Dealer and Sealant Pellets

[KHE]

Does GM have some sort of "quality control" on their dealerships?

taking into account all these stories about dealerships the only control GM may practice is "damage control"

Uh...no....it's the other way around. We service personnel have to spend all our time performing "damage control" for the increasingly ****** product that GM is putting out. Come work with me for a couple of weeks.....get away from the rarified air of this "everying Cadillac is perfect" forum and you will change your tune real quick.

Ian

My local dealer is for the most part, decent. When my '96 Seville's water pump needed replacement, I had them quote the job as I didn't have the special tool. Their price was $425 and when I asked them why it was so much money, I received the line, "Those Northstars are tough to work on..."

That was the biggest bunch of BS.... I rented the tool from Bruce on this site and did the job in 1-1/2 hours. It was by far the easiest water pump I have EVER replaced. That job should have been $150 not $425! An experienced tech. could have replaced the pump in an hour or less and the part cost was $70.

I have read stories on this forum where Caddy owners were charged $700+ for replacing the blower motor. While this job is not as easy as the water pump, it can be done in 2 hours and the HVAC case does not need to be cut nor does the engine need to be lowered...

[shiden_kai]

That was the biggest bunch of BS.... I rented the tool from Bruce on this site and did the job in 1-1/2 hours.  It was by far the easiest water pump I have EVER replaced.  That job should have been $150 not $425!  An experienced tech. could have replaced the pump in an hour or less and the part cost was $70.

I have read stories on this forum where Caddy owners were charged $700+ for replacing the blower motor.  While this job is not as easy as the water pump, it can be done in 2 hours and the HVAC case does not need to be cut nor does the engine need to be lowered...

I guess you haven't done that many water pumps then, cause I can think of many other water pumps that are easier then the Northstar. Having said that, obviously the dealer was overcharging for labour. We usually charge the book time which is around 1.6-1.8 hrs.

Maybe the dealership was tired of getting paid 11.7 hrs to do casehalf seals under warranty! I'll rent you the special tools for that job if you want, and see if you

can get that done in even 25 hrs! Hell, I'd put out a standing bet that no Cadillac engineer could do "that" job in "that" time. Especially, if they follow the service manual procedure on how to do it.

Ian

[KHE]

I've done a fair share of water pumps - since I keep my cars for a long time, eventually, I need to replace a water pump among other repairs.

If the dealer is tired of only getting paid for "half" of a case half reseal, they need to take that up with GM, not gouge other customers on other more simple repairs.

I seem to remember that you developed a technique in the case half seal where you could actually beat the rate established by GM.

[JohnnyG]

I think Shiden Kia has finally hit on the real issue here. You can't have good service or techs if you are going to quote unrealistic "book rates" for repairs. The dealerships cannot be footing the bill for GM's design errors. This is obviously where a great deal of their time is going. Once a known issue is discovered, such as Northstar case half leaks, or head gasket failures requiring the installation of time serts, a revision of the book rates should be immediately instituted. Of coures it all revolves around greed at that point. Many dealers would then see the new times as pure profit, and begin telling every owner bringing his car in for service that new repairs are needed.

Just like the dealership telling the oil change guys to put in 8 quarts of oil. It's like putting money in the bank! It almost gurantees that the customer will be back for excessive oil consumption complaints very soon.

I had a hard time realizing why other "aquaintences" I've talked with nearly "fell out of their chair, laughing" when I proudly told them that the Northstar is designed to run 300,000 miles. It finally dawned on me, you can design an engine to run 1,000,000 miles and if you do not somehow ensure that it is going to be serviced correctly, you have wasted your money. If you continue to stack the deck againt yourself, you are doomed to failure.

Next time, buy the "DUMMY PROOF" Camry, or Lexus. It may not be the best engineered engine in the world, but these days (and probably always) simple is better.

[KHE]

  Next time, buy the "DUMMY PROOF" Camry, or Lexus. It may not be the best engineered engine in the world, but these days (and probably always) simple is better.

Ask a Lexus owner how simple and inexpensive the replacement of the timing belt is....

[JohnnyG]

That's not the point at all. Everybody here knows that they are not "safe" engines, and that a broken belt will trash one in a heartbeat. The point is, there is very little that a service guy or oil change dummy can do to acclerate that failure. In the case of the Northstar, there seems to be plenty of innocent looking activities that can be done improperly to maximize the dealers profits. "Dummy Proof" has its roots in a basic concept, one that Henry Ford knew well....and his cars got quite a reputation for reliability. KISS

PS, it rarely happens, if ever, but let a timing chain break on a N* and your wallet would be in the same predicament.

[shiden_kai]

If the dealer is tired of only getting paid for "half" of a case half reseal, they need to take that up with GM, not gouge other customers on other more simple repairs.

I seem to remember that you developed a technique in the case half seal where you could actually beat the rate established by GM.

Oh, absolutely, I couldn't agree with you more. There is no reason to "take it out" on the customer. Unfortunately, "taking it up with GM" is an exercise in futility, so you have to figure out how to beat em. Listen, when you think about it, we "take it out" on the paying customer all the time anyway. "Customer pay" times are usually rated at 1.4 X the warranty rates. Usually, by the time a particular job becomes "customer pay" we've already figured out how to beat or meet the warranty time, and so the extra 40-50% labour time is gravy on top.

Our shop is fairly strict about quoting times. We cannot just pull times out of the air because we are getting the short stick on some other labour operation. But I can well imagine that other dealerships may do this. Because it's a Cadillac, often you have a captive customer market, as very few other shops will touch these cars. So, some dealerships will just bend the Cadillac customer over once the vehicle is off warranty.

And yes, I can beat the flat rate on case halves quite handily. I can do an old style that pays 11.7 hrs in about 7.5 hrs. The other style pays 15.7 so now I'm doubling my time....and then customer pay is in the 18-20 hr range. So I make out like a bandit, but frankly, I'm the only one in our shop that can do it in these times. And unless the shop is slow, I'm not real crazy about doing these jobs, as my body takes a beating doing this job.

Ian

[mike5514]

I guess things never change I worked for a dealership years ago and the service mechanics would complain about the time allowed for a job. The service manager would complain about the factory reps coming in and throwing out some of the warenty repairs. In 83 I bought a used buick from a buick dealer and during the negotiations the salesman walked me back to the service area to show me the service bay I was in shock, there was a zillion dollars in equipment back there. First thing I thought was I cant afford to bring my car here for repair they will have to charge me 500 bucks just to pay for this equipment. They only schedule so many people in a day so you are going to have to pay your share no matter how miner you problem is. Dealer service depts. make me nervious they are like hospitals you are not completely sure you are going to get out alive. Mike

[rmac-etc]

I have read stories on this forum where Caddy owners were charged $700+ for replacing the blower motor. While this job is not as easy as the water pump, it can be done in 2 hours and the HVAC case does not need to be cut nor does the engine need to be lowered...

I have read posts where the blower was replaces without cutting or lowering, but on my 95 etc, that would not have worked. I was able to remove the blower by damaging the fan, but there was no way to put the new one in without cutting the case or lowering the engine. I cut the case and used aluminum duct tape to seal it up. It has worked well since and was relatively easy to do. .... not to justify the dealer estimates, just documenting my experience. No way it should take a dealer professional mechanic more than 1 hr.

[KHE]

I have read stories on this forum where Caddy owners were charged $700+ for replacing the blower motor. While this job is not as easy as the water pump, it can be done in 2 hours and the HVAC case does not need to be cut nor does the engine need to be lowered...

I have read posts where the blower was replaces without cutting or lowering, but on my 95 etc, that would not have worked. I was able to remove the blower by damaging the fan, but there was no way to put the new one in without cutting the case or lowering the engine. I cut the case and used aluminum duct tape to seal it up. It has worked well since and was relatively easy to do. .... not to justify the dealer estimates, just documenting my experience. No way it should take a dealer professional mechanic more than 1 hr.

I replaced the blower motor in my '96 SLS two years ago and did not need to cut the housing or lower the engine. The trick is to remove the inertial plate and rotate the blower motor so the narrowest portion of the mounting flange is toward the cam cover. The unit can then be removed.

I'm not sure how different the Eldorado is from the Seville but the blower area should be the same.

[eldoman95]

Has anyone considered that by telling people not to use the coolant supplement that they are insuring themselves future work?

How about the dealers that we have heard do the head gaskets and not time-sert the engine?

I can't take the egos in the dealers. They think their SH** don't stink. I simply walked in and said, I would like my AC recharged, a simple request I think, don't you? He asked what year is the car, I replied 96 Deville, he said, at that age you probably have a LEAK and may need a compressor it could cost hundreds.... You will have to leave the car.... I was like, all I want you to do is recharge my AC! Thats ALL I asked. If you would LIKE to do a leak test by all means DO IT.. But all I want is a recharge... Well I would have to leave it we will call you when its ready, with an attitude!!.... I checked with this site (bbobynski) and found out how to recharge it, bought 2 cans of freon a guage, and $30 later, BAM!, code gone, AC chillin! What A-holes they are I'm sorry... I can walk in off the street to MOST AC / Radiator shops and have my AC evacuated and recharged almost immediatly and the dealer pushes the panic button!!! If I was a CADDY honcho, I would find a way to clean house of these spoiled brat egotists with attitudes.

i hate dealers! that being said, scott, how did you recharge your a/c... i need mine done, correction, want mine done, it still 40 degrees and cloudy.

[adallak]

i hate dealers! that being said, scott, how did you recharge your a/c... i need mine done, correction, want mine done, it still 40 degrees and cloudy.

95 Eldo... at that age you probably have a LEAK and may need a compressor it could cost hundreds....