code PC0741

[Larry]

My dashboard is reading SERVICE TRANSMISSION. The car is shifting normal through all 4 gears. The code says TCC is stuck in off position. I have a feeling this will be expensive. Thanks

[Dadillac]

My '02 Seville started getting code P0741 about 9 months ago. I read that it won't damage the trans if it isn't repaired. I was getting the SES light about every 2-3 days. Over the past week and a half, I haven't gotten the light. I ran the codes, and the P0741 wasn't there. So I am beginning to think that the issue with my car isn't mechanical, and that it is electric. I haven't yet had a mechanical issue repair itself. But have had several loose electrical connections sort themselves out. I do feel confident that the code will reappear in the future though. I just don't get that good of luck. Oh, and my trans has never shifted anything but perfecrtly.

Don

[steve6]

it is very expensive if you choose to fix it,

http://vehicletest.state.ma.us/p0741tsb.pdf

I have towed objects with this code on my last car and it really dosnt have any effect on the way it works. so its your call...

[Ranger]

The TCC (Torque Converter Clutch) locks the converter to the engine at 41 MPH so there is no slippage for better fuel economy. If you choose to ignore it, you will run about 100 - 200 RPM higher at any given speed due to the slippage. The cost will be about 1 MPG as opposed to the $2000 repair.

[Larry]

The TCC (Torque Converter Clutch) locks the converter to the engine at 41 MPH so there is no slippage for better fuel economy. If you choose to ignore it, you will run about 100 - 200 RPM higher at any given speed due to the slippage. The cost will be about 1 MPG as opposed to the $2000 repair.

Thanks, I cleared codes last night and light went out, and has not come on again today. The car shifts fine and goes into overdrive at 41 miles per hour. I guess Iwill just wait and see, Thanks so much, LARRY

[samert]

My dashboard is reading SERVICE TRANSMISSION. The car is shifting normal through all 4 gears. The code says TCC is stuck in off position. I have a feeling this will be expensive. Thanks

My Wife's 96 ElDorado had this same code 2-3 months ago. I cleared it and all was well until this weekend. Today I called the local Caddy dealer and they said it was the torque converter (TC) and it needed replacement. No diagnosis required it’s always the TC they said. $2000.00 to fix it. Yeah right!!

Took it to my local tranny shop and he hooked up his analyzer and we went for a test drive and he showed me how the TC was not locking up, then cleared the code and it started working but was showing excessive slippage. In OD the slippage reading was running around 130 @ 55 mph and should be around 10-20. If not fixed then it continues to slip more than it should creating excessive heat and eventually burns up the tranny he say’s. If you leave the code in place then same thing happens eventually. The TC lock up feature is designed to reduce heat. His complete rebuild cost is $2500 vs. dealers $2000 to just replace the TC.

I checked the fluid condition when I got home and it's smelling burnt. Doesn't sound good.

Any experts out there that can confirm this.

Steve

[stsjoe]

I've been throwing this code for almost 2 years (daily) and 65k miles, just drive it. Medium incline 50-55 miles an hour, sound familiar

Joe

PS if the code clears in diagnostics and doesnt return immediately its just an episode, could also be the brake switch

[Ranger]

The TC lock up feature is designed to reduce heat.

The TC lock up feature is actually to increase fuel milage. Transmissions in the 60's & 70's did not have this feature and all had some slippage.

[samert]

I've been throwing this code for almost 2 years (daily) and 65k miles, just drive it. Medium incline 50-55 miles an hour, sound familiar

Joe

PS if the code clears in diagnostics and doesnt return immediately its just an episode, could also be the brake switch

Joe,

I've cleared the code twice today and it keeps coming back, so I think something’s amiss. However, the more I read about this the more I'm inclined to have the fluid changed out tomorrow and see what happens over the weekend. I've also read several posts about changing out the solenoids and problem goes away.

Steve

[Ranger]

Two different solenoids. Shift solenoids vs TCC solenoid. Shift solenoids can be done through the pan. TCC solenoids require dropping the trans I believe.

[stsjoe]

Change the fluid and filter, open the side panel too and drain it DON'T FLUSH the TCC solenoid is inside the tranny you can't get to it without dropping the transmission ( the shift solenoids are in the pan an can be changed in the driveway) Good luck, I know its annoying but I just hit the Info reset button and ignore the light till it goes out or I reset it

Joe

[samert]

Change the fluid and filter, open the side panel too and drain it DON'T FLUSH the TCC solenoid is inside the tranny you can't get to it without dropping the transmission ( the shift solenoids are in the pan an can be changed in the driveway) Good luck, I know its annoying but I just hit the Info reset button and ignore the light till it goes out or I reset it

Joe

Joe,

I'm curious about your “Don’t Flush” comment which I’ve read several times now on this forum. A few years ago I had my fluid changed out by the local oil change shop where my son worked using their T-tech machine. Remove the pressure line and connect to the “In” hose on the machine and another hose from the “Return” line on the machine is connected to the radiator cooler. Start engine and the transmission pumps the old fluid into a cylinder which forces the new fluid through the return line connected to the radiator. Others have said you get the junk fluid from the previous car they used it on but I looked this piece of equipment over pretty good and when they fill it with the new fluid it forces out the old into the recycle pit. There is a piston in the cylinder that keeps the old and new fluid separated. They are not back flushing the transmission as some have indicated. This machine is just connected inline and 16 qts of old fluid comes out and 16 qts of new is pushed in. The old fluid typically looks much darker in the cylinder which is transparent. Other than being much less messy, I don’t really see how it’s much different than the old method of disconnect one line and pump out 6 qts into a pan, pour in 6 new qts and repeat until new clean fluid starts coming out. This just seems much more accurate and I do realize that you cannot get all the old out without some mixing with the new inside the transmission, even with the old method that is the case. With this machine there is an exact 1:1 exchange of fluid.

Please educate me. What am I missing here?

Steve

[Ranger]

My dashboard is reading SERVICE TRANSMISSION. The car is shifting normal through all 4 gears. The code says TCC is stuck in off position. I have a feeling this will be expensive. Thanks

My Wife's 96 ElDorado had this same code 2-3 months ago. I cleared it and all was well until this weekend. Today I called the local Caddy dealer and they said it was the torque converter (TC) and it needed replacement. No diagnosis required it’s always the TC they said. $2000.00 to fix it. Yeah right!!

Took it to my local tranny shop and he hooked up his analyzer and we went for a test drive and he showed me how the TC was not locking up, then cleared the code and it started working but was showing excessive slippage. In OD the slippage reading was running around 130 @ 55 mph and should be around 10-20. If not fixed then it continues to slip more than it should creating excessive heat and eventually burns up the tranny he say’s. If you leave the code in place then same thing happens eventually. The TC lock up feature is designed to reduce heat. His complete rebuild cost is $2500 vs. dealers $2000 to just replace the TC.

I checked the fluid condition when I got home and it's smelling burnt. Doesn't sound good.

Any experts out there that can confirm this.

Steve

Samert,

I see you are new here. Let me just say that one thing the flush machine can't do is clean out the pan and all the clutch material adhering to the magnet in the pan. That aside here is what our old Guru (a GM powertrain engineer) had to say about it. He was/is well respected and we still preach his advice.

"Transmission Flushing - Good or bad?

Never, ever flush a transmission. There is no "safe" way to flush a transmission unless you own the flush machine and control it yourself.

Flushing a transmission has several pitfalls...

The most obvious is that the last vehicle hooked up to that flushing machine probably was on it's last leg and was generating tons of debris. Most owners, when the transmission starts to act up, rush to get a "flush" in the fervent hope that it will cure the problem. So... flush machines, by definition, see the worst of the worst. If the lines aren't cleaned, hooked up improperly, oil is reused or recycled, etc....then you are screwed as your transmission gets the dose of debris from the last transmission . No matter how good the intentions of the shop, one simple mistake and your transmission gets the debris.

Flushing is supposed to negate the need for removing the pan, cleaning the debris and replacing the filter... BS. There is considerable debris coating the inside of the transmission pan with miles as anyone who has done this can attest. That is part of the maintenance, removing the pan, cleaning the screens and replacing the filter and cleaning the pan.

All that debris in the pan is laying around in areas where there is little oil flow by definition... it tends to settle in the areas where the oil is quiet and just lies there not hurting anything.... until the "flush" stirs it up and circulates it thru the transmission. What a concept...

Reverse flush????? What logic makes anyone think that it is a good idea to reverse the oil flow path in a reverse flush and flush sediment and debris into areas that are normally protected by filters, etc...???? Stupid idea. Period. No other way to describe it.

"Transmission flush" machines are money makers for the shops and dealerships because they are quick and easy and they can actually charge more money for it under the guise of it being "better" for the transmission... when it is really a detriment.... suckers are born every day...

Read the factory service manuals and point out the place where a transmission "flush" is recommended.

So what if all the oil cannot be removed. A "flush" doesn't remove it all either.

If you really really want to replace as much oil as possible in the transmission, drain the pan, service it by removing/cleaning/changing the filter and reassemble. Refill the transmission with fresh fluid. Disconnect one of the cooler lines at the radiator, put it into a bucket and start the engine. Let the transmission oil pump purge the old oil into the bucket so that nothing is subjected to abnormal oil flow. Start pouring oil into the transmission to keep it full while the idling engine/transmission oil pump purges the fluid thru the system. Easy and quick and gets ALL the fluid out... and eliminates any risk of hooking up to a "flush machine".

I know this is about 4.1/4.5/4.9 engines but be aware that on the Northstar engines/4T80E transmissions there is a hidden drain plug for the transmission side cover that requires that the bottom pan be removed to drain the side cover oil storage area. The idea of flushing a 4T80E is even more ludicrous than a 4T60 transmission for this reason.

The 4T60 and 4T80 transmissions are similar in that both store oil in the side cover...but they do it differently. The 4T60 transmission with the 4.x engines stores oil in the side cover only when HOT. There is a bimetal thermostatic valve that closes causing side cover oil to be trapped behind a weir or dam. So, change the oil in a 4T60 transmission when it is cold to get the most oil out... The 4T80 transmission is a dry sump unit that ALWAYS stores it's oil in the side cover. There is a scavenge pump that scavenges the oil from the bottom pan to the side cover all the time. That is why there is a hidden drain plug underneath the bottom pan to drain the side cover when the pan is off for service.

FORGET THE IDEA OF FLUSHING YOUR TRANSMISSIONS. Normal transmission maintenance is a good idea. Drop the bottom pan, change the filter and clean everything up and refill the transmission with fresh fluid. Do the cooler line/bucket purge if you are really fastidious about changing all the fluid... but... DO NOT hook your transmission up to a flush machine.

Really now, would you get a blood transfusion from an unknown source that is reusing needles... about the same thing if you think about it. A flush will do absolutely nothing more than a good drain and refill will accomplish... and potentially a lot of harm. Do not take the risk. Just because some have had good experiences (or the lack of a bad experience) with a flush does NOT mean that they will always go good."

[stsjoe]

Ranger hit it Steve

Good luck Joe

[samert]

OK guy's, point taken.

Like I said before the fluid smells burnt and it's not nice and red like it should be. I just checked and it's been 30K miles ago and almost 3 years but this could of all happened in the last 2-3 months. So I'm goin in after the filters and a fluid change this weekend. It looks like there are 2 filters, a left and a right.

I've pulled tranny pans and filters before but those were on old technology. Can someone please give me more details on where to find the hidden drain plug to also drain the side cover once I pull the pan off. I'm assuming it's on the left (drivers side) once I get the pan off. Maybe a photo or someone can direct me to a diagram.

Assuming all looks OK in there, I'm going to clear the codes again and drive it for awhile and see what happens.

One other thing. This car has a history of having problems when it gets wet like driving through a deep puddle or lots of rain which we've had lately. Any chance this could be the problem and a connector is getting shorted out or something like that?

Doesn't explain the burnt fluid though.

Thanks for all the input.

Steve

[Catch Me]

OK guy's, point taken.

Like I said before the fluid smells burnt and it's not nice and red like it should be. I just checked and it's been 30K miles ago and almost 3 years but this could of all happened in the last 2-3 months. So I'm goin in after the filters and a fluid change this weekend. It looks like there are 2 filters, a left and a right.

I've pulled tranny pans and filters before but those were on old technology. Can someone please give me more details on where to find the hidden drain plug to also drain the side cover once I pull the pan off. I'm assuming it's on the left (drivers side) once I get the pan off. Maybe a photo or someone can direct me to a diagram.

Assuming all looks OK in there, I'm going to clear the codes again and drive it for awhile and see what happens.

One other thing. This car has a history of having problems when it gets wet like driving through a deep puddle or lots of rain which we've had lately. Any chance this could be the problem and a connector is getting shorted out or something like that?

Doesn't explain the burnt fluid though.

Thanks for all the input.

Steve

Since most of the trans is controled by electronics a bad connection would explain the burnt fluid.

If one of the sensors or selnoids is not receiving the correct voltage / signal it can cause a clutch pack etc to slip making the trans run hot.

[Ranger]

Can someone please give me more details on where to find the hidden drain plug to also drain the side cover once I pull the pan off. I'm assuming it's on the left (drivers side) once I get the pan off. Maybe a photo or someone can direct me to a diagram.

It's the silver bolt where the black wire loom cover makes the turn. Right next to the big round indentation with trans fluid on the rim. BTW, the "filters" are actually reusable screens.

http://caddyinfo.ipbhost.com/index.php?act...ost&id=2248

http://caddyinfo.ipbhost.com/index.php?act...ost&id=2247

[KHE]

You say the fluid is burned - does it have the "burned popcorn" smell? if not, it probably hasn't been overheated. I have had a few coworkers tell me their trans fluid was burned and I checked it and it was just fine.

Clean the outside of the pan and the side of the case prior to removing the pan. Get a new pan gasket from GM - aftermarket pan gaskets do not have the steel bushings and you'll damage the pan if you torque the bolts to spec. The GM Trans. Kit (pan gasket with two screens and o-rings) is cheaper than the pan gasket alone....

Larry covered the side cover drain plug. Make sure you have an inch-pound torque wrench to torque the pan bolts. There is a beginning, intermediate, and a final torque value for the bolts. Once the pan os off, throughly clean the inside and outside of the pan as well as the magnet. Clean all the bolts and the bolt holes. I use a Shapie marker to write the torque sequence right on the pan next to each bolt hole - it makes it much faster to torque the bolts when under the car vs. looking at the diagram.

Measure the amount of fluid drained out and put the same quantity of new fluid in, road test the vehicle, and then check the fluid when it is hot.

[samert]

I think the fluid definitely is burned a bit and it's a brownish red color. Last night I compared it with fluid fresh out of the bottle on a white paper towel. Definitely is not the same smell or color.

Where can I find the torque sequence and the 3 torque values? Maybe it’s with the new pan gasket.

Steve

[BodybyFisher]

Here is the tightening sequence (see photo) and torque:

1st Time: Tighten the pan bolts to 3 N·m (27 lb in).

2d Time: Tighten the pan bolts to 6 N·m (53 lb in).

3d Time: Tighten the pan bolts to 12 N·m (106 lb in).

Color is not a good indication of whether or not the fluid is good, this is out of the service procedures:

Important

Transmission fluid may turn dark with normal use. This does not always indicate oxidation or contamination.

The fluid color should be light brown.

Is the fluid color light brown?

Important

A very small amount of material in the bottom pan is a normal condition, but large pieces of metal or other material in the bottom pan require a transmission overhaul.

That you said your fluid is brownish RED, to me is good.....

[samert]

Thanks Mr. Fisher,

Just picked up the new filter and pan gasket set from the dealer and the same info was included.

As for the fluid color, I would say it's a light brown so maybe it's not bad after all. Makes me feel a little better now. Doesn't matter much though, most of it's getting replaced anyway.

I read on one of the forums (maybe this one) about aftermarket fluid (like Valvoline) not working too well because of all the additives and better to stick witht he GM recommend stuff.

Any comments on that?

Thanks again.

Steve

[BodybyFisher]

I can't comment on that, I feel as long as its Dextron lll, you are good to go.. Dextron lll meets a GM spec.

Here is a photo of the second fluid drain:

[KHE]

The fluid will turn brown eventually as the red color is just a dye so that the assembly plants can differentiate it from engine oil. If the fluid is burned, you will know it - there is no mistaking that stench... It is a moot point anyway as you are replacing it. Be sure to reset the trans oil life monitor when you're done - I think you press and hold the OFF and REAR DEFROST buttons on the climate control panel until "TRANS FLUID LIFE RESET" appears on the DIC.

Any brand of Dexron 3 will work fine in your trans. You don't need any high mileage formula - just use regular Dexron 3.

[samert]

Thanks again everyone.

Pulled it apart last night and everything looked pretty good in there. A small amount (about the size of a quarter) of what I suspect is clutch materal in one corner of the pan and some silver paste on the magnet.

However, I don,t think the factory ever tightend up the side cover drain plug. Actually it may have been cross threaded in because it was barely hand tight and only about 1 turn in.

Overallm I got about 2 gals of fluid out and replaced the 2 screens and new gasket. Erased the 0741 code and we'll what happens over the next few days.

Thanks again.

Steve

[BodybyFisher]

Good job, let us know how it turns out. I am glad I posted the information regarding debris in the pan for you, reading your description of what you found in your pan..