qt53fatboy Posted July 30, 2011 Report Share Posted July 30, 2011 I had my mechanic look into why my 1967 cadillac DeVille (429ci) was misfiring and sputtering. He said it was a lifter and proceeded to dismantle the engine. After several unforseen set backs and 1 month, he tried to restart the engine with all new lifters and rocker arms. Now he says that the problem still exist and it could only be a worn crank shaft not raising a lifter or something. I've got to pay him $450.00 in labor now and he dosesn't want to touch the car any more. Any suggestions out there? Its my dream car but I really dont need a money pit in this economy. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Texas Jim Posted July 30, 2011 Report Share Posted July 30, 2011 First....It is the CAMshaft and not the CRANKshaft that works the lifters... Why does the mechanic not want to work on the car any more??? It is possible that you had a bad lifter... It is also possible that you have a bad cam...but I doubt it. I don't recall ever hearing of a can lobe going flat in the 429. With the proper tools, (which a decent mechanic should have), a complete set of lifters and rocker arms can be installed in one day, a day and a half if you take a lot of breaks. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bruce Nunnally Posted July 30, 2011 Report Share Posted July 30, 2011 Was the car running smoothly prior to the recent sputtering and misfiring? What else was done to diagnose the sputtering and misfiring? I know mechanics often can quickly diagnose familiar patterns, but what has already been checked out and ruled out? Bruce 2023 Cadillac CT4-V Blackwing Follow me on: Twitter Instagram Youtube Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BodybyFisher Posted July 30, 2011 Report Share Posted July 30, 2011 Did he inspect the lifters when he removed them for bad wear?, if a cam lobe was worn that badly, the lifter should have had evidence of that damage. He should have known this when he did the lifters, I would have Does he still have the lifters?, inspect them for evidence of the cam lobe damage. With the valve cover off, do you see a bad lifter as the rocker arm is not moving?, This can be caused by a bent push rod, or a lifter that is not filling up also. Do you hear a bad valve tick? Pre-1995 - DTC codes OBD1 >> 1996 and newer - DTC codes OBD2 >> https://www.obd-codes.com/trouble_codes/gm/obd_codes.htm How to check for codes Caddyinfo How To Technical Archive >> http://www.caddyinfo.com/wordpress/cadillac-how-to-faq/ Cadillac History & Specifications Year by Year http://www.motorera.com/cadillac/index.htm Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cadillac Jim Posted July 31, 2011 Report Share Posted July 31, 2011 Anytime you change all the lifters you need to put in a new camshaft. Changing the cam when you have the lifters out isn't that much more work - pull off the water pump and the front engine timing cover. The radiator should come out to make room and the A/C condenser needs to be moved out of the way with its hoses attached, and you may need to take out the grille to get the cam in - all can be done in a few minutes. The hardest job is pulling the damper wheel. I would consider a new cam chain. Cam change parts kits should be available that have all your parts and gaskets. This guy is no mechanic. -- Click Here for CaddyInfo page on "How To" Read Your OBD Codes-- Click Here for my personal page to download my OBD code list as an Excel file, plus other Cadillac data -- See my CaddyInfo car blogs: 2011 CTS-V, 1997 ETC Yes, I was Jims_97_ETC before I changed cars. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
qt53fatboy Posted July 31, 2011 Author Report Share Posted July 31, 2011 First....It is the CAMshaft and not the CRANKshaft that works the lifters... Why does the mechanic not want to work on the car any more??? It is possible that you had a bad lifter... It is also possible that you have a bad cam...but I doubt it. I don't recall ever hearing of a can lobe going flat in the 429. With the proper tools, (which a decent mechanic should have), a complete set of lifters and rocker arms can be installed in one day, a day and a half if you take a lot of breaks. At Texas Jim: The car was running fine before a sudden attact of misfiring and knocking (as if running on 6 or 7 cylinders only),thats why I brought it to him, but he said the engine had too much oil and lot of caked up oil over all that was probably the reason the lifters (2 or 3) were bad : poor circulation. The mechanic replaced all new lifters and rockers I purchased but the problem was that 1 lifter was dificult to extract. I even attempted to pull it out myself on one visit to the shop.So, they sat my car to the side, out of the way, and worked a few hours a day on trying to remove that one cylinder. It took almost a month! It would twist but would not leave its cylinder. It had like a great amount of suction that wouldn't release it. And at the angle it was in, the conventional tools used to remove a lifter in this situation were unable to be used because of the angle the valves are situated in the 429. The mechanic consulted another mechanic about the CAM shaft and tested his hypothesis by inserting a screwdriver in place of a push rod and watching little to no action occur. I was told this was indicative a a bad or worn CAM.Unfortunately this was discussed upon the delivery of the car back to me and everything put back together. fortunately this is not a daily driver and I have more time than money but my money isnt bad either. He advised me to get the Cam and buy a timing chain kit as well and take to this other guy who's more of a specialist than he. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
qt53fatboy Posted July 31, 2011 Author Report Share Posted July 31, 2011 Did he inspect the lifters when he removed them for bad wear?, if a cam lobe was worn that badly, the lifter should have had evidence of that damage. He should have known this when he did the lifters, I would have Does he still have the lifters?, inspect them for evidence of the cam lobe damage. With the valve cover off, do you see a bad lifter as the rocker arm is not moving?, This can be caused by a bent push rod, or a lifter that is not filling up also. Do you hear a bad valve tick? I have the lifters he replaced. I'll look over them, thanks! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
qt53fatboy Posted July 31, 2011 Author Report Share Posted July 31, 2011 Was the car running smoothly prior to the recent sputtering and misfiring? What else was done to diagnose the sputtering and misfiring? I know mechanics often can quickly diagnose familiar patterns, but what has already been checked out and ruled out? A little rattling Bruce at high RPM's, like a slight tapping, but no knocking. I was also starting to develop a blue tinged tail-pipe smoke also, especially upon starting the car. Other than that, It ran smoothly until the eventful day of this acute attack. Thanks! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cadillac Jim Posted July 31, 2011 Report Share Posted July 31, 2011 A lifter that is run loose for a long time will flatten the bottom of the lifter and spread it slightly. A spread lifter will no longer come out the top of the hole. When this occurs, the lifter is removed by first removing the camshaft, then removing the lifter through the bottom. Any experienced mechanic that works on high-mileage cars should know this. When a lifter is run too loose for a long period of time, that cam lobe will indeed be flattened to some degree. Thus if you *must* remove a camshaft to get out a spread lifter, you leave it out and put in a new one. Cams are too inexpensive and labor is too expensive to put back an old used one when you have it out. Any doubt can be removed by comparing lobe heights with a micrometer once the cam is out. -- Click Here for CaddyInfo page on "How To" Read Your OBD Codes-- Click Here for my personal page to download my OBD code list as an Excel file, plus other Cadillac data -- See my CaddyInfo car blogs: 2011 CTS-V, 1997 ETC Yes, I was Jims_97_ETC before I changed cars. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
navion Posted July 31, 2011 Report Share Posted July 31, 2011 I'm thinking that the problem probably was ignition and not a lifter or bad cam. I would check the distributor cap inside for carbon tracking, check the spark plug wires for arcing and replace the spark plugs, if not already done. I agree with Jim in that you should NEVER replace the lifters without replacing the cam. They should ALWAYS be replaced as a set. A lifter that is going bad will usually do so slowly, whereas a bad distributor cap, plugs or wires fail relatively quickly when they do fail. Additionally, I think that you need a new mechanic. Any mechanic that would demand payment for a problem that he did not fix and refuse to work on the car anymore is not a MECHANIC! Especially if he didn't troubleshoot the problem before announcing that it was a lifter. Britt Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BodybyFisher Posted July 31, 2011 Report Share Posted July 31, 2011 When I was in college, I rebuilt a 429 in a 66 convertible. The lifter were difficult to come out of the top, but there was a special lifter removal tool that I used, with a slide hammer, a couple of hits and it popped out, it broke the buildup and the lifter came right out, http://www.summitracing.com/parts/WMR-W84004 Pre-1995 - DTC codes OBD1 >> 1996 and newer - DTC codes OBD2 >> https://www.obd-codes.com/trouble_codes/gm/obd_codes.htm How to check for codes Caddyinfo How To Technical Archive >> http://www.caddyinfo.com/wordpress/cadillac-how-to-faq/ Cadillac History & Specifications Year by Year http://www.motorera.com/cadillac/index.htm Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Texas Jim Posted August 1, 2011 Report Share Posted August 1, 2011 When I was in college, I rebuilt a 429 in a 66 convertible. The lifter were difficult to come out of the top, but there was a special lifter removal tool that I used, with a slide hammer, a couple of hits and it popped out, it broke the buildup and the lifter came right out, http://www.summitrac...arts/WMR-W84004 Yeah...what BBF said. I just can't imagine "ANY" halfway competent mechanic not having one of those. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
qt53fatboy Posted August 1, 2011 Author Report Share Posted August 1, 2011 I'm thinking that the problem probably was ignition and not a lifter or bad cam. I would check the distributor cap inside for carbon tracking, check the spark plug wires for arcing and replace the spark plugs, if not already done. I agree with Jim in that you should NEVER replace the lifters without replacing the cam. They should ALWAYS be replaced as a set. A lifter that is going bad will usually do so slowly, whereas a bad distributor cap, plugs or wires fail relatively quickly when they do fail. Additionally, I think that you need a new mechanic. Any mechanic that would demand payment for a problem that he did not fix and refuse to work on the car anymore is not a MECHANIC! Especially if he didn't troubleshoot the problem before announcing that it was a lifter. Man, you guys make a lot of sense. Like Ray charles used to say "now I see." Its funny you mention that... When I picked up the car I noticed the plug wires were not placed back in their proper clips, but that could be from moving them to the side to remove valve covers etc. Whats done is done. It does ride better now and I'm sure he put on the new lifters and rocker arms I gave him as I have the old ones and saw the cylinders with them out. I should have discovered this site before I took it to this guy. I would have been better armed with information to inquire about. Thanks! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
qt53fatboy Posted August 1, 2011 Author Report Share Posted August 1, 2011 A lifter that is run loose for a long time will flatten the bottom of the lifter and spread it slightly. A spread lifter will no longer come out the top of the hole. When this occurs, the lifter is removed by first removing the camshaft, then removing the lifter through the bottom. Any experienced mechanic that works on high-mileage cars should know this. When a lifter is run too loose for a long period of time, that cam lobe will indeed be flattened to some degree. Thus if you *must* remove a camshaft to get out a spread lifter, you leave it out and put in a new one. Cams are too inexpensive and labor is too expensive to put back an old used one when you have it out. Any doubt can be removed by comparing lobe heights with a micrometer once the cam is out. Some how they got it out trough the top, though it took almost a month. Do you think I should just drive it until the problem occurs again ( if it ever does) or could replacing the cam shaft now forestall any future problem of this type again? What signs should I be looking for Jim that I need to change that cam shaft if indeed it does have a bad or worn lobe? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
qt53fatboy Posted August 1, 2011 Author Report Share Posted August 1, 2011 I'm thinking that the problem probably was ignition and not a lifter or bad cam. I would check the distributor cap inside for carbon tracking, check the spark plug wires for arcing and replace the spark plugs, if not already done. I agree with Jim in that you should NEVER replace the lifters without replacing the cam. They should ALWAYS be replaced as a set. A lifter that is going bad will usually do so slowly, whereas a bad distributor cap, plugs or wires fail relatively quickly when they do fail. Additionally, I think that you need a new mechanic. Any mechanic that would demand payment for a problem that he did not fix and refuse to work on the car anymore is not a MECHANIC! Especially if he didn't troubleshoot the problem before announcing that it was a lifter. Thanks "Old Timer," hindsight is always 20/20. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
qt53fatboy Posted August 1, 2011 Author Report Share Posted August 1, 2011 When I was in college, I rebuilt a 429 in a 66 convertible. The lifter were difficult to come out of the top, but there was a special lifter removal tool that I used, with a slide hammer, a couple of hits and it popped out, it broke the buildup and the lifter came right out, http://www.summitracing.com/parts/WMR-W84004 Thanks, that's awesome. I'm printing the picture of the tool and will drop it by him today so as to enlighten him. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BodybyFisher Posted August 1, 2011 Report Share Posted August 1, 2011 Be careful, he may have knowledge of that tool and used it already, and you will look foolish!... I would just ask him how he is trying to remove the lifter Pre-1995 - DTC codes OBD1 >> 1996 and newer - DTC codes OBD2 >> https://www.obd-codes.com/trouble_codes/gm/obd_codes.htm How to check for codes Caddyinfo How To Technical Archive >> http://www.caddyinfo.com/wordpress/cadillac-how-to-faq/ Cadillac History & Specifications Year by Year http://www.motorera.com/cadillac/index.htm Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cadillac Jim Posted August 1, 2011 Report Share Posted August 1, 2011 At this point, with the car together and running with the new lifters, I would just wait and watch. If some or all of the lifters go out of adjustment too soon - within a year - then the cam lobes didn't seat against the new lifters. At that point, you will need to replace both the cam and the lifters. If it holds, it holds. -- Click Here for CaddyInfo page on "How To" Read Your OBD Codes-- Click Here for my personal page to download my OBD code list as an Excel file, plus other Cadillac data -- See my CaddyInfo car blogs: 2011 CTS-V, 1997 ETC Yes, I was Jims_97_ETC before I changed cars. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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