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4.9FWDfan

1991 Eldorado ETC - Transaxle or Fuel Injectors?

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Hi Everyone,

New member here - contemplating buying my first Caddy (see title). I am a Ford guy going way back.  Mustangs and Lincolns (Town Car and Mark vii). I have recently discovered the awesomeness of these FWD Cadillacs (up to '93) and now I want one! Better late than never I guess.

I have test driven a 1991 ETC (what a cool car) and have some concerns. I have educated myself about the issues with fuel injectors (on the 4.9s) and other common problems with these drivetrains.

Car starts up and runs ok, gets all gears - shifts smoothly but, when in gear, idling (drive or reverse) there is a slight jerkiness to the motion (foot not on the gas). Once accelerating you can't feel it. Once you get off the gas (now coasting) you can feel it again as you coast to a stop.

It's almost like the brake was being pumped 2 or 3 times a second very lightly.

Could this be fuel injectors (misfire)?

Is there any way that the trans could produce this sensation?

I have no problem doing injectors but I'm not looking to mess with tranny problems on day 1 with my "new" car.

Mileage is 180 000 kms (112 000 miles). Very clean car in and out.

Thanks!

Edited by 4.9FWDfan
Was not done yet.

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I have experienced this.  While idling in Park, suddenly you hear a noise and the car moves a slight bit.   I had a 91 Seville, very similar to yours.  I do believe that it is caused by the SPRAG.  My sprag finally failed and I had the tranny rebuilt.  Is that what you experience?

Does it happen iding in park?

Have a good tranny guy feel it

@4.9FWDfan


Pre-1995 - DTC codes OBD1  >>

1996 and newer - DTC codes OBD2 >> https://www.obd-codes.com/trouble_codes/gm/obd_codes.htm

How to check for codes Caddyinfo How To Technical Archive >> http://www.caddyinfo.com/wordpress/cadillac-how-to-faq/

Cadillac History & Specifications Year by Year  http://www.motorera.com/cadillac/index.htm

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3 hours ago, BodybyFisher said:

Does it happen idling in park?

@4.9FWDfan

Nope. Not in park. Only in gear - Drive or Reverse, foot off the gas. Maybe "lurching" is a better way to describe it. But with rhythm. Like someone was pumping the brake (very lightly) in time with a metronome. Car idles at 600/625.

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You need to determine if this is mechanical or ignition related.  

Do you know how to check the codes?, you have an on board OBD1 diagnostic system that you can retrieve the trouble codes from.

Does your check engine light flash when this happens?


Pre-1995 - DTC codes OBD1  >>

1996 and newer - DTC codes OBD2 >> https://www.obd-codes.com/trouble_codes/gm/obd_codes.htm

How to check for codes Caddyinfo How To Technical Archive >> http://www.caddyinfo.com/wordpress/cadillac-how-to-faq/

Cadillac History & Specifications Year by Year  http://www.motorera.com/cadillac/index.htm

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Maybe the torque converter locking and unlocking?  Bad brake switch being the cause?


93 DeVille-13 Chevy Impala

72 GTO - 77 Triumph Bonneville

84 Z-28

Syracuse NY

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The codes need to be checked.  I need to pull my 91 manual.

This could be the ABS engaging, also.

I do not believe that all the codes can be pulled though the dash... (its been a long time), will do some research.   You need ABS codes also

Sonjaab raises a good point, the converter clutch could be engaging and disengaging also

Check codes asap, if you don't know how, let us know


Pre-1995 - DTC codes OBD1  >>

1996 and newer - DTC codes OBD2 >> https://www.obd-codes.com/trouble_codes/gm/obd_codes.htm

How to check for codes Caddyinfo How To Technical Archive >> http://www.caddyinfo.com/wordpress/cadillac-how-to-faq/

Cadillac History & Specifications Year by Year  http://www.motorera.com/cadillac/index.htm

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On 9/6/2019 at 10:29 AM, sonjaab said:

Maybe the torque converter locking and unlocking?  Bad brake switch being the cause?

Is this a real possibility? Like I said, I didn't feel this at all when accelerating or cruising at speed. Ahh ... I see what you're getting at. The brake switch is what unlocks the torque converter. But shouldn't this only (theoretically) be a factor in 3rd or 4th gear?

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19 hours ago, BodybyFisher said:

This could be the ABS engaging, also.

Sonjaab raises a good point, the converter clutch could be engaging and disengaging also

Check codes asap, if you don't know how, let us know

I really don't think it's brakes but who knows. I was using the brake analogy to help describe what I was feeling. you can pretty plainly feel ABS action right up through the pedal. There was none of that.

Could the TCC be active at idle? I guess anything is possible when stuff goes wrong.

First thing I did was check codes. There was nothing there of use. Two relating to the computers being reset (battery was dead - car needed a jump start to get going) and Twilight Sentinel. No check engine light came on during my (one and only) drive. Don't know about these cars but my Nissan will only turn on a warning light if it sees the same problem after two drive cycles.

Remember -  I don't own this car. everything I'm telling you is from the one and only time I saw and drove it.

 

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What you see here is something called brain storming.  Members thinking about your problem and giving a possible cause.  A line of thinking.  We tend not duel or shut down others thoughts regardless of how experienced we are or how ludicrous someone's suggestion is given the fact that someone in some part of the planet took the time to contemplate and respond to a problem.  We feed off each others ideas and questions.  

In addition we have NO idea how experienced or inexperienced you are or what you have done to date.  We rely upon you to tell us ALL details.  Our questions PROBE for details and info from you.

Keep in mind we have not driven the car, can't feel it nor can we hear it.

At no point did you say you checked codes, so you left us in the dark and we wasted time.  We can only respond to your description of the problem, that you left information out, about checking codes, driving it once and compared it to a nissan and made assumptions was left out.  You said, the car starts up and runs ok in your first post.

You now say, the battery was dead, and you checked codes.... when did you check codes immediately after jumping it?, because the system needs to go through a drive cycle of about 50 miles to run all tests, maybe less for some tests.  

Now don't get me wrong, I am not being testy or a jerk, this is a give and take.  

I had my 91 Seville for 10 years and had the sprag go, did all work and became proficient with OBD1 and used it for real time data. Toward the end the sprag did some weird things at speed.    I have been here since 1995, sent 4.9 parts and 4.9 engines to europe.  Have 20,000 posts here many on 4.9 platforms between my bbf and scotty names.  And I can tell I have never heard of a problem like yours and I definately would remember.  

We are asking probing questions and trying to dive into your problem, try not shooting down avenues of thought, that car is 30 years old and all kinds of stuff could happen especially if it sat for a long time.

Checking codes is only good after a drive cycle of 50 miles 

How long did the car sit?

You jumped a totally dead battery? <<< answer that. You may not have had sufficient current to drive the coil, my 91 died with a bad battery as soon as I hit the accelerator

You MAY have been feeling misfiring due to a bad battery with insufficient current to drive the coil.  But we know nothing about the battery or if the car was jumped and assessed with a weak battery, connections or how far it was driven.

Restate exactly what you did from the time you saw the car based on issues I brought up.  I need to look at my 91 factory service manual.  This car will NOT run right with a bad battery that wasnt fully charged or with a dead cell.


Pre-1995 - DTC codes OBD1  >>

1996 and newer - DTC codes OBD2 >> https://www.obd-codes.com/trouble_codes/gm/obd_codes.htm

How to check for codes Caddyinfo How To Technical Archive >> http://www.caddyinfo.com/wordpress/cadillac-how-to-faq/

Cadillac History & Specifications Year by Year  http://www.motorera.com/cadillac/index.htm

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I may have missed some details but…. Has it been garaged for a long time? Breake linings stuck to rotors? If so it should go away after hard use.

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2 minutes ago, Göran W said:

I may have missed some details but…. Has it been garaged for a long time? Breake linings stuck to rotors? If so it should go away after hard use.

That is a good point, that crossed my mind also.  Was the parking brake shoes at the rear or did the parking brake tighten the caliper?


Pre-1995 - DTC codes OBD1  >>

1996 and newer - DTC codes OBD2 >> https://www.obd-codes.com/trouble_codes/gm/obd_codes.htm

How to check for codes Caddyinfo How To Technical Archive >> http://www.caddyinfo.com/wordpress/cadillac-how-to-faq/

Cadillac History & Specifications Year by Year  http://www.motorera.com/cadillac/index.htm

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The ABS system trouble codes are checked differently on this model, here is a photo from the manual.  Ill do some reading later.  As can be seen here the ABS codes are retained even if battery is disconnected.

20190907_152600.jpg

20190907_152545.jpg


Pre-1995 - DTC codes OBD1  >>

1996 and newer - DTC codes OBD2 >> https://www.obd-codes.com/trouble_codes/gm/obd_codes.htm

How to check for codes Caddyinfo How To Technical Archive >> http://www.caddyinfo.com/wordpress/cadillac-how-to-faq/

Cadillac History & Specifications Year by Year  http://www.motorera.com/cadillac/index.htm

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55 minutes ago, BodybyFisher said:

What you see here is something called brain storming.  Members thinking about your problem and giving a possible cause.  A line of thinking.  We tend not duel or shut down others thoughts regardless of how experienced we are or how ludicrous someone's suggestion is given the fact that someone in some part of the planet took the time to contemplate and respond to a problem.  We feed off each others ideas and questions. 

Whoa. I never shut down anything. You're hearing something other than what I said (or typed). I answered questions that were asked.. I'm not new to forums or fixing cars. Please do not make assumptions about me.

Moving on ...

It's the guy's summer car - so it sits out winters. He disconnects the battery when in storage and he seemed genuinely surprised when it would not start. I found out later the battery is eight years old so it may have just reached it's end at that particular moment. He jump started it, not me - from a charger. I do not know if the battery was completely dead.  I did not put a meter to it. It did not have enough juice to crank the engine at all. Solenoid click - that's it. I do not know exactly how long the car has been sitting. Yes I checked codes immediately after we got it running.

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1 hour ago, BodybyFisher said:

That is a good point, that crossed my mind also.  Was the parking brake shoes at the rear or did the parking brake tighten the caliper?

He does not use the parking brake. I always ask because I always use it. Don't want to put the E-brake on in a car if it hasn't been used in years.

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So. If this was me I would drive the car some more.

I say that because if the battery was dead for a length of time then everything needs to be relearned, which takes time and miles.

That generation was common to the sprag issue but I would not assume such yet with the details you have given.

As for codes I never am confident with OBD1 throwing much of any codes. The engine could fall out and the light may never come on lol.

Did the PO say anything about this being a previous issue?


GM FAN FOREVER

Nice, clean, luxury= fine automobile

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44 minutes ago, rockfangd said:

So. If this was me I would drive the car some more.

I say that because if the battery was dead for a length of time then everything needs to be relearned, which takes time and miles.

That generation was common to the sprag issue but I would not assume such yet with the details you have given.

As for codes I never am confident with OBD1 throwing much of any codes. The engine could fall out and the light may never come on lol.

Did the PO say anything about this being a previous issue?

I hear ya. Think I will ask him if I can have another look at it. May seem like a bit of a pain to him but if he wants to sell it ...😉

The sprag thing is what scares me. Anything transmission to precise. Never heard of that one before.

He never mentioned anything about it. To be fair he's not really a "car guy". He clearly loves the car, but I don't think he's ever turned a wrench on it himself. Not his fault - not everybody is inclined that way. I asked about fuel economy - he said it's a total guzzler, with that "monster v8" you know. It needs a tune - up for sure. I explained it really shouldn't be a whole lot different than the Lincoln (Mark vii) I used to own. Which got very good mileage even compared to cars today. He doesn't get it. And that's fine. You just can't really him any real mechanical stuff - he doesn't understand it.

The poor fuel economy thing had me thinking injectors (one possibility), considering the behaviour of the car. I had the average fuel economy display going for the duration of my short drive and it actually was looking pretty decent to me.

It really is a neat car 😁 but I don't want a pig-in-a-poke.

1340442177_91ETCb.JPG.13d76f6bed0c0e8435fe5f194a5e3aba.JPG754325820_91ETC2.JPG.6f976a240f1e3ed1d5024ad1202ac353.JPG

Edited by 4.9FWDfan
additional info added

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Very sharp looking. 

Not too many like that left. 

Honestly even if it has a transmission issue, if the price is not crazy it may be worthwhile if you have to get it rebuilt.

I wonder if those wheels are original. They look like the Concours wheels.

Very nice


GM FAN FOREVER

Nice, clean, luxury= fine automobile

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21 hours ago, rockfangd said:

Very sharp looking. 

Not too many like that left. 

Honestly even if it has a transmission issue, if the price is not crazy it may be worthwhile if you have to get it rebuilt.

I wonder if those wheels are original. They look like the Concours wheels.

Very nice

I thought so too. I also thought the wheels were from a later model ... you nailed it. They work on the car I think.

Lets say this - I would own the car in a minute at the price he's asking if this issue wasn't there. The inside is just as nice.

I must say (having owned a Lincoln Mark vii with the digital dash) - the dash on this thing is absolutely stunning. the characters are SUPER bright and sharp. Heck of a lightshow when you turn the key too (bulb test). Even the idiot lights are nice to look at. It is an impressive car in general.

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I agree there. Those liquid fluorescent dashes of that era were incredible 


GM FAN FOREVER

Nice, clean, luxury= fine automobile

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On 9/7/2019 at 11:36 AM, 4.9FWDfan said:

Is this a real possibility? Like I said, I didn't feel this at all when accelerating or cruising at speed. Ahh ... I see what you're getting at. The brake switch is what unlocks the torque converter. But shouldn't this only (theoretically) be a factor in 3rd or 4th gear?

Maybe if you feel "lurching" when stopped and in gear maybe the converter is locking and unlocking at idle in gear?

To rule out the ABS pull the main ABS fuse under the hood or fuse center.

If lurching is gone then a $6 dollar brake switch is what I would try next.

Did U get the codes? 

My old girl lurches sometimes in gear too. 

I figure old age but she runs like a watch!


93 DeVille-13 Chevy Impala

72 GTO - 77 Triumph Bonneville

84 Z-28

Syracuse NY

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20 hours ago, sonjaab said:

Did U get the codes? 

My old girl lurches sometimes in gear too. 

I figure old age but she runs like a watch!

I did get codes but there was nothing there of any use. Battery had crapped out on the car and wiped everything clean and it hasn't been driven far enough to trigger any since. The only codes present were ones regarding the computers being "reset" (due to said dead battery) and Twilight Sentinel. Love how the old girl actually monitors that.

Do you know why your car is doing this?

Duly noted regarding the brake and ABS relay by the way.

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3 hours ago, 4.9FWDfan said:

Do you know why your car is doing this?

No!  But it dont do it that often and the tranny shifts fine so I figure its just gettin old.

But its been back and forth to Fla. twice, did a NY to Maine, jersey and back to NY.

I put almost 15k miles on it in 10 months!

Just do your homework before u whip out the ca$h money as old Caddy buyer with CA$H

money are sorta few and far between and its a buyers market with them IMO!

Now If was a Chevy Malibu or similar they sell quick for big money with a lot of excuses!

They aRE a different story!

 

Edited by sonjaab

93 DeVille-13 Chevy Impala

72 GTO - 77 Triumph Bonneville

84 Z-28

Syracuse NY

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BTW:  How much does he want for the car?

I paid $3000 for my 93 Deville 91k miles not a scratch or wear anywhere!

The guy had it for sale for a YEAR and wanted $5000 !

 

Edited by sonjaab

93 DeVille-13 Chevy Impala

72 GTO - 77 Triumph Bonneville

84 Z-28

Syracuse NY

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2 hours ago, sonjaab said:

BTW:  How much does he want for the car?

I paid $3000 for my 93 Deville 91k miles not a scratch or wear anywhere!

The guy had it for sale for a YEAR and wanted $5000 !

 

 

2 hours ago, sonjaab said:

Just do your homework before u whip out the ca$h money as old Caddy buyer with CA$Hmoney are sorta few and far between and its a buyers market with them IMO!

I am trying! 🏁

What kind of mileage is on your ride now?

How long ago did you pick it up (just curious).

He's asking 4K (Canadian) so around 3 grand US. Car is super clean except for one rust spot up under the door molding on the driver's side.

Underside is darn near mint which is saying something when you're on the rust belt.

I would have bought it right away in all honesty if it didn't give me the weird vibe on the test drive. Really sweet car. Lots of character.

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Its got 106k miles now.

I bought it in Dec.

4k Can. $ huh?

4.5 engine?

Not too bad as long as its clean and not a rustbucket


93 DeVille-13 Chevy Impala

72 GTO - 77 Triumph Bonneville

84 Z-28

Syracuse NY

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