clarksls Posted October 7, 2008 Report Share Posted October 7, 2008 I have a 98 SLS 80k miles. When I pulled then heads off ALL bolts came out clean, no aluminum at all. I was wondering if I should still put in the inserts for the threads? thanks Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bruce Nunnally Posted October 7, 2008 Report Share Posted October 7, 2008 My advice is yes, timesert every hole. It is much easier to do that now while you have the engine open than to have to go back in later. Note also that the head bolts are not re-usable. Bruce 2023 Cadillac CT4-V Blackwing Follow me on: Twitter Instagram Youtube Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cadillac Jim Posted October 7, 2008 Report Share Posted October 7, 2008 BodybyFisher or Bruce can verify this, but I believe that GM recommends that their techs to Timesert every aluminum block when they pull the heads for any reason, although the early FSMs said to Timesert only the stripped ones. My personal point of view is that aluminum threads with threadlock and sealer are a one-time thing. In any case, you can be assured that if you Timesert the block then you can count on the head bolts just like a new engine -- or better, whereas if you don't then you are going against GM recommendations. Take your time and follow all the Timesert instructions to the letter. A lot of dealer techs have, in the past, had bad luck trying to work faster than the flat rate job time estimates to keep their hourly rate up. -- Click Here for CaddyInfo page on "How To" Read Your OBD Codes-- Click Here for my personal page to download my OBD code list as an Excel file, plus other Cadillac data -- See my CaddyInfo car blogs: 2011 CTS-V, 1997 ETC Yes, I was Jims_97_ETC before I changed cars. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BodybyFisher Posted October 7, 2008 Report Share Posted October 7, 2008 You know, if you don't, you will be driving a question mark. If I am not mistaken, Bruce (am I correct Bruce), didn't have his block timeserted and the head gaskets were a problem within 12K miles. Our experience is that the engine will last about 12K miles and you will have a problem again. About a week ago, I was in the gym and the guys next to me were discussing NAPA ceramic brake pads, one guy was dissing them. I said, I installed them about a week ago, and personally I LOVE them, my wheels are clean and they really haul my car down to a stop, with progressive pressure creating more stopping power. One of the guys said, what kind of car, I said, DEVILLE, he said, that is why, its a heavy car and you are producing a lot of heat, ceramics work better when they are hot. I only experienced a slight cold performance issue once but they were also wet. Anyway, he goes on to say that he just did a head gasket on a Northstar, he was a local service station mechanic. I said, you timeserted the block right? He said, what are timeserts, NA, the proper method is torque angle and it will be fine, he was very aggressive with his opinion. I said, I belong to caddyinfo, we have Northstar techs there and the proper method to do a head gasket is to timesert the block otherwise you will have a problem about 12K miles. He said, he had done a bunch and has had NO call backs and that whoever did those head gaskets MUST have removed the head bolts when the engine was hot. After, I picked my mouth up off the floor, because who POSSIBLY could get to the head bolts while the engine was STILL HOT?, realizing his thick headedness, I said, well good luck with that, but if you check the proper repair detailed by GM is timeserting. He had a laugh with his friend at my expense when I walked away, and that is fine, opinions vary. I would have liked to have had a caddyinfo business card to hand him, I need to print some up. The point of my story is because you will get different opinions out there, and they will have strong opinions out about it. But the bottom line is, the proper repair sanctioned by GM is timeserting the block, not doing so is risky Pre-1995 - DTC codes OBD1 >> 1996 and newer - DTC codes OBD2 >> https://www.obd-codes.com/trouble_codes/gm/obd_codes.htm How to check for codes Caddyinfo How To Technical Archive >> http://www.caddyinfo.com/wordpress/cadillac-how-to-faq/ Cadillac History & Specifications Year by Year http://www.motorera.com/cadillac/index.htm Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ranger Posted October 7, 2008 Report Share Posted October 7, 2008 Timeserting it while it is out is just good insurance. You may pull a thread or two while torquing the heads and have to pull them again. Can't remember who it was that did not do it the first time and wound up doing it again in 10K. He was the guy who did it with the engine in the car Mike. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BodybyFisher Posted October 7, 2008 Report Share Posted October 7, 2008 Timeserting it while it is out is just good insurance. You may pull a thread or two while torquing the heads and have to pull them again. Can't remember who it was that did not do it the first time and wound up doing it again in 10K. He was the guy who did it with the engine in the car Mike. Was it Growe3?, I think he had a burned valve if I recall, Growe3 pops in often, I am sure he will pop into this thread.. Pre-1995 - DTC codes OBD1 >> 1996 and newer - DTC codes OBD2 >> https://www.obd-codes.com/trouble_codes/gm/obd_codes.htm How to check for codes Caddyinfo How To Technical Archive >> http://www.caddyinfo.com/wordpress/cadillac-how-to-faq/ Cadillac History & Specifications Year by Year http://www.motorera.com/cadillac/index.htm Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KHE Posted October 7, 2008 Report Share Posted October 7, 2008 You know, if you don't, you will be driving a question mark. If I am not mistaken, Bruce (am I correct Bruce), didn't have his block timeserted and the head gaskets were a problem within 12K miles. Our experience is that the engine will last about 12K miles and you will have a problem again. About a week ago, I was in the gym and the guys next to me were discussing NAPA ceramic brake pads, one guy was dissing them. I said, I installed them about a week ago, and personally I LOVE them, my wheels are clean and they really haul my car down to a stop, with progressive pressure creating more stopping power. One of the guys said, what kind of car, I said, DEVILLE, he said, that is why, its a heavy car and you are producing a lot of heat, ceramics work better when they are hot. I only experienced a slight cold performance issue once but they were also wet. Anyway, he goes on to say that he just did a head gasket on a Northstar, he was a local service station mechanic. I said, you timeserted the block right? He said, what are timeserts, NA, the proper method is torque angle and it will be fine, he was very aggressive with his opinion. I said, I belong to caddyinfo, we have Northstar techs there and the proper method to do a head gasket is to timesert the block otherwise you will have a problem about 12K miles. He said, he had done a bunch and has had NO call backs and that whoever did those head gaskets MUST have removed the head bolts when the engine was hot. After, I picked my mouth up off the floor, because who POSSIBLY could get to the head bolts while the engine was STILL HOT?, realizing his thick headedness, I said, well good luck with that, but if you check the proper repair detailed by GM is timeserting. He had a laugh with his friend at my expense when I walked away, and that is fine, opinions vary. I would have liked to have had a caddyinfo business card to hand him, I need to print some up. The point of my story is because you will get different opinions out there, and they will have strong opinions out about it. But the bottom line is, the proper repair sanctioned by GM is timeserting the block, not doing so is risky The guy at the gym didn't even know what a Timesert was if he went into describing how to torque the fastener... Removing the headbolts while the engine was hot??? I'd really like to know HOW that could be done... It's scary that people like him are working on people's cars... Kevin '93 Fleetwood Brougham '05 Deville '04 Deville 2013 Silverado Z71 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BodybyFisher Posted October 7, 2008 Report Share Posted October 7, 2008 Kevin, I explained to him, what timeserts were referred him to timesert.com, told him to come here, and he said, HE DOES NOT WASTE TIME ON THE INTERNET, I HAVE FIXED MANY NORTHSTARS the SECRET IS USING TORQUE ANGLE to tighten the head bolts, and went on to say those headbolts that failed must have been removed HOT or WARM.... When I heard this, I was in the middle of doing tri-cept exercises and realized that he was a thick head and I acquiessed...I am MUCH better WRITING than I am VERBALLY. As I get older I have learned to back away from strong wrong opinions, its not worth the head ache, if he gets the car back in his lap, maybe he will learn HIS lesson..... Pre-1995 - DTC codes OBD1 >> 1996 and newer - DTC codes OBD2 >> https://www.obd-codes.com/trouble_codes/gm/obd_codes.htm How to check for codes Caddyinfo How To Technical Archive >> http://www.caddyinfo.com/wordpress/cadillac-how-to-faq/ Cadillac History & Specifications Year by Year http://www.motorera.com/cadillac/index.htm Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dgaouette Posted October 7, 2008 Report Share Posted October 7, 2008 My local Caddy dealer told me they only timesert the holes that are bad as timeserts are very expensive. Needless to say I decided to do the job myself and did them all. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
clarksls Posted October 7, 2008 Author Report Share Posted October 7, 2008 Hey thanks for all of your guys help I will do all of them. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BodybyFisher Posted October 7, 2008 Report Share Posted October 7, 2008 Hey thanks for all of your guys help I will do all of them. If you need help let us know many members here have timeserted their own engines and we have a lot of info that will be helpful. Are you doing this yourself or having someone do it? Pre-1995 - DTC codes OBD1 >> 1996 and newer - DTC codes OBD2 >> https://www.obd-codes.com/trouble_codes/gm/obd_codes.htm How to check for codes Caddyinfo How To Technical Archive >> http://www.caddyinfo.com/wordpress/cadillac-how-to-faq/ Cadillac History & Specifications Year by Year http://www.motorera.com/cadillac/index.htm Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Barry94 Posted October 7, 2008 Report Share Posted October 7, 2008 Timeserting it while it is out is just good insurance. You may pull a thread or two while torquing the heads and have to pull them again. Can't remember who it was that did not do it the first time and wound up doing it again in 10K. He was the guy who did it with the engine in the car Mike. Hi, not sure if you're thinking about me, however, I fit the description. When I purchased my '94 STS in '97, it had a burned exhaust valve. I replaced both exhaust valves in that cyl and DID NOT timesert any of the holes. At that time I did not know anything about timeserts. I torqued the head, using the GM specs using the proper torque angle tool. The repair lasted about two years, then I started getting the over heating problem. The cause was three head bolts had "pulled" the threads from the block. I then timeserted all the holes and have not had a problem since. Obviously my response is that you need to timesert an engine when the head is removed. And I did the head/timesert job with the engine in the car. (Twice) Regards, Barry 2008 STS V82016 Colorado Z711970 Corvette LT-1 Coupe Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BodybyFisher Posted October 8, 2008 Report Share Posted October 8, 2008 Yes, I am sorry, I was thinking of you Barry (I remembered the burned valve).. Thanks Pre-1995 - DTC codes OBD1 >> 1996 and newer - DTC codes OBD2 >> https://www.obd-codes.com/trouble_codes/gm/obd_codes.htm How to check for codes Caddyinfo How To Technical Archive >> http://www.caddyinfo.com/wordpress/cadillac-how-to-faq/ Cadillac History & Specifications Year by Year http://www.motorera.com/cadillac/index.htm Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KHE Posted October 8, 2008 Report Share Posted October 8, 2008 Kevin, I explained to him, what timeserts were referred him to timesert.com, told him to come here, and he said, HE DOES NOT WASTE TIME ON THE INTERNET, I HAVE FIXED MANY NORTHSTARS the SECRET IS USING TORQUE ANGLE to tighten the head bolts, and went on to say those headbolts that failed must have been removed HOT or WARM.... When I heard this, I was in the middle of doing tri-cept exercises and realized that he was a thick head and I acquiessed...I am MUCH better WRITING than I am VERBALLY. As I get older I have learned to back away from strong wrong opinions, its not worth the head ache, if he gets the car back in his lap, maybe he will learn HIS lesson..... I know what you mean - you'll never convince those "know-it-all" types - it is not worth the energy. I do laugh how the guy thinks the torque-angle is a trick... it's the standard procedure in the shop manual regardless on wether inserts are used or not. After I repaired the engine in my STS, a guy at work told me I should have used the "aircraft" version of heilicoils and he was very adament they wouldn't pull... I showed him the Timesert site where they list the Bigsert and the description was "for when heilicoil fails..." He still wouldn't let up and I asked him, "Why (explitives deleted...) would I risk all the work to save a token amount of money by not using the factory approved parts???" He didn't have a good response. Kevin '93 Fleetwood Brougham '05 Deville '04 Deville 2013 Silverado Z71 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ranger Posted October 8, 2008 Report Share Posted October 8, 2008 Yeah, It was you I was thinking about Barry. Now it comes back to me. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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