters $5 USD or so.

-George

[Jan Olsson]

A whine? It may be the transmission pump. If so it will sound like a power steering pump that is low on fluid (cavitation), but much louder.

Usually really noticeable in 1st and 2nd gear, then reducing somewhat in third, mostly going away in 4th. While I am not sure of the cure, I

believe that fluid starvation is the problem. A loose pickup tube, partially plugged transmission cooler, or other transmission internal leak.

PS

That is one expensive socket, should have been about $50 USD, adapters $5 USD or so.

-George

Tools AND hub for 600$. I'm not THAT thick

Well unfortunately I'm ruling out the pump. It is a whine but it starts as small "thuds". When speed increases it makes a whine instead of thud pulsations..sorry to be unclear in my previous explanation. It sounds mechanical. I think it's either the half-shaft or the final drive. They are the only things that can make a sound originating from the front that changes with speed. A half shaft would make clicks in turns...strange. Perhaps the halft-shaft/transmission bearing?

[Cadillac Jim]

CV joint? Check the boots. If they're not tight, it's just a matter of time before the bearings go.

[Jan Olsson]

At this point I'm trying hard to compare the before and after me changing hub-assembly.. Before I could only hear the sound above 40 km/h...but now I can hear it from a dead stop. I'm thinking about the half-shaft..that's the only thing that has been disturbed by me when changing hub...well at least there are a lot of pretty girls on the bus

[Caddynut]

sounds EXACTLY like my wifes Mitsubishi Eclipse. That same whine appeared overnight and sounds like it gets "faster" with speed whether it is in neutral or drive going down the road. I have replaced both axle shafts and wheel bearings and the whine STILL there. It has done that for 2 years and about 5000 miles of driving. I finally gave up trying to figure it out. when it goes...it goes. Let me know what you find out and maybe I can figure it out too.

[MAC]

Did you check the transaxle fluid to see if it may be transmission related. Does the whirling sound dissipate as you drive for a while and engine is at normal operating temp? Or does it continue whether the engine is cold or hot?

[Jan Olsson]

Did you check the transaxle fluid to see if it may be transmission related. Does the whirling sound dissipate as you drive for a while and engine is at normal operating temp? Or does it continue whether the engine is cold or hot?

Fluid is ok, no difference if the tranny is cold or hot. The sound follows vehicle speed. All this makes me think half-shafts or bearing at tranny. I can feel it in the steering wheel too (after changing the hub)

I'll play around with wifeys Jeep tomorrow so that I can take the STS apart again later without using my garage space when waiting for parts...Really strange..no clicks but I have had problems with unbalance. Perhaps the half-shaft is the culprit after all?

I've catched a cold and after spending a daily total of 3 hours un the bus (with car it only takes 1 hour...) I just can't get myself to work on the STS in 30F outside temperature..bah problems never happends in summer time

[BodybyFisher]

Can you get the front of the car up and have someone turn the wheel while you carefully put your hand on the axle to see if you can feel if its coming from that location?

[Jan Olsson]

Can you get the front of the car up and have someone turn the wheel while you carefully put your hand on the axle to see if you can feel if its coming from that location?

Good idea!

I've just finished with wifeys Jeep. Hm I'm giving up on that one. To many things that don't work and after trying to bleed the brake system I realize that it's perhaps only the master cylinder that needs some work...or the ABS unit..Jeep was first with solving ABS on a 4 wheel drive car. This system was abandoned after 2 years..wonder why

Everyone at the Jeep forums advices me to tear out the ABS and convert the brake system to a conventional with vacuum booster instead of the hydraulic units since it's troublesome and very expensive to fix..don't feel like that. The best part is that the car has started to smoke at 100 F...propably just the valve cover gasket..but water and oil dissappears without beeing seen anywhere so I'm thinking of a head gasket..since it also runs like crap...

I figure that after all the work included to get it back on the road (and for that matter the parts) it's not worth it since I neither have the time or space to do that properly...

The STS on the other hand is a car that always is worth a fix

I really been scratching my head about this one but I figure that since the sound follows vehicle speed it must be related to something connected to the wheels, driveshafts or the final drive.

I can hear the sound regardless of steering wheel input (left, right, forward), I also can feel small "thuds" in steering wheel too.

Im convinced that the sound originates from the left side of the vehicle..final drive is on the right side, wheel hub has been changed so I guess the left half shaft is causing the problem.

Really weird sound..

[BodybyFisher]

Just a thought, but check your rotor for cracks, check your calipers for tightness, now, I know that you would feel this in your brake pedal but just have a look.

If you changed the hub bearing, there is little else on the left side that could cause that. I will post a photo of the left side, that is where the chain and sprokets are. Its is possible that your INNER joint or outer joint is flopping around. If you have difficulty getting one, I will ship one to you let me know.

[Jan Olsson]

I appreciate that Sc..sorry Body!

I'm going to wash, clean and wax the car for the winter this weekend. But after that I'm planning to remove the drivers side half-shaft if I don't find anything else ,while working on the car, that seems more likely.

Hm, you're suggesting the chain and sprocket between engine and tranny?

I have checked the prices for a half-shaft...wow.. Does anyone have good experiences from a remanufactured one? I was thinking Rock-Auto. A little bit less expensive..

[BodybyFisher]

I appreciate that Sc..sorry Body!

I'm going to wash, clean and wax the car for the winter this weekend. But after that I'm planning to remove the drivers side half-shaft if I don't find anything else ,while working on the car, that seems more likely.

Hm, you're suggesting the chain and sprocket between engine and tranny?

I have checked the prices for a half-shaft...wow.. Does anyone have good experiences from a remanufactured one? I was thinking Rock-Auto. A little bit less expensive..

I don't think its internal to the tranny yet until you determine its not the axle or CV joints. I am not following you fully, were the prices at Rock Auto high? Did Rock Auto have reman units?

[jlinde]

I would do an extra check by taking down the 4t80 oil pan and take a look in that -be careful and

move it down slowly so that possible debris remain in place. If you have not already done this -it will

cost you some autooil though. Before buying unnecessary not faulty parts. The automatic trans will

maybe only have very little debris below the parking pawl. My extra 170000 mile 4T80 only had that.

I do not remember if you can see anything around the pinion gears and end planetary gear set but

you can hopefully exclude that from being the reason when you rotate the wheels.

I think that you can get the planetary gears to rotate by turning both wheels in same direction- not in park....Just another approach.

/Jan L

[Jan Olsson]

I appreciate that Sc..sorry Body!

I'm going to wash, clean and wax the car for the winter this weekend. But after that I'm planning to remove the drivers side half-shaft if I don't find anything else ,while working on the car, that seems more likely.

Hm, you're suggesting the chain and sprocket between engine and tranny?

I have checked the prices for a half-shaft...wow.. Does anyone have good experiences from a remanufactured one? I was thinking Rock-Auto. A little bit less expensive..

I don't think its internal to the tranny yet until you determine its not the axle or CV joints. I am not following you fully, were the prices at Rock Auto high? Did Rock Auto have reman units?

Sorry. I meant that Rock-Auto sold remanufactured units for a very fair price. But I also saw the price for a OEM half-shaft at http://www.cadillac-parts-dealer.com/...expensive..

[Jan Olsson]

I would do an extra check by taking down the 4t80 oil pan and take a look in that -be careful and

move it down slowly so that possible debris remain in place. If you have not already done this -it will

cost you some autooil though. Before buying unnecessary not faulty parts. The automatic trans will

maybe only have very little debris below the parking pawl. My extra 170000 mile 4T80 only had that.

I do not remember if you can see anything around the pinion gears and end planetary gear set but

you can hopefully exclude that from being the reason when you rotate the wheels.

I think that you can get the planetary gears to rotate by turning both wheels in same direction- not in park....Just another approach.

/Jan L

Yes. that crossed my mind too. My darling wife will assist me in doing the wheel-turning. In that way I can rule out ordinary sounds originating from the final drive internals. But the final drive is on the right side right? I'm thinking that everything there is alright..well time will tell and when the next salary arrives I'll know what to order hopefully

[Jan Olsson]

Just a thought, but check your rotor for cracks, check your calipers for tightness, now, I know that you would feel this in your brake pedal but just have a look.

If you changed the hub bearing, there is little else on the left side that could cause that. I will post a photo of the left side, that is where the chain and sprokets are. Its is possible that your INNER joint or outer joint is flopping around. If you have difficulty getting one, I will ship one to you let me know.

New rotors and pads. Caliphers running smooth.

It must be the drivers side half-shaft..only thing left to the left..hm sorry

[Jan Olsson]

An update on the progress.

I did finally recieve the halft-shaft from Rock-Auto and finally got the time to do the work. After reading up on CV-chafts I realized that only OEM ones was to prefer, but since I had it I thought that it still at least could be useful for me as a temporary repair.. The good thing is that changing the half-shaft didn't do anything at all so I can use my old one when the Rock-Auto boot splits...

Soo...not the wheel hub and not the CV-chaft.

It seems that it's time to drop the tranny oil pan and take a closer look. Perhaps it's the parking prawl?

_

[BodybyFisher]

Ok I re-read your first post you are calling it a gear whine.

This is different than a hydralic whine, its not a hydralic whine is it?

There are two thrust bearings one each on the chain sprockets, if the fluid gets low, I believe its possible for these bearings to overheat, mine were blue from heat and I should have replaced them. I will post a photo of them or their location when I get a chance. Maybe you are having a problem with them, they are under the side pan behind the side cover.

Does the whine change when you rev the engine?

Does it happen in Park and Neutral? or only when the car moves?

How does your tranny respond when you shift from Drive to Reverse, is the shift quick or is there a delay?

[Jan Olsson]

Ok I re-read your first post you are calling it a gear whine.

This is different than a hydralic whine, its not a hydralic whine is it?

There are two thrust bearings one each on the chain sprockets, if the fluid gets low, I believe its possible for these bearings to overheat, mine were blue from heat and I should have replaced them. I will post a photo of them or their location when I get a chance. Maybe you are having a problem with them, they are under the side pan behind the side cover.

Does the whine change when you rev the engine?

Does it happen in Park and Neutral? or only when the car moves?

How does your tranny respond when you shift from Drive to Reverse, is the shift quick or is there a delay?

It's definitely a clicking/knocking type of sound, a low pitched sound that changes to a whine when going faster. I can swear that it can be heard of from the left of the car, now wifey says to the right..hmm

I'll try with spinning the wheels in the air with engine on, perhaps I can hear something different than the final drive sounds (which should be expected)

If I'm lucky it's a wheel hub or CV-shaft on the right side, atleast I have the parts now

[Jan Olsson]

Yes!! I finally found it! It was the right wheel hub all the time...it's all right you can laugh now..

My wife always tells my how stubborn I am...I can swear that the noise I had originated from the left side of the car. I was so confident that I didn't even bother to spin the wheels with the engine.

A brief summary:

Heard this "deck-card shuffling", clicking, and propeller sounding noise all of a sudden after running over a small cable-channel by a road construction site. I raised the car and felt a large play in the driver side wheel-hub and ordered a new one from the Swedish main parts supplier in order to get the car back on the road as fast as possible (with twice the price compared to a AC-Delco hub from Rock-Auto). WTF! That didn't do the trick and with a bill that hefty I decided to wait for my next salary (don't believe in being in debt if it isn't necessary).

Ok then I had plenty of time to find the sound right? The s-curve test didn't point at the wheel bearings at all. To be honest it didn't even sound like one at all. Still I was convinced that the sound originated from the left side and decided to order a remanufactured half-shaft since it was the only thing left (apart from the thrust bearing in the tranny) that rotated with wheel-speed and was located to the left. Now it was late November and I was rather tired having to take the bus and spend 3 hours/day for a 1-hour drive. Well the half-shaft arrived and voila! No..that didn't fix anything.

At that point I was rather frustrated and took the car for a spin, this time with my wife in the passenger seat and the first thing she says is "It's coming from the right"

I should really have known better than to trust my ears inside of a car. This wasn't the first time I did that stupid mistake but I thought that I've been smarter with age...no.

After reading Logan’s excellent post about remanufactured half-shafts I came to the conclusion that I had better put the old one back and so I did (rubbery boots, probably unbalanced etc).

New year’s eve just before the guest arrived I changed the passenger side wheel-hub assembly with the one I changed on the left side. Tested the car today and it finally worked!!

I just ordered a new one at Rock-Auto since there is quite a lot of play in that one but at least it is silent. The old right one had about only half the play but made a distinct grinding/scraping sound when spinning it by hand.

The best part is that I don't have a real garage, only roof and three walls (carport). So with 30F average I had good help from Mister John Walker

[Texas Jim]

Jan,

Glad you finally got it all sorted out.

I know how frustrating it can be ... chasing a problem.

[adallak]

The sounds can be confusing! Glad you finally found the culprit! That was quite unusual hub-bearing case symptom-wise.