Dealer and Sealant Pellets

[Brad]

Took my car in for service this morning for a few tweaks here and there. I additionally wanted them to change the coolant as it is time for it to be done. I ask the service writer if they use the sealant pellets and I was told no, that they were for the 4.9 engine and not my '99 Northstar.

Now, as we have all seen on this board, it is important to add the sealant pellets/barsleak gold to the lower radiator hose as preventative maintenance. So, I asked if they would add them in my case and I was told no, and that it doesn't need them and that they only clog up the heater core.

Now, from what I have read on this board, it sounds like I got screwed around a bit. Am I ok without the pellets? Don't want to temp fate, but I can't seem to get my point across to the darn service writer.

Good thing it is covered under warranty for a while I guess.

[98Concours]

Brad, you need the pellets, as stated on this board. Looking in my factory service manual for a 98Concours (yours should be the same), it states under Draining and Filling Cooling system: NOTICE: This engine uses DEX-COOL and GM coolant supplement (sealant) P/N 3634621 specificaly designed for use in aluminum engines. Failure to use the engine coolant supplement (sealant) and the approved coolant antifreeze could result in major engine damage. When refilling the cooling system, add three pellets of the engine coolant supplement sealant GM P/N 3634621 to the lower radiator hose.

This is directly out of the factory service manual. Have your dealer read the manual! If they still won't put in the pellets, go to WalMart or an auto supply store and buy a tube of barsleak powder and put it in the upper radiator hose. That one is easy to get to. You'll only loose a little antifreeze and you can top it off with DexCool and distilled water, 50/50.

Jeff

[KHE]

Took my car in for service this morning for a few tweaks here and there. I additionally wanted them to change the coolant as it is time for it to be done. I ask the service writer if they use the sealant pellets and I was told no, that they were for the 4.9 engine and not my '99 Northstar.

Now, as we have all seen on this board, it is important to add the sealant pellets/barsleak gold to the lower radiator hose as preventative maintenance. So, I asked if they would add them in my case and I was told no, and that it doesn't need them and that they only clog up the heater core.

Now, from what I have read on this board, it sounds like I got screwed around a bit. Am I ok without the pellets? Don't want to temp fate, but I can't seem to get my point across to the darn service writer.

Good thing it is covered under warranty for a while I guess.

The sealant pellets will NOT clog the heater core...unless you put 25 or 30 of them in there.

I would do as Jeff suggested and add them to the top radiator hose. Do not add them to the surge tank.

[Bob D]

Took my car in for service this morning for a few tweaks here and there. I additionally wanted them to change the coolant as it is time for it to be done. I ask the service writer if they use the sealant pellets and I was told no, that they were for the 4.9 engine and not my '99 Northstar.

Now, as we have all seen on this board, it is important to add the sealant pellets/barsleak gold to the lower radiator hose as preventative maintenance. So, I asked if they would add them in my case and I was told no, and that it doesn't need them and that they only clog up the heater core.

Now, from what I have read on this board, it sounds like I got screwed around a bit. Am I ok without the pellets? Don't want to temp fate, but I can't seem to get my point across to the darn service writer.

Good thing it is covered under warranty for a while I guess.

I can't believe how obstinate some of these dealer's service managers can be...(I asuume that's who you were dealing with?) They are either busy and irresponsible which is irritating, of truly ignorant which is really scary.

It would be interesting to take '98's information from the manual back to the same guy, and see his reaction...

In any case, for something that is so fundamentally important to our engine's design, it's inexcuseable. After setting him straight, I would just walk away. You don't want guys like that in charge of the service for such an advanced design.

A '62 VW maybe...a Cadillac..no way.

[98Concours]

If you want your dealer to look it up, tell him it's in the 1998 GM Service Manual, 2nd Edition, Volume 3 of 3, section 6, page 234.

Even if you can get them to say they'll put the pellets in, how can you be sure they'll do it? I'd do it myself if I were you, providing you have a garage or other warm place to do it.

Jeff

[JasonA]

Boy, the dealers are just about batting 1000 this week, aren't they?! First, they tell us that the oil life monitor is bunk, and that it's merely a mileage counter. Then they refuse to add the supplement tabs, on account of them clogging the heater core!! Just when you thought it was safe to bring your baby out of the garage!!! <_>

[Scotty]

Has anyone considered that by telling people not to use the coolant supplement that they are insuring themselves future work?

How about the dealers that we have heard do the head gaskets and not time-sert the engine?

I can't take the egos in the dealers. They think their SH** don't stink. I simply walked in and said, I would like my AC recharged, a simple request I think, don't you? He asked what year is the car, I replied 96 Deville, he said, at that age you probably have a LEAK and may need a compressor it could cost hundreds.... You will have to leave the car.... I was like, all I want you to do is recharge my AC! Thats ALL I asked. If you would LIKE to do a leak test by all means DO IT.. But all I want is a recharge... Well I would have to leave it we will call you when its ready, with an attitude!!.... I checked with this site (bbobynski) and found out how to recharge it, bought 2 cans of freon a guage, and $30 later, BAM!, code gone, AC chillin! What A-holes they are I'm sorry... I can walk in off the street to MOST AC / Radiator shops and have my AC evacuated and recharged almost immediatly and the dealer pushes the panic button!!! If I was a CADDY honcho, I would find a way to clean house of these spoiled brat egotists with attitudes.

[JasonA]

Keep in mind that dealers are independent business men....they are not GM personnel. They sell and service GM products....but.....they are independent businesses.

This is true. But at the same time, they are GM's only public representatives to the consumer public and they're really making themselves (and probably GM in many cases) look like a bunch of chumps! We on this board are (obviously) fans of the Cadillac marque and we can separate engineering and design from dealership service and sales practices, but many "point A to B" folks out there probably can't. Does GM have some sort of "quality control" on their dealerships? If not, they'd probably be surprised just what their dealerships are telling people.

I know GM has some sort of training that all their techs and service advisors go through...but how does the newest information come down the pike, and is there an SOP to keep that information reviewable somehow? For instance...the supplement tab issue. Obviously, it was needed in earlier cars and 4.9L engines. Sometime in the late 1990s, they decided that it wouldn't be factory-installed anymore. I'm sure there was some sort of literature distributed to the dealers regarding this. I don't know, however, where the service guy is making the (false) connection beween the factory quitting the supplement tabs and them clogging the heater core somehow. I guess these guys are as vulnerable to wild rumors as the rest of us human beings are. They probably look at all the hate sites like we do...sites which are always plumb full of incorrect information!

[Bob D]

Keep in mind that dealers are independent business men....they are not GM personnel. They sell and service GM products....but.....they are independent businesses.

I know, but doesn't it just drive you nuts that products which you've worked hard on for so manyyears to develop,optimize, validate and ultimitely go to market be given a questionable reputation by such unsavory characters? I know this is not the majority of dealers, but it appears to be an adequate amount (off this forum as well..) to be destructive to your (Cadillac's) reputation.

I've worked in r&d, product development and pilot production for years, and it would REALLY get to me to see my, and my company's efforts cast in a bad light because of irreputable people at the market end.

You would think that Cadillac (or any car manufacturer) would have more control over who hangs a shingle out with thier marquie on it...There is a lot at stake here.

...Or am I just being nieve...?

[98Concours]

Misinformation causes alot of the bad publicity automobile manufacturers face. In Brads case, no pellets per the dealership. Brad drives his car a period of time, then develops a leak here and there. Then the dealership says he needs a new whatever and also needs a new thingamajig. Brad pays to have it fixed. Then a short time later, he needs another thingy. Brad's possibly spent hundreds of dollars needlessly when all he really needed was 2.00 worth of pellets to begin with. Now, Brad thinks Cadillacs are worthless cars.

Jeff

[Scotty]

Keep in mind that dealers are independent business men....they are not GM personnel. They sell and service GM products....but.....they are independent businesses.

While I agree with what you are saying. The unfortunate thing is that THEY are the individuals that are representing GM/Cadillac. I really think that GM should SHOP/TEST these dealers covertly to see how they, 1) diagnose the problem correctly, 2) see if they deal with the customer respectfully, and 3) that they represent GM/Cadillac in the best light. I have had Cadillac mechanics bad mouth their products standing in the Service area. GM is represented by these people, that is unfortunate. I am sure that these guys are union and untouchable and that adds to the problem, but there should be a code of behavior and performance that they have to adhear to. Just my opinion.

[loucar1]

Another Note:

Service Advisors are sales people with little mechanical ability. They are paid to sell service !!

[Ranger]

Another Note:

Service Advisors are sales people with little mechanical ability. They are paid to sell service !!

And there in lies the rub

[ROCKnROLL]

Keep in mind that dealers are independent business men....they are not GM personnel. They sell and service GM products....but.....they are independent businesses.

i don't mean any disrespect, but i can't believe your reply!

i know you work for them but what difference should it matter if they're GM personnel or independent business men? do we not have the right to expect the person to be knowledgable? let me see if i've got this straight. they sell GM products, they service GM products, but they're not GM personnel.

i have a question, who pays these independent business men?

like i said, i'm not trying to be a smartass, i'm just trying to understand your comment.

[JIMDTS]

Hi Bill

Well put about the dealers. I agree 100% with your statements.The dealers do have a high turn over of mechanics from time to time.I think the real good techs after a while go to the inner city dealerships vice the suburban areas where most of the cars are older and off warranty and get good prices for the repairs.I know most dealers really don't like warranty work they would prefer customer paid work but it all adds up. I imagine that one of the hardest parts of the service managers job is delegating the warranty work over the so called gravy jobs(customer paid).Most of the time the new guys get the warranty work and if they get too many they just leave and find another dealer or shop..

Cheers

Jim

[Bob*97 SLS]

The dealerships are franchises. You can buy one like you would a McDonalds hamburgers! So, you don't have to be employed by GM to have one. If you can buy it, you got it if the area is right for you having one there!

[JimD]

"i have a question, who pays these independent business men?"

They are 'paid' by the same people who pay your local BMW dealer, or tire dealer, or hardware outlet, or newspaper delivery person, or fill-in-the-blank business. YOU pay them.

[JasonA]

Compare a car dealer to a MacDonalds.... the store owner buys a Macs franchise and sets up a store. Some Macs are good (fast, organized, clean, etc...) others are dumps. They are all "MacDonalds" though. How does MacDonalds corporate control this?? How can GM control what happens in every dealership every day..??

GM can control what happens in a dealership simply by showing up!

I got my very first "real job" (meaning something I got a W-2 for) at the age of 15 working at a McDonald's and I can tell you that you absolutely have a standard to keep your store at, or you loose your franchise! McDonald's corporate weenies would come around with their little check lists and clip boards and even talk to some of the employees. They would look in every corner of the store and sample a lot of the food (before introducing themselves as corporate suits). This was back in the 1990s when I worked there (for a whole 2 months!), but I imagine the same contractual situation exists today.

This is what I assumed would go on in the case of the dealership-factory relationship. I think we all realize that the dealerships are independent, but just because they're independent, that doesn't mean GM can't have language in the contract that denies them access to the place for inspections or quality control if they so desire. Obviously I'm not an expert in automotive industry law, so maybe GM can't legally do that. My point was (and I'm sure this matches that of others) that the dealerships are murdering the reputation of the corporate office with poor service practices and I would think GM would have an interest in knowing and controlling that. Do you know, bill, how the contracts work with GM and their dealers? Or are there contracts at all? Are these dealerships COMPLETELY independent where GM has NO control over them or what they do? I'm surprised that type of business relationship exists. If I were the auto maker, it seems that I'd much rather enter into an agreement similar to the McDonald's situation -- where the franchise has the flexibility to run their stores they way they want to, but are still required to live up to some sort of a standard controlled by me, the corporate office.

I completely agree that there are some good ones and some bad ones out there. When I lived in Virginia, we had a GREAT GM dealer around the corner, Harvey's GM. They only sold and serviced GM vehicles and had the full gauntlet, Chevy, Cad, Olds, Buick, Pontiac, GMC Truck, etc. I'm not nearly as impressed with the local dealership here in Fayetteville, Bryan Cadillac Honda. Yes, they sell two car lines, GM and Honda. Except for the new Honda V-6 in the Saturn Vue, I don't see any logical connection between the two corporate marques. You'd think they'd have to comply with two separate training programs to sell only two car lines, whereas Harveys back in Virginia sells up to 6-7 car lines and only has to run its mechanics through GM's program.

[ol'albert]

I agree with you Rock, in that Guru is not here as a representative of GM, but rather as an invaluable and knowledgible contributor. In fact, his presence on the list makes the dealership problem very much more tolerable. I also empathise with you on our apparent inability to do anything about the problem.

I think that GM is incapable of fixing it to. The dealerships are in control, both of their relationbships with their (GM's) customers, and of the data flow that goes back to GM. It would probably require a suicidal CEO to close in on the problem.

There are some really good ones out there too. I'm on my 5th Cadi right now, and over the years have found and stuck with an excellent one - expensive, but you don't mind paying for competent work.

Perhaps with the rise of the internet, we users will eventually find a forum wherein we can publicly rate dealers. That may have its dangers as well.

[Bob D]

Perhaps with the rise of the internet, we users will eventually find a forum wherein we can publicly rate dealers.

>"That may have its dangers as well."<

I'm curious...how's that?

[growe3]

Well-written Jason.

I think what is needed is a way to get GM, not just the Cadillac division, to include some type of quality control in their dealership franchise agreements. Make sure the dealerships are doing any repair/warranty work properly on the more sophisticated vehicles.

If such an agreement already exists, GM needs to do occasional inspections and contact customers after service or repairs, to review whether the customer was satisfied, happy or not satisfied with the level of service received at the dealership.

If the dealership gets numerous complaints do not allow them to sell GM vehicles. I think this might be a good public relations move and inspire more confidence in American vehicles. One of the comments I hear most often, from others I work with, is a high level of confidence in dealerships of foreign vehicles. Why? The people who work there are from the same community as those who work at GM dealerships. Perhaps it is more quality control at the dealerships, to protect the reputation of the cars they sell.

On a personal level I have a strong distrust of dealerships due to them usually charging a high cost for simple repairs. A current example is very minor paint damage to the rear bumper on my 93 STS (rear-ended while I was waiting for the light to change). I did body and paint work for quite a few years and know this repair will take about two hours including preparations and painting. The dealership has estimated $850 to repair it. As at least some sort of control, Allstate Insurance told them if they want to do the job, the cost will be reduced to $650 (by reducing the labor charge).

While I believe this to still by very high for the work that needs to be done, this is an example of some control, over price in this case, can be exercised on a dealership.

As part of my quality control:

The dealership was only going to repaint a small area and just shoot clearcoat to try and blend the color. I told them that that was not acceptable and I want the complete bumper repainted, so I can be assured of a good color match and not have an obvious spot repair job. They agreed so they will get the job.

-George

[Greg P.]

I have to agree with alot that has been said on here. Poor dealer service was one of the major factors that made me decide to get rid of my last Cadillac (the '99 STS). It might keep me from ever buying another.

Mr. Guru is correct that dealers are independant businessmen, but he is incorrect to suggest that GM has no power to control the quaility of the dealer service. hogwash! Any manufacturer can set STANDARDS of service for their distributors. For some reason, GM seems reluctant to do it. Instead, they feed us this marketing crap about gold key service and the privledges of ownership, but that's all it is, just marketing crap. At the end of the day, the Cadillac owner gets the same crappy service as the Chevrolet or Geo owner.

In my opinion, it is the poor dealer service that will ultimately keep Cadillac from ever re-establishing itself as a world-class marque.

For what its worth, many Cadillac owners (such as myself) are capable of working on our own cars. We just prefer not to.

[ol'albert]

Perhaps with the rise of the internet, we users will eventually find a forum wherein we can publicly rate dealers.

>"That may have its dangers as well."<

I'm curious...how's that?

It would facilitate public criticism of dealers by those not necessarily qualified to judge the dealers' performance. People who feel they have been ripped off by dealers are an angry bunch, and often vindictive.

[rek]

This worked for me most of the time: I called the Zone office and asked if my expectation (refer to TSB per the stated problem and go from there) was realistic. The Zone replied: Your expectation is how your problem should be handled. The TSB's and repair manuals, are designed to aid the Tech in solving your problems. If your problem is not resolved, call back, we'll get involved. So, when I had a problem (with the car) I would research the problem (this board and TSB's). I would go to the dealer with a typed page (of the problem), the applicable TSB's, and DONUTS (bribe, goodwill jesture). I would STERILIZE (as in spotless-exterior, interior, under the hood) the car before i took it in. When I got there I would explain that I was trying to be helpful by supplying the info (save them time), cleaned it all up so they didn't have to get "Dirty",or wash it, and I was a "Car Nut", that treated my car like a person, ( non verbal Hint, don't screw it up, because I will NOTICE. The service writer had a typed page of the problem, as did the Tech (left in car with TSB's). No excuses, problem well defined (AVO-Avoid Verbal Orders) known corporate solution(TSB's), Goodwill (Donuts). I also asked if there was anything else I could do to "Help out". Respect is a two-way street. I try to start out there. If that doesn't work, THEN I drop the "Hammer"...

[loucar1]

REK,

Why would you have to do all of this to have your car repaired, arent you paying for quality work?

I think it all boiles down to one thing...Profit! If the dealer can charge 90 dollars an hour labor for a repair and mark up the price of parts 100%, why wouldn't he?

The real issue here is " Quality" What I'm getting for my money!