Too Much Technology?

[mhinchley]

I think the are overpriced, over done technology wise..............and that is a large part of the reason they are heading toward Bankruptcy in the near future. And I love speed, but don't understand the HP wars at a time that gas cost so much. They should be focusing on mpg rather then HP right now, I think. And get rid of the unneccasary and excessive computer crap so they can sell the cars cheaper.

[BodybyFisher]

I think the are overpriced, over done technology wise..............and that is a large part of the reason they are heading toward Bankruptcy in the near future. And I love speed, but don't understand the HP wars at a time that gas cost so much. They should be focusing on mpg rather then HP right now, I think. And get rid of the unneccasary and excessive computer crap so they can sell the cars cheaper.

Allow me to repeat myself:

My point here was NOT to analyze what GM is doing wrong, my point was to analyze what GM is doing right. There are many previous threads that have detailed service problems, labor problems, GM's inability to react quickly to the market demands and to project market demands, etc.

I wonder if you would elaborate on what you think "unnecessary computer crap" is. The engine management computer?, the suspension control?, the government required OBD2 systems that allows EASY diagnosis? I am curious. Personally the MAIN reason I own my Cadillac is BECAUSE of the computer technology it has, it's easy to diagnose and logical. Maybe the computer controls are easy for me as I have built about 500 high performance computers since 1990 as a hobby. The engine management system on this car is outstanding

You can buy cheaper cars. To me however cheap does not equate to quality.

You say these are the reasons why GM is heading toward bankruptcy? Please... that is currently being covered in this thread, post your opinions about regarding GM's woes over there >> http://caddyinfo.ipbhost.com/index.php?showtopic=9031

[mhinchley]

I think the are overpriced, over done technology wise..............and that is a large part of the reason they are heading toward Bankruptcy in the near future. And I love speed, but don't understand the HP wars at a time that gas cost so much. They should be focusing on mpg rather then HP right now, I think. And get rid of the unneccasary and excessive computer crap so they can sell the cars cheaper.

Allow me to repeat myself:

My point here was NOT to analyze what GM is doing wrong, my point was to analyze what GM is doing right. There are many previous threads that have detailed service problems, labor problems, GM's inability to react quickly to the market demands and to project market demands, etc.

I wonder if you would elaborate on what you think "unnecessary computer crap" is. The engine management computer?, the suspension control?, the government required OBD2 systems that allows EASY diagnosis? I am curious. Personally the MAIN reason I own my Cadillac is BECAUSE of the computer technology it has, it's easy to diagnose and logical. Maybe the computer controls are easy for me as I have built about 500 high performance computers since 1990 as a hobby. The engine management system on this car is outstanding

You can buy cheaper cars. To me however cheap does not equate to quality.

You say these are the reasons why GM is heading toward bankruptcy? Please... that is currently being covered in this thread, post your opinions about regarding GM's woes over there >> http://caddyinfo.ipbhost.com/index.php?showtopic=9031

I personally don't think GM, FORD, or Chrysler are doing ANYTHING right.

"The engine management computer?, the suspension control?, the government required OBD2 systems that allows EASY diagnosis?" All of the above..........imo. Do the cars really run that much better then a distributor type car? I do not think they do. They had sunfoofs back then, power windows, etc, so the basic amenities were available. Yeah, I know all about the fuel economy with the great fuel management of today (though I don't notice a huge difference), cold starts, blah, blah, blah and the "benefits" of the technology. But there is not that much of a difference to justify a 2006 $60k+ price and a 1980 price of under $20,000. And I am just using the Caddy as an example. There are many, infact most cars, in this boat. Do we need all those computers? Air suspension? Heated seats?

Easy diagnostics???? PLEASE. It was much easier to diagnose these cars when they did not have all of these computers and electrical crap. It is WAY overdone. Not to mention, all this technology makes them break down more often when it fails........and 10 times more expensive to fix. For example: A cheap Northstar Crate Engine= $4000 A 350 Chevy Crate= $1000. And is it just me, or do these cars seem to rust and fall apart quicker then they used to? Point being, the average American US HOUSEHOLD income is somewhere around $65k. When the average car price is $30k...............how do they expect to keep selling cars? It is simple math. And even many of those who stretch themselves, end up filing bankruptcy and losing the car anyway. Not to mention those who just keep buying one every 2 or 3 years and keep rolling balances from the old loan to the new loan. It is just too much, and it catches up with them. Sure, technology can have us living on another planet in 20 years. But can you afford to do it? And will you like it when you get there? Technology can go too far.....................and it has already started. The Big 3 went too far and priced themselves too high. Now they are and will continue to suffer the consequences. You have to make a product the general public can afford. And they have failed miserably in that regard. Sure they build a few cars people go "oooh, and ahhhhh" about. But the ooohs and ahhhs don't pay the bills. They future car companies are taking notes right now, I hope. SUPPLY/DEMAND-----------very simple. (and the demand is for affordable, good mpg, quality cars, yet the smart big 3---------whom are getting smaller by the day----------are in a HP war). Where is the logic???

[BodybyFisher]

Either you can't read my two requests to either post positive things or to find an appropriate thread where you can post your negative opinions or you are just looking to start trouble. Exactly how does your post above fit with the title of this thread?

GM is building some outstanding cars, Anyone notice besides me?

However, for the record, these cars with their electronics are very easy to diagnose and repair. Have you considered that the problem is you? Or that maybe you don't have patience? You are entitled to your head strong opinions, but I highly disagree with it. Start a thread called, Who's a Luddite and loves distributors with points? Start your own thread discussing how the old gas guzzling, high polluting OLD SCHOOL engines were better than today's fuel efficient, low emission, low maintenance engines, so I can stand back and laugh.

The guru used to chew up and spit such opinions out for breakfast, its too bad you never met him.

[Bruce Nunnally]

I like the fact that modern cars last for over 100K miles, and don't require maintenance after every hard run. I remember a reprinted editorial from 1900s deploring the new sturdy tires, and easier starting cars, as they were going to move automobiles from a sporting hobby to something common. I for one and glad that cars don't require a riding mechanic along as they once did.

I do know how to adjust points. I don't want to know it any more. I am quite happy that my computer controlled car gets excellent gas mileage with minimal emmissions and unprecedented power per liter.

Cadillac almost lost the company by making low reliability cars. Now they are making high reliability cars that are world class. Hopefully more people will try them and realize that the 'local' luxury brand really is the Cadillac of motor cars.

[Regis]

mhinchley,

This is what BBF is trying to tell you.... This discussion thread is about the positives of GM autos NOT the negative aspects. If you want to *smurf* about how bad GM is, how they screwed up (of course in your opinion), too slow to react, and other negatives about GM then there are plenty of existing topics for you to add your two cents to. I thought BBF was perfectly clear about this thread celebrating the positives of GM cars. I guess some need to be hit over the head with a brick to get the point. Well consider a brick thrown.

BBF,

I like the new look and direction of Cadillac. I also like all the electronic gagets and computers. Afterall, it is the evolution of electronics and technology. Unless one views solid state and vacuum tubes as current technology. We won't even get into ipods, x boxes, and hand helds. And I personally love the pursuit of horsepower but with sensible gas mileage. I read an article not to long ago about how people are becoming more excited about what kind of ipod they have and less about the type of car they drive. The article went on to say that people were viewing cars as more utilitarian and less as a status symbol or something to get excited over. LOL I'd like to meet these people that get their rocks off comparing handheld electronic devices over fine cars so I can have a good laugh. But then again that is truely sad. To wrap it up before I hit the hay......love the new looking caddys and their pursuit of horsepower.

Sir Bruce,

Well said on your last post.

[justgreat]

features found on modern cars call into two categories: those that must be there (by law) and those that the public wants. sometimes, the two overlap, such as side curtain airbags and such...but, the major portion of the continual increases in the cost of vehicles is due to the ever widening array of safety features that are mandated by the feds. there is no way for the manfrs to get around these costs. take electronic throttle control for example: do you really think that the car companies wanted to replace a cable with sensors, chips, and electric motors? this was the only way for the manfrs to meet the ulev emmission levels....they HAD to put this stuff on the cars and it's been a nightmare for both the consumer and the car companies. i haven't seen any complaints from caddy owners but bmw, toyota and ford owners have complained about problems with surging, run-on and other maladies associated with the dbw technology. these complaints have done nothing to bolster the reputation of the auto makers but there's not a whole lot they can do about it. in time, they will sort out the problems...the technology will catch up to the real world.

jackg 90seville 100k

[JasonA]

I personally don't think GM, FORD, or Chrysler are doing ANYTHING right. "The engine management computer?, the suspension control?, the government required OBD2 systems that allows EASY diagnosis?" All of the above..........imo. Do the cars really run that much better then a distributor type car? I do not think they do.

Are you kidding??

Yeah, you HAVE to be kidding. Do you really believe that a 1970 Cadillac Eldorado with a distributor, points, carburetor, runs as good for as long as a modern Cadillac? It's pretty much a FACT that you can't deny that computers and distributorless ignition systems have taken the guesswork and variability out of automobiles.

The dual-platinum spark plugs in my distributorless-ignited Northstar engine lasted 150,000 miles. You'd have had to rebuild that entire 1970 engine by now, or at least do a valve job on it.

If you really think that cars from the pre-computer era run as good as they do now, you must not have driven any.

Besides, there's more to running "good" than simply seat of the pants feel. If you'd take a look at the tailpipe emissions of a car from 20 years ago, you'd really be surprised. Modern engine management systems have reduced tailpipe emissions almost to nothing in recent engines. And they're SO MUCH MORE efficient on fuel, using half as much for twice the performance.

[BMWburner]

With the exception of radial tires, nothing has improved the automotive industry as a whole more than have ones and zeros running the show. Technology has done nothing but simplify automobiles. If techno toys aren't your deal, cool. I feel ya'. Not everyone needs that stuff. There are a handfull of features on my car I could do without, but when I snake the selector into "R" watching the passenger mirror tilt to the curb and the park distance controll light up in my rearview mirror puts a big smile on my face. It's friendly reminder that I drive an amazingly convienient car. That's what technology translates into: convience. No tune ups, fewer trips to the gas pump, and easy self diagnosis. There isn't another car on the planet with the self diagnosis offerings standard on every Cadillac. Period.

There were about about 5 more computer modules to worry about in my 1995 Cadillac than in my 2002. The engine compatment looks baren in comparison. No plug wires, only one PCM box, there are fewer pieces of electrical "crap" to increase the cost of production. By the way, it's about 3 times smoother in response, noise, and power output. Geeze, all that technology is obviously a waste of time, LOL.

As far as GM being outdone for technology, hardly. They may always be a year or two behind germany, but you know what? They offer the same technology for alot less cash and make it more reliable. You simply won't find a 2002 BMW 540i with the same miles that my car has that doesn't have dead pixles all over every display and power seats that are half worn out. Two completely different machines, I'm well aware, but for ten grand more on a dealer lot, everything should work! "Well, sir, if you can afford to buy it, you can afford to...". B/S. My 95' had 130,000 thousand miles, and guess what? Everything worked! My 3 series of the same vintage was a brisk handling bucket of dead displays and switches that once functioned long ago. Jap cars offer stellar reliability, but lack the luster of high dollar American and German cars. They sure as hell don't diagnose themselves.

The only true technoblunder GM has made in recent years is Onstar. It's sort of neat, but most of us don't even subscribe to it. I'd use the phone if it could recieve incomming calls and you could keep your same Verizon number, but you can't. The ability to read OBDII codes is cool, but I'd be just as fast to hit "Up and On" if I see a check engine light. As far as getting lost goes...well that would helpfull now wouldn't it?

For the record I grew up in the peak of the import scene and once had nothing but negative bias for domestic cars, and there are some god awfull ones, but I've learned to appericate a vehicle's pros and cons for what they are. Sure I'd take an Acura before a Ford, but if Ford started making cars I liked I'd buy one. Not because I'm a Ford fan, but because I'm a car fan.

Just one young man's long winded two cents

--Ben

[gygmy]

The new cars are great compared to the old ones. You spend much less time maintaining a new car, and they do not rust out like the old ones did. The only problem that concerns me is, that on a new car, you must remove a lot of parts to get to a part. All thoues wires and vacume tubes, every thing stuck into a tight engine bay. I think the old school is just stuck on not being able to get at the fix with out haviving to rermove all of the pieeces that make a modern car more safe, fuel efficient and dependable. For my money, a car that will run for 200, 000 mi. with a minnimum of work is just fine. Plus they go much faster. Wee.

[mikeal1892]

I would just like to see better quatily thats what hurts this brand as whole ! Look what we all go through with our cars oil leaks, suspension problems, head gaskets, costly repairs. " a cadillac will run forever if you take good care of it " thats something I know for a fact. my aunt was getting 200-300 k miles out of hers in the 1980's

The price of things in our country is out of control. I work in a real estate office and sometimes at our shop let me tell you what the real estate market is about to go belly up ! And gas here in Indiana is out of site ! Indiana is also the number out state in the country for bankruptcys! Pres. Bush as done us no favors. Theres reports out there within hours of 9-11 they were trying to come up with a reason to go into Iraq. And keep in mind both Bush and Chainy have ties to the oil buisness. I think that hard times really havent even hit home yet. things I think will get considerable worse. He says the troops will stay in Iraq well until hes gone ? What does this mean for us at home ? Creates alot of issues !

Michael

[mikeal1892]

I agree with some of this . However there is no need to be nasty with one another !

World Peace !

Michael

[JasonA]

I would just like to see better quatily thats what hurts this brand as whole ! Look what we all go through with our cars oil leaks, suspension problems, head gaskets, costly repairs. " a cadillac will run forever if you take good care of it " thats something I know for a fact. my aunt was getting 200-300 k miles out of hers in the 1980's

Michael, be careful not to make the generalization that ALL of our cars have quality issues. All don't. Mine has 151k miles on it. The head gaskets are still fine. ALL FOUR suspension dampers (front struts and rear air shocks) are original and working fine (with no leaks). The rear air suspension still works as designed. Both of my seat heaters work as designed. All power windows and seats work as designed. Both CV shafts are still original. All four wheel bearings are still original. The only thing that's been replaced on my engine are: alternator, water pump, plugs and wires. I haven't had to replace a single seal on it. The entire stainless steel exhaust system is still 100%, and the stainless steel tips are clean and shiny. The leather is still very nice inside. The worst is the driver seat, but there are no cracks or splits; it just looks a bit worn. It's been a remarkably reliable vehicle.

There are some things it DOES need. A new A/C compressor. I don't know how long one normally lasts, but I consider 150k miles and 9 years a good service life. And it didn't even seize up...it's just noisy. I could probably put a set of stabilizer bar bushings on it. Again, I consider 150k miles and 9 years pretty good for a set of rubber bushings.

Mine has 151k miles. I know others here have over 200k on their cars. Yesterday or today, in general, these things are very reliable cars, and will provide great service to their owners.

[mhinchley]

They made many HEI cars that did not require points............which is what I was referring to. And if you think a 97 car is easier to diagnose then a 1980 car, you are nuts imo. Because it was 99 % mechanical. It did not have all of this electical sensors, computers, etc.........that today are oftern the problem rather then the actual part. It is not even close. Nor did it cost nearly as much. And it was much easier to get to, to replace it.

And everyone has a right to their opinion on what is right and what is wrong. But GM and Ford are both Dangerously close to bankruptcy, and screwing current and formet employees in the process. So there must be something they are not doing right. And again, it is the price of the cars compared to the average household income. I am never buying another new car personally and I am above the national income average. And there are many who think my way.............which is why they cannot sell the cars in large volume for their asking prices...........so they have to have all these rebates, 0% intrest, etc. It is just not worth $35-60k for a car I use as transportation. Sure, I want it nice..........but I also want it perspective to my income. And When my car costs 1/3 as much as my home that I will own until I die............or half of what I make in a year, that is way too much. So I am one of those, who refuse to purchase new ever again, unless they get their prices in line. $600 a month to drive to work in a 'NEW" car is too much for me. I have better things to do with my money. Maybe the next car companies will learn. Toyota..........not new, but gaining ground on GM daily! And that is a fact. Won't be long until they pass them.

Am I starting crap? Hell no, I mean what I say. This is my opinion. Obviously different then yours. Maybe you agree $600 is ok for a car payment. I don't. Nor do I agree with what the parts on these cars today cost. Nor do I agree they are building great cars today. I think they cut as many corners as they can cut, and use the cheapest suppliers they can use...........in an effort to try to fix their bottom line. Remember, I have worked for OEM suppliers for the past 8 years. Drive-train at that. Pistons for example: Nissan and Toyota have much tighter tolerances on their pistons and blocks.........yet their cars are cheaper priced, run longer, and require less maintenance/repairs (check Consumer Reports-----this is fact not opinion). But they pay more per piston to keep the tight tolerances. GM and Ford open them up to lower the price per piece. I made them all, including for Cadillac and Vette. I know what I am saying.

And I am totally American. But I don't think the car makers are playing the Patriotic game fairly. Not in the cars they are building, or in the way they are treating their employees. So my opinion is starting to sway heavily. And I am ticked about it all. This is not about me vs you or anything like that. I respect everyones right to their opinion. So don't take it that way. This is my feelings against the BIG 3, and why my money will not go to them again....................unless they do some major fixing.

And the GTO, in my opinion is ALL wrong. It looks much more like a recent Grand Prix then any GTO ever. You don't bring back a name like that.........with a car that has NOTHING to do with the REAL GTO. I hope they do better with the Camaro (they have not in the past which is why Mustang outsold the Camaro and Trans Am combined, and led to their demise). Mustang did evenzx better this year........as they brought back some old school looks. Dodge actually got it completely right, with the new Challenger set to come out next year..........as it looks almost identical to the 70 Challenger. And it does not hurt that it matches the horsepower of the 70 Hemi Challenger (The Hemi has 425 hp, 420 lb-ft of torque, and a six-speed manual transmission---with an original look pistol grip shifter) http://www.allpar.com/cars/dodge/challenger.html. Camaro should look to Ligenfelter or Yenko for their answers. Still out of my price range................but I would like to see the old muscle cars done right.

[mhinchley]

I should add............I do like the Caddy's. Afterall, I own one. But I did not buy it new. Infact I got rid of my 03 Durango, which I did buy new.............to buy this and a Mark VIII (for those who don't know). But I paid $4500 and $5000 respectively and both with 75k and under mileage. Used car pricing I can live with............just not the new car prices. Point in case, I am just as happy driving either the Caddy or Lincoln, as I was driving the new Dodge. But I am saving $600 a month, since I was able to pay cash for these two.

[OynxSTS]

They made many HEI cars that did not require points............which is what I was referring to. And if you think a 97 car is easier to diagnose then a 1980 car, you are nuts imo. Because it was 99 % mechanical. It did not have all of this electical sensors, computers, etc.........that today are oftern the problem rather then the actual part. It is not even close. Nor did it cost nearly as much. And it was much easier to get to, to replace it.

I've worked on and understand both... And I'm sorry you're wrong... If a carburated HEI car is running like crap... You start by basically guessing... Vacuum leak... EGR problem... Carburetor rebuild... HEI module... Plug Cat...Etc. etc. etc... More times than not you will replace the wrong part based on an educated guess...

My ODBII Caddy... tells me exactly what is wrong.... and while it isn't always right... it bats about 700... And when its wrong... it is usually really close... Eg. my car said the B Crank sensor was shot when the A one was bad...

When you actually take a part a EFI system you will be amazed at how few sensors it takes to make a EFI system work...

[WarrenJ]

But there is not that much of a difference to justify a 2006 $60k+ price and a 1980 price of under $20,000.

Have you ever used a site such as The Inflation Calculator? [ http://www.westegg.com/inflation/ ]

Plug in the numbers and you'll quickly see that it will take 50,793.18 2005 dollars to purchase what $20,000 got you in 1980. That changes the comparison a lot.

I much preferred your later post in which you compared the price of a car to a fraction of your yearly income or fraction of your home value. I think that puts things in a perspective that is easier to understand immediately.

As an example, in 1965 my older brother, earning $10K/year, purchased a fully loaded Ford for $2500, or one quarter of his yearly income. If a similar car were $30,000 today, you'd have to earn $120,000/year for that purchase to have the same impact on your household income.

Clearly, today's automobile consumes a larger percentage of the average person's income, but certainly not triple ($60K vs $20K) what it was in 1980.

Regards,

Warren

[mikeal1892]

But there is not that much of a difference to justify a 2006 $60k+ price and a 1980 price of under $20,000.

Have you ever used a site such as The Inflation Calculator? [ http://www.westegg.com/inflation/ ]

Plug in the numbers and you'll quickly see that it will take 50,793.18 2005 dollars to purchase what $20,000 got you in 1980. That changes the comparison a lot.

I much preferred your later post in which you compared the price of a car to a fraction of your yearly income or fraction of your home value. I think that puts things in a perspective that is easier to understand immediately.

As an example, in 1965 my older brother, earning $10K/year, purchased a fully loaded Ford for $2500, or one quarter of his yearly income. If a similar car were $30,000 today, you'd have to earn $120,000/year for that purchase to have the same impact on your household income.

Clearly, today's automobile consumes a larger percentage of the average person's income, but certainly not triple ($60K vs $20K) what it was in 1980.

Regards,

Warren

WOW thats really out of control ! We paid 120 k for our house 4 years ago and you can not find anything for the size as new ! We had an apperisal for 170k in the spring of 2005

What cost $121000 in 2001 would cost $131225.69 in 2005.

Also, if you were to buy exactly the same products in 2005 and 2001,

they would cost you $121000 and $111571.14 respectively.

Michael -

[BodybyFisher]

Try this mike, we bought our house 3 years ago for $275K, and it was just appraised for $525K, sales on the block support that value strong.. Good thing we bought when we did. Long Island, NY RE is out of control.

[mikeal1892]

Try this mike, we bought our house 3 years ago for $275K, and it was just appraised for $525K, sales on the block support that value strong.. Good thing we bought when we did. Long Island, NY RE is out of control.

Mike,

I's only in Bloomington,Indiana. There more of a demand in your area than mine,but I do believe it. The market is about to bust though. Maybe you should sell ? LOL

Michael-

[BodybyFisher]

I hate it here don't get me wrong. Too much demand, illogical prices. No affordable housing. In the late 70's houses were boarded up all over Long Island. I believe that will happen again as a lot of people are leveraged up to their necks. Wish I could sell and move to Scottsdale...

[mikeal1892]

I hate it here don't get me wrong. Too much demand, illogical prices. No affordable housing. In the late 70's houses were boarded up all over Long Island. I believe that will happen again as a lot of people are leveraged up to their necks. Wish I could sell and move to Scottsdale...

I hear that ! heh. I want to move to Sc where my grandpa is ..

Michael

[WarrenJ]

I hate it here don't get me wrong. Too much demand, illogical prices. No affordable housing. In the late 70's houses were boarded up all over Long Island. I believe that will happen again as a lot of people are leveraged up to their necks. Wish I could sell and move to Scottsdale...

Scary! I read recently that 70% of mortages issued (nationwide) in 2005 were "unconventional." Meaning that they were interest-only or variable etc.

Aditionally, lenders have been refinancing at greater than 100% of equity.

Should interest rates rise (as they WILL), we'll likely see a bloodbath. I hope I'm wrong.

Regards,

Warren

P.S. A lot of that '70s stuff had to do with the defense industry realignment. Think Grumman. Interestingly, my company now lives in a former Grumman facility. I'm surrounded by history!

[WarrenJ]

Try this mike, we bought our house 3 years ago for $275K, and it was just appraised for $525K, sales on the block support that value strong.. Good thing we bought when we did. Long Island, NY RE is out of control.

And property taxes ???

Where might they be going?

It's no wonder that retirees can't remain here. But what about us non-retired folk? Even the ones who can afford to drive *old* Cadillacs?

Regards,

Warren

[BodybyFisher]

Warren, its crazy. I wanted out of here so badly. I actually had a job in Phoenix in 1990. House was about $100K and the taxes were $600. Offered me the same salary, it was a dream come true. Wife would not go to Phoenix and had friends ripping the place and telling me all the negatives. Six months later I was laid off with the severe downturn in real estate business and scrambling, and six months later I was divorced. Now my taxes are $9000, and they robbed a gas station down the corner last week at gun point along with the patrons. Long Guyland gotta love it. I am trapped like a dog