Radiator Flush

[MarkE]

Then do the block test.

I had to drive the car hard up and down hills to get it to get over half way on the temp guage. During that time I got very little heat out of the heater. Once it started to get hotter I went home and the fans were running and the upper radiator hose was firm and hot. I let the car cool down for 20 minutes and when I went to carefully take radiator cap off of the surge tank I had to slowly bleed it off because it sounded like when pressure was relieved the contents of the tank were boiling. I then did the block test and it turned a very pale yellow. When I was driving the car I didn't get the usual low refrigerant message and when I hooked up my Actron code reader I got a p1375 and p1377 code. I have never gotten those codes before.

What should I do next?

[JimD]

....I then did the block test and it turned a very pale yellow.

End of diagnosis. The "yellow" test fluid is a bet-the-farm-on-it indicator of failed head gasket(s).

[Brian Ragland]

Working on my first Northstar in a 98 sts. It came in due to the water pump tensioner bearing, belt and water pump.

Made repairs and also was asked to look at why heater wasn't working and of course the coolant system was plug

up with the good o'l Dexcol. Preformed a flush on the system and after Engine had ran for about 2.5 HRS with the

cap off i heard it start to boil out of the serge tank. First thing i did before i shut it down was looked at the temp. and

it wasn't overheating. I have thought that it could be a pluged system. About an hour in to it the heater did start to

put out good heat. Also thought it could be a Head Gasket due to the miss that came after the boil out. Even with the thermostat out it dosn't seem to start boiling out until the gauge gets @ 12 0clock and will stop right after you shut

off the engine.I did check for any combustions in the coolant system and it checked out ok. Over the years i'v heard story about the head gasket problems, but didn't really know what the problem was. If im over looking something, could i get

some feed back from anyone. Thanks.

[Bruce Nunnally]

Did you refill with 50/50 dexcool? With the cap off the system is open, and won't build pressure. Higher pressure of course raises the boiling point of the coolant.

Low fans for the Northstar start at 229F and high speed at 234F.

So if you refilled with water only after the flush and left the system open, under normal operation it would boil over even before the cooling fans came on.

[Brian Ragland]

Working on my first Northstar in a 98 sts. It came in due to the water pump tensioner bearing, belt and water pump.

Made repairs and also was asked to look at why heater wasn't working and of course the coolant system was plug

up with the good o'l Dexcol. Preformed a flush on the system and after Engine had ran for about 2.5 HRS with the

cap off i heard it start to boil out of the serge tank. First thing i did before i shut it down was looked at the temp. and

it wasn't overheating. I have thought that it could be a pluged system. About an hour in to it the heater did start to

put out good heat. Also thought it could be a Head Gasket due to the miss that came after the boil out. Even with the thermostat out it dosn't seem to start boiling out until the gauge gets @ 12 0clock and will stop right after you shut

off the engine.I did check for any combustions in the coolant system and it checked out ok. Over the years i'v heard story about the head gasket problems, but didn't really know what the problem was. If im over looking something, could i get

some feed back from anyone. Thanks.

No i haven't, but i did have the cap on the last time and same thing. Its still got just water in it.

This morning i was told about the Blue Devil that i did try, thats why the thermostat is out.

[KHE]

Working on my first Northstar in a 98 sts. It came in due to the water pump tensioner bearing, belt and water pump.

Made repairs and also was asked to look at why heater wasn't working and of course the coolant system was plug

up with the good o'l Dexcol. Preformed a flush on the system and after Engine had ran for about 2.5 HRS with the

cap off i heard it start to boil out of the serge tank. First thing i did before i shut it down was looked at the temp. and

it wasn't overheating. I have thought that it could be a pluged system. About an hour in to it the heater did start to

put out good heat. Also thought it could be a Head Gasket due to the miss that came after the boil out. Even with the thermostat out it dosn't seem to start boiling out until the gauge gets @ 12 0clock and will stop right after you shut

off the engine.I did check for any combustions in the coolant system and it checked out ok. Over the years i'v heard story about the head gasket problems, but didn't really know what the problem was. If im over looking something, could i get

some feed back from anyone. Thanks.

I find it hard to believe that you ran the car for 2-1/2 hours with the radiator cap off and then it started to boil over........... that should have happeneded in less than 10 minutes with the cap off.........

[Brian Ragland]

Working on my first Northstar in a 98 sts. It came in due to the water pump tensioner bearing, belt and water pump.

Made repairs and also was asked to look at why heater wasn't working and of course the coolant system was plug

up with the good o'l Dexcol. Preformed a flush on the system and after Engine had ran for about 2.5 HRS with the

cap off i heard it start to boil out of the serge tank. First thing i did before i shut it down was looked at the temp. and

it wasn't overheating. I have thought that it could be a pluged system. About an hour in to it the heater did start to

put out good heat. Also thought it could be a Head Gasket due to the miss that came after the boil out. Even with the thermostat out it dosn't seem to start boiling out until the gauge gets @ 12 0clock and will stop right after you shut

off the engine.I did check for any combustions in the coolant system and it checked out ok. Over the years i'v heard story about the head gasket problems, but didn't really know what the problem was. If im over looking something, could i get

some feed back from anyone. Thanks.

Working on my first Northstar in a 98 sts. It came in due to the water pump tensioner bearing, belt and water pump.

Made repairs and also was asked to look at why heater wasn't working and of course the coolant system was plug

up with the good o'l Dexcol. Preformed a flush on the system and after Engine had ran for about 2.5 HRS with the

cap off i heard it start to boil out of the serge tank. First thing i did before i shut it down was looked at the temp. and

it wasn't overheating. I have thought that it could be a pluged system. About an hour in to it the heater did start to

put out good heat. Also thought it could be a Head Gasket due to the miss that came after the boil out. Even with the thermostat out it dosn't seem to start boiling out until the gauge gets @ 12 0clock and will stop right after you shut

off the engine.I did check for any combustions in the coolant system and it checked out ok. Over the years i'v heard story about the head gasket problems, but didn't really know what the problem was. If im over looking something, could i get

some feed back from anyone. Thanks.

No i haven't, but i did have the cap on the last time and same thing. Its still got just water in it.

This morning i was told about the Blue Devil that i did try, thats why the thermostat is out.

Also I never took the car out of the garage, i was looking at the brake as the flush was working and just was keeping eye

on the temp. So it still had the flush in the system when it started this.

[Brian Ragland]

Working on my first Northstar in a 98 sts. It came in due to the water pump tensioner bearing, belt and water pump.

Made repairs and also was asked to look at why heater wasn't working and of course the coolant system was plug

up with the good o'l Dexcol. Preformed a flush on the system and after Engine had ran for about 2.5 HRS with the

cap off i heard it start to boil out of the serge tank. First thing i did before i shut it down was looked at the temp. and

it wasn't overheating. I have thought that it could be a pluged system. About an hour in to it the heater did start to

put out good heat. Also thought it could be a Head Gasket due to the miss that came after the boil out. Even with the thermostat out it dosn't seem to start boiling out until the gauge gets @ 12 0clock and will stop right after you shut

off the engine.I did check for any combustions in the coolant system and it checked out ok. Over the years i'v heard story about the head gasket problems, but didn't really know what the problem was. If im over looking something, could i get

some feed back from anyone. Thanks.

I find it hard to believe that you ran the car for 2-1/2 hours with the radiator cap off and then it started to boil over........... that should have happeneded in less than 10 minutes with the cap off.........

Working on my first Northstar in a 98 sts. It came in due to the water pump tensioner bearing, belt and water pump.

Made repairs and also was asked to look at why heater wasn't working and of course the coolant system was plug

up with the good o'l Dexcol. Preformed a flush on the system and after Engine had ran for about 2.5 HRS with the

cap off i heard it start to boil out of the serge tank. First thing i did before i shut it down was looked at the temp. and

it wasn't overheating. I have thought that it could be a pluged system. About an hour in to it the heater did start to

put out good heat. Also thought it could be a Head Gasket due to the miss that came after the boil out. Even with the thermostat out it dosn't seem to start boiling out until the gauge gets @ 12 0clock and will stop right after you shut

off the engine.I did check for any combustions in the coolant system and it checked out ok. Over the years i'v heard story about the head gasket problems, but didn't really know what the problem was. If im over looking something, could i get

some feed back from anyone. Thanks.

I find it hard to believe that you ran the car for 2-1/2 hours with the radiator cap off and then it started to boil over........... that should have happeneded in less than 10 minutes with the cap off.........

Working on my first Northstar in a 98 sts. It came in due to the water pump tensioner bearing, belt and water pump.

Made repairs and also was asked to look at why heater wasn't working and of course the coolant system was plug

up with the good o'l Dexcol. Preformed a flush on the system and after Engine had ran for about 2.5 HRS with the

cap off i heard it start to boil out of the serge tank. First thing i did before i shut it down was looked at the temp. and

it wasn't overheating. I have thought that it could be a pluged system. About an hour in to it the heater did start to

put out good heat. Also thought it could be a Head Gasket due to the miss that came after the boil out. Even with the thermostat out it dosn't seem to start boiling out until the gauge gets @ 12 0clock and will stop right after you shut

off the engine.I did check for any combustions in the coolant system and it checked out ok. Over the years i'v heard story about the head gasket problems, but didn't really know what the problem was. If im over looking something, could i get

some feed back from anyone. Thanks.

I find it hard to believe that you ran the car for 2-1/2 hours with the radiator cap off and then it started to boil over........... that should have happeneded in less than 10 minutes with the cap off.........

Well i have no reason to lie about it. I keep track of my time.

With that being said as of now, 10 to 15 mins. is how long it runs right now before it will start pushing it out.

And thats cap on or off.

[Bruce Nunnally]

No i haven't, but i did have the cap on the last time and same thing. Its still got just water in it.

This morning i was told about the Blue Devil that i did try, thats why the thermostat is out.

You found no exhaust gases in the coolant, which suggests there is no problem with the headgasket. Why would you add bluedevil (sodium silicate)?

If you were to put the appropriate coolant in the system, and put the cap on the radiator, and let it run, do the fans come on low then high speed? Under proper pressure and operation does it overheat?

[KHE]

Working on my first Northstar in a 98 sts. It came in due to the water pump tensioner bearing, belt and water pump.

Made repairs and also was asked to look at why heater wasn't working and of course the coolant system was plug

up with the good o'l Dexcol. Preformed a flush on the system and after Engine had ran for about 2.5 HRS with the

cap off i heard it start to boil out of the serge tank. First thing i did before i shut it down was looked at the temp. and

it wasn't overheating. I have thought that it could be a pluged system. About an hour in to it the heater did start to

put out good heat. Also thought it could be a Head Gasket due to the miss that came after the boil out. Even with the thermostat out it dosn't seem to start boiling out until the gauge gets @ 12 0clock and will stop right after you shut

off the engine.I did check for any combustions in the coolant system and it checked out ok. Over the years i'v heard story about the head gasket problems, but didn't really know what the problem was. If im over looking something, could i get

some feed back from anyone. Thanks.

I find it hard to believe that you ran the car for 2-1/2 hours with the radiator cap off and then it started to boil over........... that should have happeneded in less than 10 minutes with the cap off.........

Working on my first Northstar in a 98 sts. It came in due to the water pump tensioner bearing, belt and water pump.

Made repairs and also was asked to look at why heater wasn't working and of course the coolant system was plug

up with the good o'l Dexcol. Preformed a flush on the system and after Engine had ran for about 2.5 HRS with the

cap off i heard it start to boil out of the serge tank. First thing i did before i shut it down was looked at the temp. and

it wasn't overheating. I have thought that it could be a pluged system. About an hour in to it the heater did start to

put out good heat. Also thought it could be a Head Gasket due to the miss that came after the boil out. Even with the thermostat out it dosn't seem to start boiling out until the gauge gets @ 12 0clock and will stop right after you shut

off the engine.I did check for any combustions in the coolant system and it checked out ok. Over the years i'v heard story about the head gasket problems, but didn't really know what the problem was. If im over looking something, could i get

some feed back from anyone. Thanks.

I find it hard to believe that you ran the car for 2-1/2 hours with the radiator cap off and then it started to boil over........... that should have happeneded in less than 10 minutes with the cap off.........

Working on my first Northstar in a 98 sts. It came in due to the water pump tensioner bearing, belt and water pump.

Made repairs and also was asked to look at why heater wasn't working and of course the coolant system was plug

up with the good o'l Dexcol. Preformed a flush on the system and after Engine had ran for about 2.5 HRS with the

cap off i heard it start to boil out of the serge tank. First thing i did before i shut it down was looked at the temp. and

it wasn't overheating. I have thought that it could be a pluged system. About an hour in to it the heater did start to

put out good heat. Also thought it could be a Head Gasket due to the miss that came after the boil out. Even with the thermostat out it dosn't seem to start boiling out until the gauge gets @ 12 0clock and will stop right after you shut

off the engine.I did check for any combustions in the coolant system and it checked out ok. Over the years i'v heard story about the head gasket problems, but didn't really know what the problem was. If im over looking something, could i get

some feed back from anyone. Thanks.

I find it hard to believe that you ran the car for 2-1/2 hours with the radiator cap off and then it started to boil over........... that should have happeneded in less than 10 minutes with the cap off.........

Well i have no reason to lie about it. I keep track of my time.

With that being said as of now, 10 to 15 mins. is how long it runs right now before it will start pushing it out.

And thats cap on or off.

Well.... you have all the answers... why are you posting on this board?

[Brian Ragland]

Sorry im new to this page and don't know who im replying to, but the anser to the block test is i didn't have the

block tester until after. With what i was hearing from other sites it was a for sure head problem. The way it played

out with the miss fire and the boiling out on top of the storys that i was being told it was likely. With other cars

i'v worked on and diesel i never had it push water out as I was flushing the system with the cap off,

it might not got up to temp. as fast but not push it out. If a system is as bad as this one i would have driven it

around but again i was getting a brake unstuck. So im listening, tell me what to do.

[Bruce Nunnally]

Kevin is the expert, but here is my input:

Anytime the Northstar overheats, people assume that the headgasket has failed. In order to actually determine if it has or not, you run the test for exhaust gases in the coolant.

You ran this test, and found no gases in the exhaust. So we would for now eliminate the headgasket from consideration.

Next we have to understand the symptoms you are seeing.

First, to test the system operation you need to again flush the system, to get the sodium silicate and water mix out as best you can, and re-install the thermostat.

While flushing the system try to determine if the system has proper flow, or if it is clogged.

Actually, while you have the thermostat out, you could clean it and test it on the stove for proper operation.

Next, refill the system with a 50/50 mix of coolant and water. Start the car and monitor the temps.

Do the radiator fans come on when you turn on the A/C?

Do the radiator fans come on at temperature when the A/C is off?

Do the fans go from low to high at the appropriate temperature?

Are the fans able to regulate the temperature at idle?

[Bruce Nunnally]

Woops fixed "Exhaust gases in the coolant"

[Brian Ragland]

Kevin is the expert, but here is my input:

Anytime the Northstar overheats, people assume that the headgasket has failed. In order to actually determine if it has or not, you run the test for exhaust gases in the coolant.

You ran this test, and found no gases in the exhaust. So we would for now eliminate the headgasket from consideration.

Next we have to understand the symptoms you are seeing.

First, to test the system operation you need to again flush the system, to get the sodium silicate and water mix out as best you can, and re-install the thermostat.

While flushing the system try to determine if the system has proper flow, or if it is clogged.

Actually, while you have the thermostat out, you could clean it and test it on the stove for proper operation.

Next, refill the system with a 50/50 mix of coolant and water. Start the car and monitor the temps.

Do the radiator fans come on when you turn on the A/C?

Do the radiator fans come on at temperature when the A/C is off?

Do the fans go from low to high at the appropriate temperature?

Are the fans able to regulate the temperature at idle?

-The fans are on w/ the A/C

-It never trys to go above operating temp.

-I beleave the fans are @ low speed @ operating temp.

-Dont think fans ever got to high speed @ operating temp.

-And as far as the gas test, it's a tester that checks for combustions in the coolant system. I might have worded it wrong Sorry.

[Bruce Nunnally]

The engine is not overheating, but it is "boiling out of the surge tank"?

Is it still doing that with a 50/50 mix of coolant, and with the cap on and the system pressurized?

One purpose of the surge tank in the NS is to vent the rest of the air out of the system; could that be what you are seeing as boiling?

[Brian Ragland]

Kevin is the expert, but here is my input:

Anytime the Northstar overheats, people assume that the headgasket has failed. In order to actually determine if it has or not, you run the test for exhaust gases in the coolant.

You ran this test, and found no gases in the exhaust. So we would for now eliminate the headgasket from consideration.

Next we have to understand the symptoms you are seeing.

First, to test the system operation you need to again flush the system, to get the sodium silicate and water mix out as best you can, and re-install the thermostat.

While flushing the system try to determine if the system has proper flow, or if it is clogged.

Actually, while you have the thermostat out, you could clean it and test it on the stove for proper operation.

Next, refill the system with a 50/50 mix of coolant and water. Start the car and monitor the temps.

Do the radiator fans come on when you turn on the A/C?

Do the radiator fans come on at temperature when the A/C is off?

Do the fans go from low to high at the appropriate temperature?

Are the fans able to regulate the temperature at idle?

-The fans are on w/ the A/C

-It never trys to go above operating temp.

-I beleave the fans are @ low speed @ operating temp.

-Dont think fans ever got to high speed @ operating temp.

-And as far as the gas test, it's a tester that checks for combustions in the coolant system. I might have worded it wrong Sorry.

Also the thermostat is new.

As far as a clogged system, what i do know is that the heater core was clogged and its not now , the upper and lower radiator

hoses are getting hot, one not as hot as other like its doing its job, purge line is flowing BUT not always at low rpm's. At high yes.

To last post: No, it will push out 2 to 3 qrts. maybe a bit more and after you shut engine off it starts sucking it back into the system.

[Brian Ragland]

Kevin is the expert, but here is my input:

Anytime the Northstar overheats, people assume that the headgasket has failed. In order to actually determine if it has or not, you run the test for exhaust gases in the coolant.

You ran this test, and found no gases in the exhaust. So we would for now eliminate the headgasket from consideration.

Next we have to understand the symptoms you are seeing.

First, to test the system operation you need to again flush the system, to get the sodium silicate and water mix out as best you can, and re-install the thermostat.

While flushing the system try to determine if the system has proper flow, or if it is clogged.

Actually, while you have the thermostat out, you could clean it and test it on the stove for proper operation.

Next, refill the system with a 50/50 mix of coolant and water. Start the car and monitor the temps.

Do the radiator fans come on when you turn on the A/C?

Do the radiator fans come on at temperature when the A/C is off?

Do the fans go from low to high at the appropriate temperature?

Are the fans able to regulate the temperature at idle?

-The fans are on w/ the A/C

-It never trys to go above operating temp.

-I beleave the fans are @ low speed @ operating temp.

-Dont think fans ever got to high speed @ operating temp.

-And as far as the gas test, it's a tester that checks for combustions in the coolant system. I might have worded it wrong Sorry.

Also the thermostat is new.

As far as a clogged system, what i do know is that the heater core was clogged and its not now , the upper and lower radiator

hoses are getting hot, one not as hot as other like its doing its job, purge line is flowing BUT not always at low rpm's. At high yes.

To last post: No, it will push out 2 to 3 qrts. maybe a bit more and after you shut engine off it starts sucking it back into the system.

The water that it does boil out is HOT like its over heated, now also the guy that was driving the car said it got hot enough

to start the shut down mode. This is what i was wondering, let say that after it gets up to temp. for so long could it start

pulling on the head bolts and do what its doing without releasing enough gases that my tester wouldn't detect it?

[Bruce Nunnally]

I am trying to step through this slowly so forgive me if this seems obvious...

If the system is boiling at normal operational temperatures of 200-240F then there is a problem with maintaining system pressure, or there is a problem with the chemical makeup of the coolant.

Plain water at normal atmospheric temperature will boil at 212F. So if you only put water in the coolant system and it is open to air, it will boil with the system operating normally.

The system needs to be closed in order to maintain pressure -- the pressure raises the boiling point of the coolant. For every pound of pressure cap rating the boiling of point of the above mixture raises 3 degrees. So a 15 psi cap raises the boiling point ~45F to 257F. A 50/50 mix of antifreeze/water raises the boiling temperature of the coolant slightly more to around 265-270F. This prevents boiling of the coolant at normal operation temperatures of 200-240F.

Do you feel the cooling system is currently sealed, and that it is holding pressure? Can you measure the temperature of the coolant? As I recall the coolant temp can be displayed on the DIC using the info buttons, but perhaps that required an option to be set.

[Bruce Nunnally]

I'll wait and see if one of the other guys can offer better advice.

[Cadillac Jim]

This is the information from my 1997 model year factory shop manual on the cooling fans, page 6-797.

Low speed on when: Engine 106 C == 229 F, or Transmission 150 C == 302 F, or A/C on.

The fans will remain on with the key off, if the coolant is 151 C == 304 F or higher

The fans will transition from low to off when: Engine 102 C == 216 F or cooler.

The fans will transition from low to high when: Engine 112 C == 234 F, or Transmission 151 C == 304 F

The fans will transition from high to low when: Engine 106 C == 229 F or cooler

The digital dashboard does not have a temperature gauge, but may have a way to read the engine coolant temperature on the DIC. I don't have a calibration table or figure for the temperature gauge on the analog dash, but I believe that the 12 O'Clock position is about 200 F == 93 C, the mark at 2 O'Clock is about 230 F == 110 C, and the final mark is about 260 F == 127 C. The temperature gauge is elecronic, driven by the IPM according to a 16-point table from temperature sent over the network from the PCM, as read from the ECT sensor, but I don't have the numbers for that 16-point table. There is a way to get the engine coolant temperature on the DIC but it requires modifying the overrides on the IPM and is a complicated operation that is not without risk of damaging the IPM.

Under most conditions the engine will run with the gauge at or near 12 O'Clock. In traffic or other conditions the gauge can move up to the 2 O'Clock mark at which point the fans will go on high speed. The temperature gauge should never go much above the 2 O'Clock mark, or above the point where the fans go on high speed.

The 1997 model year factory shop manual has a long list of things to check for engine overheating. Early on the list are checking for cooling system leaks, the cooling system holding pressure, the radiator cap being of the right type and rated at 15 psi, and the coolant being between 50% and 70% antifreeze. Next are checking the bypass line for clogging (the "bolt with a hole in it" and its hose to the surge tank), the heater core for clogging, the radiator for clogging or blockage (look between the radiator and the power steering cooler), and for crimped or collapsed radiator, bypass, or heater hoses. Also, check for low oil level (!!!) and transmission problems.

[KHE]

If you run the engine with the radiator cap off, it will push coolant out of the surge tank - perfectly normal.

The block test passed so the head gaskets are not leaking. Was the engine run for a period of time before the block test was done? Is the purge line flowing? Disconnect the 3/8" line at the top of the surge tank and start the engine. There should be a stream of coolant peeing out of the line. If not, trace the line back to the water pump area and remove the fitting that is a hollow bolt and clean out the clog.

If the purge line is flowing, drain the system, install the thermostat and refill with Dexcool. Keep track of the quantity of water you drain and compare that with the system capacity. Add straight Dex to the cooling system in order to get the concentration 50/50. I don't like to add the Dex straight but thee are no block drains on the Northstar and once you have it filled with water, it is a pain to get the concentration back to 50/50.

[Brian Ragland]

Kevin is the expert, but here is my input:

Anytime the Northstar overheats, people assume that the headgasket has failed. In order to actually determine if it has or not, you run the test for exhaust gases in the coolant.

You ran this test, and found no gases in the exhaust. So we would for now eliminate the headgasket from consideration.

Next we have to understand the symptoms you are seeing.

First, to test the system operation you need to again flush the system, to get the sodium silicate and water mix out as best you can, and re-install the thermostat.

While flushing the system try to determine if the system has proper flow, or if it is clogged.

Actually, while you have the thermostat out, you could clean it and test it on the stove for proper operation.

Next, refill the system with a 50/50 mix of coolant and water. Start the car and monitor the temps.

Do the radiator fans come on when you turn on the A/C?

Do the radiator fans come on at temperature when the A/C is off?

Do the fans go from low to high at the appropriate temperature?

Are the fans able to regulate the temperature at idle?

-The fans are on w/ the A/C

-It never trys to go above operating temp.

-I beleave the fans are @ low speed @ operating temp.

-Dont think fans ever got to high speed @ operating temp.

-And as far as the gas test, it's a tester that checks for combustions in the coolant system. I might have worded it wrong Sorry.

Also the thermostat is new.

As far as a clogged system, what i do know is that the heater core was clogged and its not now , the upper and lower radiator

hoses are getting hot, one not as hot as other like its doing its job, purge line is flowing BUT not always at low rpm's. At high yes.

To last post: No, it will push out 2 to 3 qrts. maybe a bit more and after you shut engine off it starts sucking it back into the system.

Never got to say thanks for the helpful info. So thanks, im hoping to get back on it this morning and will post

the resaults. Thanks again.