Another 100,000 mile maintenance item?

[JohnnyG]

I know we've gone over this 100,000 mile maintenance list before, but can't remember (go figure) if drive belts were mentioned or not.

Yes, we've talked about brake fluid, which now seems to need changing every 50,000 or so, and we've talked about coolant, which has suddenly become every 5 years or sooner if possible. So when should the serpentine and water pump belt be changed?

At 88,000 miles, and showing no wear, I've decided to replace mine. Am I being foolish or wasting money? I doubt it, but I'd like to hear your opinions.

I did notice a couple of things. I managed to replace my serpentine belt (took about 1/2 hour) and the engine seems a little quieter. While I was doing that, I also eyed up the water pump belt, which I also bought when I bought the main belt. It seems that the grooves in the OLD belt are much deeper than in the new one. This must be where all of the wear takes place in this new design. Us "old guys" tend to look for damage and cracking on the outside of the belt, but it seems that now we should be looking at the inner surface of the belt for wear. I suppose it only makes sense.

Comments?

[Ranger]

Belt are soooo much better than the old "V" belts that used to break all the time. If there are no chunks missing and they are not squeaking, I leave 'em alone. My '92 has 125K on it when I traded it. Just my $0.02. I'm sure others will disagree.

[Bruce Nunnally]

Replacing the belts as preventative maintenance seems like a good idea to me, as long as you replace them with OEM quality belts. The 'book' answer is that the belts are good for the life of the engine.

Information on Serpentine Belt Wear #04-06-01-013 - (Apr 29, 2004)

Information on Serpentine Belt Wear

2004 and Prior Passenger Cars and Trucks

2003-2004 and Prior HUMMER H2

All current GM vehicles designed and manufactured in North America were assembled with serpentine belts that are made with an EPDM material and should last the life of the vehicle. It is extremely rare to observe any cracks in EPDM belts and it is not expected that they will require maintenance before 10 years or 240,000 km (150,000 mi) of use.

Older style belts, which were manufactured with a chloroprene compound, may exhibit cracks depending on age. However, the onset of cracking typically signals that the belt is only about halfway through its usable life.

A good rule of thumb for chloroprene-based belts is that if cracks are observed 3 mm (1/8 in) apart, ALL AROUND THE BELT, the belt may be reaching the end of its serviceable life and should be considered a candidate for changing. Small cracks spaced at greater intervals should not be considered as indicative that the belt needs changing.

Any belt that exhibits chunking should be replaced.

I would also consider the tensioner pulleys in each case, as they seem to wear as well.

[JimD]

I asked that PM mileage question here when our Guru still had his freedom of speach and he suggested that both drive belts deserved to be retired at 100,000 miles. I did that and never looked back. So far, I have not been stranded on the side of the road because of a belt failure. Replacing both belts at 88,000 miles is not being paranoid.

As to the brake fluid, I use a calendar rule (two years).

For the coolant, I use another calendar rule (3 years) no matter the mileage. Understand that I AM paranoid.

[Dadillac]

I just recently changed my belts and radiator hoses. My car has about 94,000 miles on it. The old belts didn't look bad, but aren't those some famous last words. The hoses looked about half used up. They were a bit soft and bloated. Peace of mind is what it is all about.

Don

[Cadillac Jim]

I changed my serpentine belt at 90,000 miles because the dealer said that it should be changed ever 30,000 miles, apparently on the assumption that my 1997 had the old style belt (it didn't). On the other hand, at 10 years and 130,000 miles, the brakes have never been bled and the front pads have 30% of their life left, and there is no sign of rust on the brake lines -- and I've checked carefully, because I've seen here that a few rear brake lines have rusted through in cars about 10 years old. Go figure.

I would leave the belt alone if it looks good, but look close. I'm a bit conservative about maintenance, and would, myself, change the belt if it was off for some other reason and it had over 100,000 miles on it, unless it looked really good on close inspection.

[adallak]

Belt are soooo much better than the old "V" belts that used to break all the time. If there are no chunks missing and they are not squeaking, I leave 'em alone. My '92 has 125K on it when I traded it. Just my $0.02. I'm sure others will disagree.

I agree with Ranger.

[clarkz71]

Belt are soooo much better than the old "V" belts that used to break all the time. If there are no chunks missing and they are not squeaking, I leave 'em alone. My '92 has 125K on it when I traded it. Just my $0.02. I'm sure others will disagree.

As a technician, I can't see not changing both belts at 50,000 miles or 5 years. We're talking $50 here.

[cyrez00]

here when our Guru still had his freedom of speach

Did i miss something?

[Bruce Nunnally]

The other side of the argument is that an unnecessary maintenance action on a reliable part actual increases the life cycle cost and decreases the reliability of the system.

I recall one GM service notice that asked the Dealers to stop taking the spark plugs out to check them. The spark plugs were fine for 100k miles, but follow-on problems were being caused by the maintenance check. If the belts are designed to last for the life of the car, and they actually do, there is no advantage to changing them earlier.

[Cadillac Jim]

In order to illuminate the fact that we all agree, let me sum up what I see as having been said here:

• If the serpentine belt is broken or missing, put a new one in.
• If the serpentine belt has chunks out of it or other visible physical defects or damage, change it.
• If it has lots of small cracks, plan to change it at your earliest opportunity.
• If you have it out and it has lots of miles or years on it, examine it closely and change it if you see any visible wear or damage.
• If it's not off the car for something else and it shows no signs of wear or damage, leave it alone, regardless of how old or how many miles it's seen.

Of course, others may have something to add to this...

[clarkz71]

I recall one GM service notice that asked the Dealers to stop taking the spark plugs out to check them. The spark plugs were fine for 100k miles, but follow-on problems were being caused by the maintenance check. If the belts are designed to last for the life of the car, and they actually do, there is no advantage to changing them earlier.

Have you ever heard of a plug frozen in an aluminum head because it's never been out

on an engine with 100K on it. I've not only heard of it, I've experienced it. Checking the

plugs can prevent problems in the future. Not only that, I pulled the plugs on my Eldo

at 55K, and half the pads were gone on the electrodes.

[Cadillac Jim]

My plugs needed changing at 60,000 miles but I didn't ask why, it was just stuttering a bit in a cold idle. If your pads were gone, then likely something was amiss in the tune, the gas, or whatever.

I would use anti-sieze on my plug threads and put them back with a torque wrench, or folow whatever instructions are in the FSM for recommended anti-sieze product and any differences in the procedure than my habits from my old Quad 4 HO. Following factory-recommended procedure is important to get just the right amount of compression of the plug gasket to keep a good seal for 100,000 miles, and to prevent the threads from seizing over eight years.

[clarkz71]

I agree. When the pads are gone, the gap opens up. This is a common problem with the AC/Delco plugs.

[JimD]

Anti-sieze not required or recommended on OEM Northstar plugs; ACDelco coats the threads with the proper material for an aluminum environment.

Additional lubricant will throw the torgue reading way off and THEN you will have problems removing the plugs after 80,000 miles.

[clarkz71]

No need to worry about torque. Tapered seat plugs are tightened 1/16 of a turn after contact. Gasket plugs, 1/4 turn.

That's the same with or without anti-seize.

[OynxSTS]

...we've talked about coolant, which has suddenly become every 5 years or sooner if possible....

Comments?

I'm not sure why you feel that the coolant service is a "suddenly become" thing... Dexcool has always been a 5 year coolant... Everyone forgets this and focuses on the 100,000+ miles part... Big mistake...

Dexcool is a 5 year thing.. MAX! I replace mine every other year just to be extra safe!

On an aluminum block motor I wouldn't go more then 4 years.

[MAC]

Anti-sieze not required or recommended on OEM Northstar plugs; ACDelco coats the threads with the proper material for an aluminum environment.

Additional lubricant will throw the torgue reading way off and THEN you will have problems removing the plugs after 80,000 miles.

This is true. The Guru said anti-seize is not needed or recommended. In fact, the Guru said to be careful with anti-seize because it can contaminate threads and cause problems. Also, if plugs are difficult to remove work it loose by loosening and tightening even if only a fraction at a time. If the plug won’t come loose with a moderate amount of torque then turn clockwise slightly with some torque then reverse counterclockwise, and repeat this several times. Eventually you’ll get some movement and continue the process. I’ve had some difficulty removing plugs and I will maintain whatever patience is necessary to remove it without galling the threads.

[Spurlee]

Back to belts, I'd recommend Gatorback serpentine belts - they are cross grooved and dissapate heat well. I used one on my Corvette for the water pump belt which is buried up against the block and very hot.

The water pump belt on my 1996 El Dorado dried out from the heat I guess and finally snapped. It's just a few minutes and a few dollars to change.

[clarkz71]

Dexcool is a 5 year thing.. MAX! I replace mine every other year just to be extra safe!

On an aluminum block motor I wouldn't go more then 4 years.

I agree, waiting 5 years to save $20 is just dumb.

[JohnnyG]

Did i miss something?

Yes, you did. But it was several years ago, we can't get it back now, so don't worry about it.

[JohnnyG]

I'm not sure why you feel that the coolant service is a "suddenly become" thing... Dexcool has always been a 5 year coolant... Everyone forgets this and focuses on the 100,000+ miles part... Big mistake...

Dexcool is a 5 year thing.. MAX! I replace mine every other year just to be extra safe!

On an aluminum block motor I wouldn't go more then 4 years.

You have the accent on the wrong part of the post. It should be on the SOONER part, which you so vehemently reinforced.

Suddenly, it has become the norm to replace Dexcool sooner than its expected service life........why is that?

[eldobohica]

I know we've gone over this 100,000 mile maintenance list before, but can't remember (go figure) if drive belts were mentioned or not.

Yes, we've talked about brake fluid, which now seems to need changing every 50,000 or so, and we've talked about coolant, which has suddenly become every 5 years or sooner if possible. So when should the serpentine and water pump belt be changed?

At 88,000 miles, and showing no wear, I've decided to replace mine. Am I being foolish or wasting money? I doubt it, but I'd like to hear your opinions.

I did notice a couple of things. I managed to replace my serpentine belt (took about 1/2 hour) and the engine seems a little quieter. While I was doing that, I also eyed up the water pump belt, which I also bought when I bought the main belt. It seems that the grooves in the OLD belt are much deeper than in the new one. This must be where all of the wear takes place in this new design. Us "old guys" tend to look for damage and cracking on the outside of the belt, but it seems that now we should be looking at the inner surface of the belt for wear. I suppose it only makes sense.

Comments?

My eldo is due for a belt change.. it shows signs of wear.. i think i'll do the tensioner as well.... will be flushing the brake fluid and the coolant soon as well.. is there a website that sells these items more reasonable than the dealer.. thank you.

[OynxSTS]

I'm not sure why you feel that the coolant service is a "suddenly become" thing... Dexcool has always been a 5 year coolant... Everyone forgets this and focuses on the 100,000+ miles part... Big mistake...

You have the accent on the wrong part of the post. It should be on the SOONER part, which you so vehemently reinforced.

Suddenly, it has become the norm to replace Dexcool sooner than its expected service life........why is that?

Coolant is an odd duck... Unlike motor oil, who's life span is mostly based on Engine revolutions and is somewhat a function of mileage... Coolant's life is based mostly on time. How long it sits in contact with the metals and plastics it lives with. But thats half of it.. Its life span is also based on the metals that its in contact with... Cast Iron is less likely to react with the collant then Aluminum is etc. So saying that a coolant product is good for 5 years in a cast iron motor as well as an aluminum motor is just marketing BS if you ask me...

The real problem with Dexcool is the label that reads good for 120,000 miles or 5 years... This is not new, its been like this since it was first used in 1996 and everyone forgets about the 5 year part. Unfortunately people read it like this :

120,000 miles or 5 years

Why do I change my coolant sooner then 5 years in my Northstar?

For me this is a risk vs cost thing. To replace my coolant every other year instead of every 5 years will cost me an extra $75 if I keep the car 10 years. It has been reported that changing your coolant regularly could help prevent a head gasket failure... $75 is a small price to avoid a $4000+ repair bill.

PS The early change thing isn't really a "suddenly" thing either... The Guru and others have been preaching this for at least 4 years on this and other Caddy forums.

BTW I know LOTS of guys who push their DexCool to 8-9-10 years with no issues. I know of a couple of guys, one with a 1998 Northstar and another with a 1997 still on the orginal coolant...No issues. If replacing the head gaskets on a Northstar was like it was on my 5.0 F150... $39 worth of gaskets and 3 hours bent over the front of my truck with a basic socket set... I'd say "sure, push it"... This is not the case on a Northstar.

Its just not worth it.

[Cadillac Jim]

I don't push my oil, either. When the OLI says 50%, I start planning a date to service the car.