Dealer and Sealant Pellets

[rek]

"Why would you have to do all of this to have your car repaired, arent you paying for quality work?" I do "all this" to insure that I get quality work. The work was done under warranty. No excuses,(On their part) problem well defined (AVO-Avoid Verbal Orders) known corporate solution(TSB's), Goodwill (Donuts).

[Brad]

Well, since I started this little thread that has become a three-headed monster, I figure I should chime in and let you know the result! LOL

Bought the sealant pellets from the parts counter and added them to upper radiator hose. All is now right with the world...LOL

Fire away boys!

[Bob D]

Perhaps with the rise of the internet, we users will eventually find a forum wherein we can publicly rate dealers.

>"That may have its dangers as well."<

I'm curious...how's that?

It would facilitate public criticism of dealers by those not necessarily qualified to judge the dealers' performance. People who feel they have been ripped off by dealers are an angry bunch, and often vindictive.

Yes, the First Amendment tends to make some types uneasy...

And who's to judge who's qualified to criticize a potentially recalcitrant dealer?? The dealer himself? A dealer appointed committee?

It's the person who feels they've been "ripped off" that has every right to use whatever forum at hand to investigate, become qualified and to be heard, hopefully an ethical outcome may be achieved. If that asset happens to be the internet in the twenty-first century, more power to us!

Yes, the customer can be "angry", and even "vindictive" (which are two subjective terms..) Perhaps the combination, depending on the delivery will right a wrong, which we all know occurs way too often.

When the little guy (the consumer) takes on 'city hall' (in this case a dealership),in what appears to be a legitimate cause, be reasonable, but load for bear. Use all avenues open to you.

[JasonA]

To reiterate, I don't think any of us are surprised that some dealers are scum. We know they're independent dealers and have agendas of their own. We know they have their own business practices just like we have ours. We know that they'll do anything to put the responsibility on the customer, just like you said, bill.

We're just surprised that GM apparently doesn't care, that's all.

[rjhat]

I'm no professional mechanic, but i feel that if your a service manager at a dealership, you should know the car you specialize in very well. Especially what fluids and additives it requires!

[ol'albert]

GM's procedure when I questioned a dealer's conclusions, was to take down my phone number etc and phone the dealer, talk to the service personell, then phone me back and say that the dealer said that the car was performing to specifications.

Consequently I gave up on the fix and just live with the problem. That was months ago.

I still love the car. I have been asked by passengers how I manage to read those dim displays on the radio, and I just tell them that GM says they are to specifications. I doubt that ecourages them to buy a Cadillac, though.

I have no gripe with the dealer. He thinks he is right, otherwise he would be trying to fix it. I think he is a competent and honourable businessman. He did phone GM about it for advice before telling me it was OK that way.

The important thing is that just about everyone has had, or knows someone who has had, simillar problems with domestic automakers.

Disgruntled Cadillac (or Chevrolet, or Oldsmobile or...) customers are GM's problem, and GM should, in their own interest, solve it. I do not want to solve my problem with my Cadillac by buying a Lincon or a Benz. I want to solve my problem with the car I drive and with the carmaker who (through its dealer network) sold it to me.

Dealers will not be improved by organized customer disparagement. They would be improved PDQ if GM set and enforced performance standards and established a process to evaluate unresolved customer complaints outside of the offending dealer's facility. Perhaps they are too busy trying to figure out why their sales are dropping away to the imports.

[Jim in Phoenix]

Back in the 50's, long story, I took a trip from Los Angeles to see my girl (now my wife) in Minnesota. I was driving a '51 Chrysler hemi and I had just done a tune up on it and was cruising high and wide! I got about 1000 miles and it started to misfire very slightly. by the time I got to Nebraska, it would idle but not make any power, top speed was about 30 mph. I checked the fuel and the spark and the points and I couldn't find the problem. I found an independent garage and he wanted to put a new distributor in it. I told him to push it back out in the street.

I got to Lincoln and pulled it into the Chrysler dealer where they had it in the shop for about 5 hours. They checked a lot of stuff but all I remember is they put in their new plugs, and they wrapped the plug wires with black tape and it cost me $89 parts and labor. We rolled it out and went for a test drive and it ran pretty strong. But 15 minutes after I hit the road it was running like crap again. I stopped in a little town and they had a one man shop run by an old guy. He says " did you change the condenser when you did the tune up, if they're gonna fail it will be in the first 1000 mies"!

Yup! I still had the old one in my tool box and when I popped it in my troubles were gone! An 89 cent NEW part had failed and cost me much time and consternation. It was defective but the engine heat caused it to deteriorate.

Now $89 was a lot of money for a Sailor and I swore I would never put myself in a position where I had to pay a shop or a dealer to troubleshoot my cars' problems.

Every car I buy, I get a factory shop manual for it. On the few occasions where I took a car in for warranty service, I knew more about what was wrong, and what it would take to fix it, than the service writer did.

The closest I have come to be screwed in 45 years is when they did the Northstar pan oil leak, and some other stuff that I had listed, which came to about $2500. The warranty paid for that but they got me for about $550 to replace all the coolant hoses, thermostat, radiator cap ( a good idea after 6 plus years in Arizona), then flush the coolant system and the transmission. Yea, they got me but I was feeling so good about the warranty work that I let them get in my pocket.

I have worked on everything from a 47 Chevy to my ETC, and overhauled 3 Mercedes diesels, maybe 10 gas engines, including that Hemi! You CAN fix computer related problems if you study the troubleshooting ladders, and you don't need special analysers.

Somebody famous made my point when they said " Knowledge is power!". It works for me!

Jim in Phoenix

[ROCKnROLL]

GM and the other domestics learned how to build better cars from the imports so why don't they take another page from their book and restructure their dealerships?

so the decision is whether i want to buy from an import that builds great cars and give their customers great service or buy from GM that builds good cars and makes customer service a crap shoot.

[Bob D]

Somebody famous made my point when they said " Knowledge is power!". It works for me!

Jim in Phoenix

One of my all time favorite sayings Jim..(but I'm not the guy that made it famous..LOL) In fact, I've also used it here once or twice over the years indentifying the fact of how powerful this forum can be, when needed.

[JasonA]

GM and the other domestics are hamstrung with their existing dealer network and dealer contracts that have evolved over the years. The imports and transplants write their own rules wiht their dealers as they are starting from scratch with their dealer network and what the dealer contracts require.

This is where I think GM could be doing a different job -- contracts can't be forever. When it's time to renegotiate the contract, change the terms...write in some QA/QC. But again, I'm not an automotive industry lawyer, so I don't know the intricacies of the system. But from my little experience on this earth, there's always a way around something. I think that if GM really wanted to start auditing their dealerships, there would be a way for them to do it.

[Scotty]

Back in the 50's, long story, I took a trip from Los Angeles to see my girl (now my wife) in Minnesota. I was driving a '51 Chrysler hemi and I had just done a tune up on it and was cruising high and wide! I got about 1000 miles and it started to misfire very slightly. by the time I got to Nebraska, it would idle but not make any power, top speed was about 30 mph. I checked the fuel and the spark and the points and I couldn't find the problem. I found an independent garage and he wanted to put a new distributor in it. I told him to push it back out in the street.

I got to Lincoln and pulled it into the Chrysler dealer where they had it in the shop for about 5 hours. They checked a lot of stuff but all I remember is they put in their new plugs, and they wrapped the plug wires with black tape and it cost me $89 parts and labor. We rolled it out and went for a test drive and it ran pretty strong. But 15 minutes after I hit the road it was running like crap again. I stopped in a little town and they had a one man shop run by an old guy. He says " did you change the condenser when you did the tune up, if they're gonna fail it will be in the first 1000 mies"!

Yup! I still had the old one in my tool box and when I popped it in my troubles were gone! An 89 cent NEW part had failed and cost me much time and consternation. It was defective but the engine heat caused it to deteriorate.

Now $89 was a lot of money for a Sailor and I swore I would never put myself in a position where I had to pay a shop or a dealer to troubleshoot my cars' problems.

Every car I buy, I get a factory shop manual for it. On the few occasions where I took a car in for warranty service, I knew more about what was wrong, and what it would take to fix it, than the service writer did.

The closest I have come to be screwed in 45 years is when they did the Northstar pan oil leak, and some other stuff that I had listed, which came to about $2500. The warranty paid for that but they got me for about $550 to replace all the coolant hoses, thermostat, radiator cap ( a good idea after 6 plus years in Arizona), then flush the coolant system and the transmission. Yea, they got me but I was feeling so good about the warranty work that I let them get in my pocket.

I have worked on everything from a 47 Chevy to my ETC, and overhauled 3 Mercedes diesels, maybe 10 gas engines, including that Hemi! You CAN fix computer related problems if you study the troubleshooting ladders, and you don't need special analysers.

Somebody famous made my point when they said " Knowledge is power!". It works for me!

Jim in Phoenix

Jim I agree 100%! Could not have said it better! Buy the manual it makes good bathroom and bedtime reading. I believe if you can READ you can fix it!

I have a similar story, we had a new used 64 Caddy Coupe, with about 35,000 miles, and we were driving from Phila. to Cape Cod, and it was misfiring worse and worse as we drove, jerking really bad and laboring. When we got there, our house was on the beach. In pitch dark, I went out and lifted the hood, and it was a largest light show I had ever seen, arching everywhere, I replaced the wires tht next day and that 429 ci purred like a kitten. I was 15 at the time and my Dad was really happy! Mike

[tjtjwdad]

OK I'm confused regarding these coolant suppliments ... pellets or what ever there called. This is the first car I have ever owned that has the Orange ... Pink or non-green antifreeze. I presume just changing the anti freeze at the required time isn't enough and these suppliments have to be added. Don't ever recall of doing that with my other vehicles and I change the antifreeze pretty frequently.

Also, I never see Cadillac manuals (shop/maintenance) laying around. Where is the best place to get some and who manufactures them?

Also nice story about the condenser, I have seen that happen as well as a 2.00 fuel filter causing havoc.

Jim White

[Scotty]

Also, I never see Cadillac manuals (shop/maintenance) laying around. Where is the best place to get some and who manufactures them?

Go to www.helminc.com and find the manual for your car. Lots of people think that HELM is expensive, I prefer them however! You can also check on EBAY, Mike

PS do a search under COOLING SUPPLEMENT, there has been a lot of information posted about them. This post states that only the 4.9 engine needs them and not the NS, if you check above you will see that one of our experts recommends them in the NS as well. I think he recommends 3 pellets.. You can buy them very easily at the parts counter, and I have seen them in Pep Boys and other places, but you can easily get them at the dealer. Mike

[tjtjwdad]

Thanks Scotty!

Jim White

[tjtjwdad]

Chances are this is your first car with an all aluminum engine...???

It is. I have had cars with aluminum heads but this the only all aluminum engine I've had.

Thanks for explaining. I know it seems like you repeat yourself quite a bit but I do appreciate it. Also, what is the symbol that is in your signature area of your post. Looks interesting.

Thanks Again!

Jim White

[Bob D]

[Just getting a little "help" from my "friends" on this forum looks like.....LOL

Well, at least you haven't 'sang out of tune'...you'll get by...

[theGman]

Have you guys read about the DexCool lawsuits ref the pellets?

You can find it on the Impala SS forum/search. Makes you wonder some.

[Ranger]

Have you guys read about the DexCool lawsuits ref the pellets?

You can find it on the Impala SS forum/search. Makes you wonder some.

Yes, I have just recently read something about that. It does peak the curiousity.

[JasonA]

Here's some information about it:

http://www.imcool.com/articles/antifreeze-...ol-macs2001.htm

I read a little bit on impalassforums.com. It's all hogwash. Those guys seem to be complaining about having to use extended life antifreeze products, and claim that their warranties are denied if other coolants are used. Duh! The point of DEX-COOL is to keep silicates OUT of the cooling system, and when you add green coolant, all you're doing is adding them back in. Of course your warranty is going to be voided in that instance! And then they were engineering this concoction of a coolant to use instead of DEX-COOL. We all know where you get when you try to re-engineer that which was correct in the first place: nowhere!

The controversy about DEX-COOL in 4.3L V-6 engines (and thusly in the 350 V-8 engine too I would suppose) is when the coolant level is not maintained. The engine goes close to overheating and the radiator cap starts to fail. If I understand the situation clearly, the cooling system supplement tabs are merely protecting the cooling system from catastrophically leaking at the radiator cap and when the technician starts to diagnose the car for an overheating problem, he or she discovers all this mess on the radiator cap and points to that as the problem.

As usual, the lawsuit probably resulted from mis-informed people complaining about a problem they may have caused! DEX-COOL is a tried-and-true product (especially in our Cadillac cars) and never have any DEX-COOL related problems been reported here. Bbobynski has kept us well aware of the proper maintenance procedure for the coolant and for the supplement tabs and when used correctly, I believe they're a great package.

[00STS]

I had my Dexcool changed yesterday and asked my mechanic to add the GM tablets. He told me they are not necessary according to the GM service bulletin he printed out for me and recommended I not add them. I have only included some sections of the bulletin below:

"2000 Cadillac Seville STS V8-279 4.6L DOHC VIN 9 SFI

Cooling System: All Technical Service Bulletins

Engine Coolant - Information

Date: August 2000

Sealing Tablets

Sealing tablets are not used at the assembly plant for most models. Sealing tablets are generally not necessary and should not be used as a regular maintenance item after servicing an engine cooling system. The use of sealing tablets can, in some cases, produce contamination of the cooling system and/or severe discoloration of coolant"

I have unsuccessfully tried to find reference to this service bulletin elsewhere on the forum. Despite this bulletin is the general consensus that the tablets are necessary to prevent head gasket leaks etc. Is there a later bulletin? If I am to add the tablets now I would probably prefer to add them to the upper hose to minimize the loss of the coolant....would this be ok or is there a better way?

TIA,

00STS

[Ranger]

upper hose will be fine. That is the way I did mine. Like you said. Less coolant loss. Just don't put them in the surge tank.

I would still use them. Anything recommended by an engineer who worked on the engine is good enough for me. Does make you wonder why the TSB though?

Discoloration won't hurt a thing unless you don't know they are in there and then misdiagnose a problem because of the color. BTW, they won't prevent head gasket leaks. They are meant so seal porous castings but may also seal other minor leaks such as crossover gaskets, throttlebody gaskets, etc.

[shiden_kai]

Keep in mind that dealers are independent business men....they are not GM personnel. They sell and service GM products....but.....they are independent businesses.

This is true.  But at the same time, they are GM's only public representatives to the consumer public and they're really making themselves (and probably GM in many cases) look like a bunch of chumps!  We on this board are (obviously) fans of the Cadillac marque and we can separate engineering and design from dealership service and sales practices, but many "point A to B" folks out there probably can't.  Does GM have some sort of "quality control" on their dealerships?  If not, they'd probably be surprised just what their dealerships are telling people.

I know GM has some sort of training that all their techs and service advisors go through...but how does the newest information come down the pike, and is there an SOP to keep that information reviewable somehow?  For instance...the supplement tab issue.  Obviously, it was needed in earlier cars and 4.9L engines.  Sometime in the late 1990s, they decided that it wouldn't be factory-installed anymore.  I'm sure there was some sort of literature distributed to the dealers regarding this.  I don't know, however, where the service guy is making the (false) connection beween the factory quitting the supplement tabs and them clogging the heater core somehow.  I guess these guys are as vulnerable to wild rumors as the rest of us human beings are.  They probably look at all the hate sites like we do...sites which are always plumb full of incorrect information!

Oh, come on, Jason! GM doesn't need our help to make themselves look like chumps. You guys have been brainwashed on this board. We have to work

on the product day in and day out, and there are plenty of problems with

the product.

You mention the seal tabs, in the late models, they don't mention putting

them in the engines, I thought Bill went over that in these forums a while back. Supposedly they don't need them? Anyway, guess what late model engines are doing now more then they used to? "Leaking coolant"...especially from the

water crossover gaskets. Whether this is related to the lack of seal tabs in the newer engines, I don't know. But we are sure repairing a whole lot more of them all of a sudden.

What about all the 2003 models that are very noisy cold? We don't make the things, whoever is making them isn't doing that great of a job right at the moment. Especially for simple things like customer annoyance. Yeah, yeah, we all know that the noise won't hurt anything, but most customers aren't on this board and they want a "quiet" engine. After all, it's a Cadillac. They don't give two hoots about the grand engineering, the low friction, the improved horsepower and fuel economy! They just don't want the thing sounding like my K-car when it starts in the morning.

The Northstar is a great engine, too bad all the little niggling things that are

wrong with it detract from it's reputation. You would think that the engineers

would concentrate on these items like noise, oil consumption, leaks as these

are the items that the customer notices the most.

What's surprising is not always what the service departments are telling the customers, but what GM is telling the "service departments" to tell the customers. Smoke and mirrors most of the time!

Ian

[adallak]

Does GM have some sort of "quality control" on their dealerships?

taking into account all these stories about dealerships the only control GM may practice is "damage control"

[shiden_kai]

I have unsuccessfully tried to find reference to this service bulletin elsewhere on the forum. Despite this bulletin is the general consensus that the tablets are necessary to prevent head gasket leaks etc. Is there a later bulletin? If I am to add the tablets now I would probably prefer to add them to the upper hose to minimize the loss of the coolant....would this be ok or is there a better way?

Here is the number of the actual bulletin that deals with sealant tabs.

DEX-COOL Engine Coolant Information #00-06-02-006A - (02/13/2004)

Ian

[shiden_kai]

Does GM have some sort of "quality control" on their dealerships?

taking into account all these stories about dealerships the only control GM may practice is "damage control"

Uh...no....it's the other way around. We service personnel have to spend all our time performing "damage control" for the increasingly ****** product that GM is putting out. Come work with me for a couple of weeks.....get away from the rarified air of this "everying Cadillac is perfect" forum and you will change your tune real quick.

Ian