Mobile Caddyinfo.com TimeSert Team Input

[petrov]

I finally received the TimeSert kit from Joeb (thank you) almost two weeks ago and I am now trying to gather the parts to complete the job. I have a 93 STS 4.6L Northstar with 254,000KMS that has a four year old tranny. I am looking for help in ensuring I am getting the correct parts list together.

I called the dealer and inquired about the required parts, and here is what my second phone call (I had the VIN this time to give them for cross reference) to them resulted in:

1) Intake Kit [includes cam seals] $168cdn

2) Head gaskets

$87.96cdn each.......first time I called they had the gaskets & bolts included in a kit

3) 10 head bolts $22.94cdn each

4) 10 studs [for the head] $27.62....apparently the dealer can no longer get these - great now what??

Is there any thing else I am missing or maybe can order together under a kit which may save me some money? The price of these new bolts/studs are $$$, anybody reccommend after market or is that a no-no?

Where are you Mobile Team??? If you are in my area soon, it would be my pleasure to entertain you with some cold Canadian beer, token pizza and for desert of course...Canadian Beaver tails!! For those of you that have not experienced these, they are typically served during the winter festival up here and donut shaped like a beaver tail coated with brown sugar & cinnamon. Not only will you enjoy it, so will your dentist!!!

Getting anxious to start this project. I have decided however to let my mechanic handle this task as the cold winter is fast approaching and I do not have a garage!

Thanks all,

Petrov

[BigCat83]

From NAPA I bought HS-54356-A Headgasket set (includes the seal for the WP drive/intake cam) $264.99 USD

and TWO (2) boxes of GS33386 Headbolts (10 per box) at $35.99 ea.

Studs? You don't need studs...?

Buy FOUR NEW cylinder head locating dowels. The originals have to be removed and they can't be re-used AND they are a b!t*h to get out.

I Timeserted my block this past winter. Be carefull, DON"T RUSH IT! Be sure your mechanic follows the instructions implicitly and TAKES NO SHORTCUTS TO SAVE OR MAKE MONEY. If he rushes the job he'll screw it up sure as $h!*. Be sure you have all of your tools! Have you purchased a Kent-Moore flywheel locking tool yet? You can't get the crank pulley bolt out without one. I had to use my IR 250 #ft impact gun with my compressor set at 120 PSI to get mine out! Nothing else touched it! While the heads are off you should replace the 3 heater pipes with hoses that go across the rear of the engine - they get terribly corroded and now would be a good time to replace yours. Also, even though they are supposed to be re-usable you may want to consider buying new gaskets that seal the coolant bypass to the heads (two per head four total). One of mine tore a bit as I removed it and I had to replace it.

As you proceed with your job keep posting here and we'll walk you through the process. The fellows on Caddyinfo helped me out a great deal and we will help you/your mechanic too. Be sure he Timeserts all 20 headbolt holes. I don't know how good or bad your mechanic is or if he has ever Timeserted a Northstar; in any case watch him like a hawk because shortcuts will surely ruin the job.

Good luck!

[KHE]

I used the OEM gasket kit for mine - the kit includes the gasket and the head bolts. You will need a front and rear bank kit. The 6mm bolts in the chaincase area are reusable.

While you have it apart, install new water crossover gaskets as the water pump crossover is a royal SOB to remove with the engine in the car. The gaskets are fairly inexpensive.

[Cadillac Jim]

A good parts source for OEM and good quality aftermarket parts:

http://www.rockauto.com/

A dealer that ships internationally, and is quite adept at getting parts:

http://desimonecadillac.com/

(856) 778-1000, ask for Parts, then ask for Paul

palday#desimonecadillac.com (replace the "#" with an at symbol)

[jcobz28]

The water pump pulley on the camshaft can be very hard to remove if it is an old motor, it can be frozen on there. Do yourself a favor and get a POWER STEERING PULLEY PULLER / INSTALLER SET. Usually you can rent them for free.

Another bonehead move I made... not realizing how the power steering pump comes off. SO simple, just one bolt, but its located in an odd spot. It's on the back left side of the pump housing going into the top of the block. DO NOT try to pull the PS pulley off thinking there are inaccessible bolts behind it which you must get to in order to remove the PS housing. Guess who tried that? =) duh duh duh duh!

I second the above recommendation about needing new dowels. Be VERY careful removing your old ones as to not scratch the block surface. Do a search on here for "dowels" and read prior threads discussing good techniques for removal. Get a rubber mallet to pound the new ones in without damaging them.

I don't remember needing studs. ???

As for the bolts, I got Fel-Pro head bolts (aftermarket), and they are fine.

[BigCat83]

The headgasket set and headbolts I bought from NAPA were Victor Reinz brand. Good so far. When I was doing a lot of work on Alfa Romeos I used a lot of Reinz headgaskets and never had a problem with any of them.

[petrov]

Thanks for the input everyone. I just dropped the car off at the garage with the TimeSert kit (20 inserts) and nice cheater sheet detailing some of the great input pertaining to the trouble spots or issues that need time and attention. This information is invaluable and I greatly appreciate you sharing it as we all know that experience stepping through a repair never matches what is written (or more likely not) in any manual.

It was kind of interesting when I dropped the car off. There were a couple of customers in the waiting room as I came in with manuals/TimeSert kit/cheat notes/plus pulled codes from the car. I began to explain/emphazise the procedure and couldn't help but notice the looks from these other clients...it was like I may have been too much into the car or something. Maybe they were waiting for me to through on the coveralls, grab a big wrench and hit the garage next!! ;-) I do in fact wish I was set up better at home to tackle this job.

I have good faith in my mechanic (we are good friends as well) and I know he will take proper time/care to complete the job for me. He has perfomed a Northstar engine swap before so he is familiar with removals. What I also like is the fact that I may be more informed than most of his customers which makes his job easier and provides me with better car repair results. He anticipates starting early next week on the car.

I am currently working on the parts list right now to see which supplier will give me the majority of the parts for the right price. Looks like NAPA (thanks BigCat) can provide a Head Gasket Set $340cdn & 10 bolts $55cdn (I will order a second box). I will keep you all posted on the progress. I am anxious to see the engine out with the heads removed for inspection.

Almost forgot...the codes that I found were:

P085 - Idle Throttle Angle Too High (probably some deposits need to be cleaned from the throttlebody as it was running quite rough before I parked it)

T061 - Pump Motor or Pump Motor Relay Fault (I hope this is just the relay that needs to be replaced...ABS will not work without this functioning however it has disengaged the traction control therefore easy to spin the tires off the line HAHA. I will look at this after the insert job)

No turning back now!

Ltr,

Petrov

[petrov]

UPDATE: Engine is out on the cradle and the heads have been removed. Two head bolts (around cylinders 5 & 7 rear bank) were stripped and the head gasket was torn which allowed coolant to seep out over the back of the block. The intake was filled with white foamy residue. One thing noted was that this engine had not been Serted before.

Here is a concern that my mechanic noticed: there is corrosion on the cylinder walls along with some slight pitting, should he be worried now about the low end too? I will take some pics Monday and post them. He says he can clean up the cylinders but is worried about the main bearing may have been affected by the corrosion. The coolant mixture was more parts water which also ended up creating chocolate milk out of the oil. I am a little concerned that he wants me to make the descision as to whether the engine is salvageable or not.

I assume since he has the block out of the car there is not much effort to at least inspect the low end...any thoughts? Any suggestions on cleaning or removing the rust from the cylinders and top sprockets??

Thanks all,

Petrov

[KHE]

The oil in my engine looked like coffee with a lot of cream... I didn't touch the lower end but I didn't notice any corrosion either. I did drain all the water/coolant and run the engine for a few minutes dry to purge the water/coolant from the engine. Then I changed the oil (only added 5 quarts to keep the oil level below the level of the front cover) and ran the engine a few minutes to get fresh oil on the bearings. When I got the engine back together and in the car, I topped off the oil and added 1 pt. of GM EOS. The extra ZDP in the EOS will help to repair any areas that may have scuffed/worn. I changed the oil again after 200 miles and it has been fine ever since.

If your case half is leaking, now would be the time to install the revised case half seal with the anerobic sealant as well as replace the oil pan gasket. You will need to separate it from the trans. though which won't be difficult since the powertrain is out of the car.

I wish we still had the guru on the board - I would think the corrosion would clean itself out in short order once the engine is started up.

[joeb]

would you get a used engine or remaned? if you go used, will you timesert it since it will probably have average miles based on its age? i found a number of 100k used motors but was concerned a HG problem would surface if i installed them AS IS. thats a tough call about the oil. how diluted was it? 1 qt of extra liquid or more? makes you wonder about all wear surfaces, like cams, rods and crank journals. my cyls looked fine even though both gaskets had leakage between cyls but i had minimal miles after i started using a lot of cooant and my oil looked fine.

[BigCat83]

Ask your mechanic to pull the main and rod bearing caps and have a look see. If no corrosiojn is present you're cool. If corrosion is present then, perhaps, it's time for a used or reman motor. IF you choose a used motor you should Timesert the block, IMO.

How do the cams look? How does the oil pump measure? If they're all OK chances are the bottom end is as well.

[BigCat83]

Ask your mechanic to pull the main and rod bearing caps and have a look see. If no corrosiojn is present you're cool. If corrosion is present then, perhaps, it's time for a used or reman motor. IF you choose a used motor you should Timesert the block, IMO.

How do the cams look? How does the oil pump measure? If they're all OK chances are the bottom end is as well.

[BodybyFisher]

UPDATE: Engine is out on the cradle and the heads have been removed. Two head bolts (around cylinders 5 & 7 rear bank) were stripped and the head gasket was torn which allowed coolant to seep out over the back of the block. The intake was filled with white foamy residue. One thing noted was that this engine had not been Serted before.

Here is a concern that my mechanic noticed: there is corrosion on the cylinder walls along with some slight pitting, should he be worried now about the low end too? I will take some pics Monday and post them. He says he can clean up the cylinders but is worried about the main bearing may have been affected by the corrosion. The coolant mixture was more parts water which also ended up creating chocolate milk out of the oil. I am a little concerned that he wants me to make the descision as to whether the engine is salvageable or not.

I assume since he has the block out of the car there is not much effort to at least inspect the low end...any thoughts? Any suggestions on cleaning or removing the rust from the cylinders and top sprockets??

Thanks all,

Petrov

Can you post a photo of the corrosion? I might be able to get it to someone that is VERY familiar with this engine, Mike

[Ranger]

The lower case half on the Northstar is like a one piece main bearing cap. Once it is removed, the bearings must be replaced. Likewise with the rods. Bearings are not reusable.

[BigCat83]

Ya, true enough...

[petrov]

I took a trip to the garage to get some shots of the cylinders/sprockets/etc and here they are: (I hope these work as I am editing the size before uploading...)

As you will see the cam sprockets have very noticable corrosion and this is what causes my mechanic to worry about timeserting the head because there may have been corroding below as well. He is thinking about removing the oil pan to look for corrosion.

Notice the poor condition of the threads on the headbolts

I will post the cylinder/gasket shots in the next messages...

[petrov]

I will post the cylinder/gasket shots in the next messages...

Lots of carbon built up in those two cylinders! You can see where the tear is in the gasket, originally I was getting headlift from the headbolt around number 5 and then the gasket was compromised.

[petrov]

Good old Canadian winters with salt! The garage had a little difficulty removing the cradle as one of the 'pucks' basically bonded to the car and you can see it missing in the photo and the corrosion is apparent.

[petrov]

[petrov]

That was the last picture.

What do you guys think?

1) Is the corrosion too much to consider salvaging this block?

2) Is the wearing on the cylinder walls acceptable?

3) Should the garage be concerned about the main bearings for corrosion as a result of visual corroding up top?

The motor ran solid before taking it to the garage, no knocking or other noises to indicate loose components. Of course it was leaking the coolant and would stall out upon choking on the fluid in the cylinders. This hopefully is a good indication that the bottom is good. I have a young tranny (3yrs) on this car and feel that it is worth it to continue but the mechanic seems to be hesitant without being confident of the condition of the bearings.

I guess he wants me to leave with a good repair at the end and not something that may cause me issues shortly down the road. I certainly appreciate the consideration!

Thanks all,

Petrov

[petrov]

Oops, missed a few...

[petrov]

These were the last two, I promise

[JimD]

Let me disqualify myself as a Northstar technical expert!

But, if this was my car & engine, I would Timesert all the head bolt holes, install new bolts and gaskets.

Before lighting the fire the first time, I would add some GM EOS to the oil and disconnect the ICM control circuits (kill the ignition), pull the injector fuses (to kill fuel injection) and crank the engine to pump fresh oil through all the oil passages.

What I would not do is; open the crank or rod bearings, or attempt to burnish the cylinder bore in any way.

None of your pictures show me any "damage" that would not disappear within some short period of running the engine with fresh headgaskets.

But, this is not my car & engine.

[Cadillac Jim]

There is essentially no wear in the cylinder bores. You can see the factory honing marks, the cross-hatch pattern. This is normal for Northstars, even at high mileage.

The only thing that I find alarming in any of these pictures is debris in the cylinder bores.

[KHE]

I second both Jim's replies - I wouldn't tear into the engine further but clean out the dirt/grit from the cylinders. Once the engine is back together, fill the crankcase with Rotella 10W30 and 1 pt. of GM EOS and unplug the ICM per the shop manual and crank the engine 30 seconds to prime the oil pump. Then plug in the ICM and start it up.