Replacement shocks & struts for an ETC

[BostonETC97]

As I'm approaching 100K miles, I'm beginning to think about the unavoidable suspension overhaul. Right now I still have my original factory active system, but I am beginning to see the signs of fatigue. No bottoming out or sea-sickness yet, but the ride is becoming more floaty, and less responsive on uneven surfaces.

Most people would just trade the car in at this point, but they way I see it, spending a few thousand on maintenance and service an extremely clean, reliable, and comfortable car that I love is far less expensive than shelling over a check for a entire new car. Plus I've yet to find a suitable replacement for the Eldorado. Other than the CL-Class benz (large luxury coupe), the "heavy V-8 coupe" niche is basically owned by the Eldorado.

I know the suspension debate has gone on for a while, but I'm looking for some feedback about the best system and manufacturer to recreate the "firmer" ride of the ETC with the active system. I've been playing with the idea of the OEM replacements, but the idea of spending $2-3k JUST on struts seems a bit steep. I'd rather swap out for a passive system and save the rest of the money for future repairs and overhauls that I'll ultimately face as the car gets into the 100k+ range. Ideally I'd like to keep the rear height control system active, and plan on replacing the air lines at the time of the shock replacement.

On the whole I do enjoy the benefits of the active system, but don't think I'll miss it *too* much. As I've heard before, a new and functioning passive system is FAR better and safer than a worn-out and bouncy active.

Just looking for some opinions and reviews before I have to 'bite the bullet!'

Hope everybody is having a great weekend!

-Scott

[rmac-etc]

Same here, but a bit older ... 95 etc ~150k ... still on original struts. Ok but probably would love some new suspension peices ...

As I'm approaching 100K miles, I'm beginning to think about the unavoidable suspension overhaul. Right now I still have my original factory active system, but I am beginning to see the signs of fatigue. No bottoming out or sea-sickness yet, but the ride is becoming more floaty, and less responsive on uneven surfaces.

Most people would just trade the car in at this point, but they way I see it, spending a few thousand on maintenance and service an extremely clean, reliable, and comfortable car that I love is far less expensive than shelling over a check for a entire new car. Plus I've yet to find a suitable replacement for the Eldorado. Other than the CL-Class benz (large luxury coupe), the "heavy V-8 coupe" niche is basically owned by the Eldorado.

I know the suspension debate has gone on for a while, but I'm looking for some feedback about the best system and manufacturer to recreate the "firmer" ride of the ETC with the active system. I've been playing with the idea of the OEM replacements, but the idea of spending $2-3k JUST on struts seems a bit steep. I'd rather swap out for a passive system and save the rest of the money for future repairs and overhauls that I'll ultimately face as the car gets into the 100k+ range. Ideally I'd like to keep the rear height control system active, and plan on replacing the air lines at the time of the shock replacement.

On the whole I do enjoy the benefits of the active system, but don't think I'll miss it *too* much. As I've heard before, a new and functioning passive system is FAR better and safer than a worn-out and bouncy active.

Just looking for some opinions and reviews before I have to 'bite the bullet!'

Hope everybody is having a great weekend!

-Scott

[JimD]

Different chassis, different struts, but I replaced my '98 Seville fronts only at 145,800 miles and should have done it much sooner.

I changed my mind on the active vs. passive question every day for months before I convinced myself to spend the money on OEM active and enjoy the ride for 3 or 4 more years. There is no question about the rest of the car making it well past 200,000 miles.

I would stay with ACDelco and avoid the aftermarket suppliers and their "kits". Call Brasington Cadillac - Saab in Florida and tell the parts guys what you are trying to do (352-378-5301). I'm certain your year / model chassis was available with or without active suspension which means there is a GM part # for the OEM - ACDelco passive front struts; something like 22064723 and 22064724.

If you go with passive you will have to deal with the OBD message that will result. Not a big deal and the OBD test logic can be fooled without buying hard-to-find crude monster 50 watt resistors.

[Cadillac Jim]

My 1997 ETC turned over 119,000 miles yesterday and the struts are just fine. You have at least a year to decide. I would look for a good price on OEM shocks. The DIC message is real, suppressed or not -- the electrically activated shocks are critical to the safety of the car. If you have a 1997 or later, you have Stabilitrak, and that is not going to work properly if you use passive struts and fool the modules with resistors. Note that there is legislation to make stabiltiy control mandatory on all new cars because it's been found to save more lives than seat belts and air bags.

You'll notice the difference the first time you pass from a smooth surface to a poor freeway surface, or need an abrupt steering manuever and the shocks don't change mode to suit what's required. One-size-fits-all damping can't give you a world class ride on any driveable surface with world class handling at any speed. And, as I mentioned, there's a safety issue.

[jackc]

I installed AC Delco passive replacement struts and shocks on my 93. They are a big improvement over the worn-out OEM's that I replaced. My only complaint would be that the ride is a little on the stiff side of what I'd prefer.

The installation of the rear shocks went without a hitch. The rear height control system operates independently from the ride control system, and is fully functional with the passives. The popular passive shock packages (Boston, Arnott) would also provide for rear height control.

The only hitch on the installation of the front struts was that I had to enlarge the holes for the sway-bar links. Overall I'm happy with what I have, in light of what it cost me.

Hope this helps.

[kcd1184]

I recently installed oem front struts on my 94 Eldo. I felt that my old struts were ok (120,000) but I kept getting front position sensor codes and there was an annoying small clank with some bumps. I actually have a left front position sensor downstairs that I never installed. The difference between the old and new struts is like night and day. As struts weaken, we probably don't notice the diminished performance because it is so gradual. I don't know about buying passive ones, I'm already dealing with a PO54 code with a service engine soon light issue. No RSS codes have returned since the switch. I was lucky in finding oem struts on e-bay for a very good price.

Kent

[BostonETC97]

I'd love to know why the OEM's have such a high replacement cost. I'd like to hope it's not because its a known "necessary replacement component." I know there must be more manufacturing processes involved with the active setup, but does it really triple the cost of an ordinary strut?

I'd really like to keep the active system, as Jim had said, it's all part of the stabili-trak which has saved me a few times, and is well worth its weight in gold. I'm just having a hard time with the economics of tossing 3k of parts into a car that's probably worth about 3k once it's over the 100k+ mileage barrier.

[JimD]

....

I'd really like to keep the active system, as Jim had said, it's all part of the stabili-trak which has saved me a few times....

Please describe the circumstances of being saved a few times; as in weather conditions, road conditions, what the car was doing that you needed to be saved from.

How do you know Stabilitrak was responsible for the save? What specific action(s) did Stabilitrak inititate to accomplish the save?

[Cadillac Jim]

I would venture that if Stabiltrak kept you on the road in an emergency, you would have no way of telling for sure exactly what happened unless you had a passenger with the presence of mind to observe the details; the driver would likely be preoccupied with dealing with the car and the situation. If you jammed on the brakes and wrenched the wheel to avoid a large rock or log in the road in the rain, for example, the ABS might make both the brakes and steering work but only a stability control system like Stabilitrak will keep you from spinning out. ABS controls individual wheel traction, but Stabilitrak handles yaw events. If you have ever had a driving emergency involving a yaw event, you can rest assured that Stabilitrak made sure that you stayed in control. I don't believe that there is a DIC message, and you can't disable Stabilitrak like you can traction control.

In the past, cars that were suspension-tuned for understeer would simply turn sideways and stop if you found yourself going too fast in a decreasing-radius turn or similar situation. Most of us have experienced this a time or two in a long driving career. Your 1997 or later Cadillac will keep you in control and on the road. If you put passive struts on and fool the system with resistors, it will still be there but it won't opreate properly. I have no idea what loss of effectiveness would accrue, but it seems to me that it could be severe if the system tries to activate a damping change on the front struts and there is none.

[JimD]

Putting the strut price difference question aside while we try to learn more about stability control.

We really need a design person from GM or Delphi in this discussion; I would love to read a 500 word paper on the design theory / application / implementation / integration of the Stabilitrak pieces.

I do not believe the strut damping effort adjustability is the primary control factor when you are attempting to automatically correct an understeer / oversteer condition.

Having the ability to apply appropriate brake pressure to individual wheels PLUS the ability to control engine power (injector pulse width manipulation) seems to me to be the foundation of the system.

[KHE]

I'd love to know why the OEM's have such a high replacement cost. I'd like to hope it's not because its a known "necessary replacement component." I know there must be more manufacturing processes involved with the active setup, but does it really triple the cost of an ordinary strut?

I'd really like to keep the active system, as Jim had said, it's all part of the stabili-trak which has saved me a few times, and is well worth its weight in gold. I'm just having a hard time with the economics of tossing 3k of parts into a car that's probably worth about 3k once it's over the 100k+ mileage barrier.

The shocks/struts fail in two ways - the damping mechanism wears to the point where the ride quality degrades or the electronic damper valve goes bad. That is the part that will turn on the "SERVICE RIDE CONTROL" message on the DIC.

The damper can be removed from the shock as long as the shock is removed from the car and remains in a horizontal position so the oil does not leak out. It's too bad the damper is not available as a service part - possibly because the designers figured the shock would be worn out by the time the damper valve failed.

As these cars get up in age it is very difficult to justify the high prices of the OEM shocks/struts. Many of the OEM shocks have been discontinued.

[Patrick7997]

I thought OEM struts were available for around $800 a set on places like Rockauto.com or gmpartsdirect.com????? That's fronts only....

Maybe I'm wrong.

Mine doesn't need it yet, but it will... I figured I would get the parts and try to do it myself.... For $800, I'll stay original... $2000 is another matter....

There was a guy on the "other" forum, Iamatarq, I think, who had a "how to", with pictures.... seemed doable...

Hold that thought, I just looked, I have his procedure on my computer, but I can't get the pictures to upload to this forum....

If anyone is interested, or knows how to post it somehow, email me at patrick7992@ameritech.net, and I'll email the procedure I have straight to you.....

[Bill K]

The only info I have been able to find on Stabilitrak all relates to it controling the brakes & engine. The struts seem to be a seperate item.

Many of the models(Chev. ect.) that now have the "S" do not have adaptive struts.

[BostonETC97]

You're 100% right that I might never really know if stabilitrak "saved" me, but I have no doubt it assisted in sporty situations.

Most recently I approached a two lane curved exit ramp at an excessive speed. As I came out of the covered highway and onto the ramp, I realized the ramp was wet from a passing thunder shower. As the car went from the dry pavement to the wet under heavy braking and turning, it started heavily plowing the front wheels. The ABS/Stabilitrak kicked in, and I have no doubt that it kept me from going straight into the rail. The "Stability Engaged" message appeared, and I must say I was thankful for that! By no means would that have been a 'fatal' accident, but I would have had a nice 4-figure bill to have the bumper and left side of the car repaired.

As stable as the Eldorado is, it's a scary car once control is lost. Its weight shifts make corrections difficult, and its not the most forgiving car once control is lost. Fortunately, I think the car gives plenty of warnings and cues when you're 'pushing the envelope.'

[coolnesss]

I have a 98 ETC with 80k miles, and I drive it hard, live up a canyon in the hills, and I HAVE to do something - the car is wallowing all over the place, and I frequently find myself driving much slower than I am used to to keep control.

Monroe has electronic shocks, which they claim are an exact replacement for the original equipment. They're a few hunded bux cheaper for the 4.

Does anyone have experience with them, or has anyone heard any rumors?????

THANKS

[coolnesss]

You're 100% right that I might never really know if stabilitrak "saved" me, but I have no doubt it assisted in sporty situations.

The following may have some somewhat innacurate in my memory - I read it in a car mag some time ago, but the basics are correct:

The stability systems have been saving lives like crazy.

Everyone thought ABS would be the cure-all, but, when they studied collisions of cars with ABS, versus cars with stability systems, they found that ABS decreased road deaths a little bit, and stability systems decreased them dramatically. The cost of the stability systems is much less also.

There's a proposal now to require stability systems for all cars beginning in 2009 or 2010.

So, since I like to gitupandgo, I want to keep the electronic system.

[BostonETC97]

My guess is that 75% of the drivers out there don't know how to handle a near-loss or total-loss of control situation. You can often see it on a snow day around here - just look for the driver of an SUV (not a 'real SUV,' but something like the small Lexus with the fake/useless all-wheel-drive system) as it rounds a turn. You can see the hands go up to the cheeks in the "OH MY GAWD" look, as the car is still moving. A clear sign the driver literally gave up trying to control the car, stands on the brake pedal, and is panicking severely.

Any system that helps prevent control loss will clearly save a life. Sadly, I don't know why skid-school is not part of driver training. We can bark all day long about using seatbelts and obeying speed limits, but when it comes time, the real asset is learning to control the car in extreme situations, while remaining calm enough to stay on top of the situation at hand.

The second most over-looked thing IMHO is learning how to drive YOUR car. The very first thing I do with a new car is learn the ABS and traction systems in a big empty parking lot. I'll do it on dry pavement, wet pavement, and in the snow. You need to know the threshold of the system, how it reacts once it's activated, and how it affects braking and control as it operates. This varies for every car, and I've even seen variance in two same-year-same-model cars. I've seen too many friends panic when the ABS kicks in, let off the brakes, and start pumping them (BAD!).

It's also important to learn if the car oversteers, understeers, and how to correct each of them. I'm willing to take a few hundred miles of rubber off my tires once or twice a year to practice the braking and skid techniques. I figure in a real world situation it'll be good to know exactly how my car is going to behave.

To me, driving a car is no different than flying a plane or shooting a gun. It's only going to be a safe as you make it, and between personal experience and continuously learning from more experienced people, you can constantly improve your own technique.