KIMO Posted September 10, 2004 Report Share Posted September 10, 2004 Hello all, this is a great site... It truly is a wealth of info. Until now I have always found the answers to my questions in the archives but now I'm at a loss. I hope I did my homework ( old board and new ) as not to annoy you guys with redundant questions. I have an 88 deville 4.5l (I know, I know its old! )and it is giving me a headache. Every once and a while it will no longer respond, it stumbles than backfires in the exhaust when I push on the gas then be ok again. It does it at all temperatures and all speeds wether it rains or not. The only trouble code that comes up is e59 (tcc temp sensor fault...where is that sensor anyways...). I adjusted the tps and isc. As per (http://www.ht4100.com/Diags/TPS&ISC.htm). I believe the procedure and specs are the same as with a 4.5l. Anyways, the tps is now giving the proper voltage throughout its range. The idle is at 550 rpm stable and quiet. It seems to be fine; in diagnostics, the throttle angle goes up and down gradually without jumping ect... The isc motor was taken apart, cleaned and greased and runs smooth when tested. The idle is fine. When look at the diagnostics in the spark advance parameter, at idle is 12 (is that ok?) I have also changed the sparkplugs (AC DELCO) and wires (AC DELCO) and the O2 sensor, EGR valve, PCV, fuel filter and air filter recently. This car does have some weirdness : I do know that the AIR pump is no longer working...I had to take it apart last winter when it seized...now it acts like an idler pulley! I plugged it up where it connects to the intake to not cause a vacuum leak. Could that be affecting the drivability to that extent intermitently? When the car runs, it's a beauty, smooth quiet and powerfull as a caddy should be. I just wish it could maintain this condition! Sorry for the long post...its my first one and i'm attempting to be as precise as I can... Thank you -KIMO- Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PAUL T Posted September 10, 2004 Report Share Posted September 10, 2004 Have you had your timing check? Have you moved the distributor any? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ranger Posted September 11, 2004 Report Share Posted September 11, 2004 I had symptoms like that years ago on a chevy Blazer. It turned out to be badly eroded distributor cap contacts and rotor contact. Might be worth a look. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KIMO Posted September 11, 2004 Author Report Share Posted September 11, 2004 Thanks for the replies...I will take a look at the cap and rotor tomorrow. As for the timing, I don't think it moved but I will check to make sure...is the spark advance reading from diagnostics a realiable source to verify timing stabillity? Because the timing notches from the harmonic balancer slipped and untill I recieve the new one I can't (don't know how to) time it. Thanks again, I'll keep you posted. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KIMO Posted September 11, 2004 Author Report Share Posted September 11, 2004 I removed dist cap...it looks ok...however there was a little grey residue on the terminals...I scraped it off. While I was there, I also checked my ign coil as per manual: " Using the high scale, attach one lead of the ohmmeter to the SECONDARY terminal in the middle of the distributor and the othr lead to the GROUND terminal and note the resistance. Next attach the ohmmeter to the SECONDARY terminal and TACH terminals and note the resistance. If both readings indicate infinite resistance, replace coil." ???What if only one shows infinite??? -With the SECONDARY and GROUND I'm getting the correct resistance. -The other reading is infinite. Anyways, I'm probably just going paranoid on details as usual...I'll take it for a spin and see what gives with the scraping of the grey stuff. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KIMO Posted September 13, 2004 Author Report Share Posted September 13, 2004 Its still doing it...somewhat less..I did disconnect the battery to verify ign coil so maybe it's still learning the values from default. I doubt it could be that rough. I'm getting discouraged. What else can I check??? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TDK Posted September 13, 2004 Report Share Posted September 13, 2004 It seems that your car has a number of issuses that might be interrelated. We also learn a bit more with each one of your posts. Are you certain the HT-4100 procedure is OK for the 4.5? I would verify the tune-up procedures and parameters, even if it meant a trip the library and a copy from one of the generic fix-it books (Chilton, etc). Granted, they are not a Cadddy Shop Manual, but this should be fairly easy, routine stuff for them to cover. I would be very concerned with how "the timing marks slipped" on the harmonic balancer. Getting that fundemental timing issue clarified - is important, since it is the basis for everything else. The air pump removal (and possibily how the various fittings were plugged) might be affecting some O2 sensors (if it had 'em) and any adjustments it made (I don't know for sure here, but it seems possible). If you noticed that it actually improved (after removing the grey deposits) - you could be on the right track with the ignition equipment. However, it might be best to simply replace the distributer cap and rotor (not high dollar parts anyway). Scraping might not be the recommended service for those terminal. It could also have some carbon traces inside and might be a"light show" inside at times. Were you careful to re-route the plug wires on the original paths and are they the original lengths? There may be some cross-firing going on under load. Finally, the temperature sensor code could be a related issue. It could be reporting problems that another piece of equipment is then trying to cure (incorrectly). I'd get that figured out before spending big bucks on something else. The good thing is that you're not afraid to get your hands dirty ! Good luck Add power to leave problems behind. Most braking is just - poor planning. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KIMO Posted September 14, 2004 Author Report Share Posted September 14, 2004 Thanks alot TDK! I guess I'll try a new dist cap and rotor and see if there is any improvements. I also checked in the Haynes manual for the tps adj and it is the same. So that should be OK. As for the TCC temp sensor...I guess I'll need to find where it is by looking at a Caddy FSM unless someone here knows ! I'll also order a new harmonic balancer for the timing. The wires were routed the same way however, they were not quite the same length; some were longer by a few inches. But the problem was there with the old wires. I uplugged the AirInjectionReaction module today to see if the problem occurs when that system engages and no air is being injected into the TB... I'll keep posting with my findings. Thanks again. -KIMO- Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KIMO Posted September 20, 2004 Author Report Share Posted September 20, 2004 I finally recieved my new harmonic balancer last friday from the dealer. It was 96.47$CND + 2.95$ for the bolt. I installed it today... It was on so tight that I had to on my back in the street and use my legs to turn the bolt of the puller to get it loose. As it was finally coming off, I noticed, with lots of cursing and swearing , that there wasn't enough clearance between the balancer and the chassis to pull it off completely. What I did was support the sub-frame with a jack at the front and unbolted the two front bolts holding the sub-frame to the body with the leg technique nonetheless. Once removed I slowly lowered the jack to lower the engine to get the necessary clearance. Of course I used jackstands throughout for safety. All this to remove the stupid balancer!!! Inspecting its condition, I saw how badly it had slipped. The timing mark was about 45 degrees off as compared to the new one!! I installed the new one, which had to be whacked into place with all my accumulated frustration and finally was secured in place with the bolt. Oh! and all this done in a busy street in downtown Montreal; tools spread out on the sidewalk; everybody asking me what I'm doing, with the sun quickly setting for the added pleasure of working in obscurity. What I wouldn't do for a garage space... Then it was time to retime the engine. Warmed up the engine till the fans kicked in then hooked up the timing light and jumped terminals A and B of the ALDL connector( hidden under the dash of course!). It was totally off. It was about at 6 degrees btdc when it should be 11 degrees. Here's the next problem: as I turn the distributor to advance it, the back part of the distributor ( with the tach and batt terminals ) touches up against the thermostat and I can't turn it anymore !!! I can get to 9 degrees and thats it... Is it possible that the distributor was removed and incorrectly repositioned causing the ECM to run out of exposed terminal room in the cap when it is trying to adjust the spark advance??? Or something like that??? Anyways I did the learning procedure in case and took out for a spin... It does respond better now. However in the 20 minutes of driving it did stumble once but only shortly...still no codes other than e59. Does anybody have any insight on my distributor issue!!! And how do I go about correcting this if need be. Help would be much appreciated and needed right about now... -KIMO- Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TDK Posted September 20, 2004 Report Share Posted September 20, 2004 Hopefully you are getting closer. Could somenone else may have removed the dist at one time? I've never heard of one "jumping time". Here is a search (distributor + 30-days and over) item that might be of help: http://caddyinfo.ipbhost.com/index.php?showtopic=2430&hl=distributor. Much of the above post matchs what you have described. There will be many other search results for you to look at as well. Even a Helms manual should cover basic distributer R & R. Sorry I don't have any experiance with a 4.9 distributer. In fact, the last time I "worked" on a distributer was waaay back when my '62 Chevy Nova sputtered while sliding sideways (a great 4-wheel drift car). I had to open the dist cap with the point of a lug wrench (only tool I had...) and found the condensor and points wire tabs had parted company at high rpm. Routinley turned over 8,000-rpm with soild lifters (dented the valve cover when a rocker-arm slipped), open airflow in/out and hogged out carb for the lil' 194 ci (w/ forged crank). What a fun car for getin' air etc. OK... I'm back now Good luck withe project. It's getting too cold up there to work on your back on the street ! Whoops! that last sentence didn't read quite right... Add power to leave problems behind. Most braking is just - poor planning. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KIMO Posted September 21, 2004 Author Report Share Posted September 21, 2004 Thanks TDK...those posts are really helpfull. I will make more research in this board for similar issues. Oh and today, my car was idling worse than ever. Yesterday was fine but not today...Go figure!!! Guess it's time to work the streets again... -KIMO- Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KIMO Posted September 21, 2004 Author Report Share Posted September 21, 2004 TDK...Hmmm...62' Chevy Nova...I like! Not sure I'd drive it that hard...then again I probably would! You don't have any pictures of by any chance eh? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
franey Posted September 21, 2004 Report Share Posted September 21, 2004 HOW MANY MILES ON CAR? TAKE NUMBER ONE PLUG OUT AND BRING PISTON TO TOP OF NUMBER ONE CYLINDER. TIMING MARK SHOULD LINE UP AND ROTOR CAP SHOULD BE POINTING TO PLUG WIRE POSITION FOR NUMBER ONE CYLINDER. IF IT HAS A LOT OF MILES ON THE MOTOR AND THA THREE DO NOT LINE UP , IT MAY HAVE JUMPED TIME ON YOU , DUE TO WORN GEARS OR STRETCHED CHAIN OR A COMBO OF BOTH. YOU MAY ALSO HAVE A WORN OUT DISTRUBUTOR SHAFT , AND THE BOTTOM GEAR, IS BADLY WORN. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KIMO Posted September 21, 2004 Author Report Share Posted September 21, 2004 Thanks franey, The car has 188 000 km on it. I will line everything up remove and inspect the dist shaft, gear ect.. and get back with findings. I just can't resist the need to complain about the location of the no 1 sparkplug...it's partially covered by the AIR pump bracket ( you can't see anything or feel anything with the one finger you can manage to wiggle in there!) and evertime I want to get to it I have to remove the AIR pump. I tried to do it without removing it. I did manage to remove it but when I tried getting the new one in ther in turned into a nightmare. First, with limited space and no visibility, I couldn't line it up with the hole and eventually dropped in the crevace. Trying to tease it back out again, I dropped my small magnetic screwdriver in there aswell followed by an assorment of sticks and whatnot (was getting desperate ) then cut myself pulling my arm out of there...Bleeding and frustrated I started unbolting the AIR pump...I was using a long socket and working too fast before I noticed that the bolt was out of the tread but not out of the bracket and that my ratchet was now jammed up against the chassis in such a way that I couldn't pull it out or screw it back in...Now I had a sparkplug and various tools stuck in the crevace a ratchet stuck against the chassis and a girlfriend reminding me that I had told her it would not take more than 45 min !!! Obviously, I was not the only one who noticed this. When I had finally changed the plugs, all the old plugs were Champions exept for the no 1 which was still the original AC DELCO...guess they didn't feel like dealing with it. I know...I know... don't cut corners be patient ect..I learned my lesson, trust me. Wow that feels better! Really sorry about that! -KIMO- Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KHE Posted September 21, 2004 Report Share Posted September 21, 2004 Does the car run any better with a new set of plugs? With 188,000 kms on the original no. 1 plug, did it have any ground electrode left???? Kevin '93 Fleetwood Brougham '05 Deville '04 Deville 2013 Silverado Z71 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KIMO Posted September 30, 2004 Author Report Share Posted September 30, 2004 Yes, the car does run a little better with new plugs and wires. I guess it can't be the original 1 plug, but it was considerably more used than the other ones. It actually runs better with every little thing I do to it. However the major problem still persists!!!! Last week I took the distributor out. I noticed that the rotor had alot of play in it...I could rotate it a few degrees with my hand. Everything else looked fine; the points are ok with no magnetic residue anywhere, the shaft has no visible damage and slides in and out smoothly, the bearings also turn smoothly. The gear did show a fair amount of wear probably causing the play. I ordered a new gear and installed it today. The play is greatly reduced but still moves, albeit very very little. I reinstalled everything and reallingned the distributor so that I can rotate it enough to time it. Redid the static timing to 11 degrees. Took the car for a spin for about 15 minutes and everything was perfect...I was happy...later tonight my girlfriend tells me the car did it again! I tried myself and sure enough it does!!! When the car runs it runs great and then for a few seconds it will do the ol'stumble. I'm really getting sick of this. Anybody, what else can it be...could the FPR or gas pump be causing this or some kind sensor.... I'm going to to cry a bit and tackle it again tommorow....oh yeah and HELP!!!! -KIMO- Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KIMO Posted October 28, 2004 Author Report Share Posted October 28, 2004 Of course it's still there.... I checked the fuel pressure at the shraedder valve and it reads a steady 10 psi even when the stumbling occurs. So I guess the fuel pump is OK. I also took the time to verify the resistance of the fuel injectors by unplugging them and taking the reading across both terminals. Both read 2.1 ohms exactly. In the Haynes manual it says that the fuel injector resistance should be between 1.16-1.36 ohms. Although it would be logic that this could cause the problem, I wonder if anybody can verify what the resistance should be from another source before I throw more money at this thing. Please... Thank you.. -KIMO- Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
adallak Posted October 28, 2004 Report Share Posted October 28, 2004 I checked the fuel pressure at the shraedder valve and it reads a steady 10 psi even when the stumbling occurs. So I guess the fuel pump is OK The FSM for 4.9 which is pretty similar to 4.5 says 40-50 psi when ignition is ON. The saddest thing in life is wasted talent Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
adallak Posted October 28, 2004 Report Share Posted October 28, 2004 '' fuel pressure should be 32-38 psi depending on engine load and altitude. By disconnecting the vacuum hose, engine load compensation is taken away from the fuel pressure regulator. Pressure should rise approximately 45 psi. If it is higher than 50 psi replase FPR. If it is lower than 40 psi check the fuel pump operation, filter and electrical circuits". This is what the manual advises. The saddest thing in life is wasted talent Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KHE Posted October 28, 2004 Report Share Posted October 28, 2004 I checked the fuel pressure at the shraedder valve and it reads a steady 10 psi even when the stumbling occurs. So I guess the fuel pump is OK The FSM for 4.9 which is pretty similar to 4.5 says 40-50 psi when ignition is ON. The 1988 4.5 engine has throttle body injection. The fuel pressure should be 9-13 psi. Kevin '93 Fleetwood Brougham '05 Deville '04 Deville 2013 Silverado Z71 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KIMO Posted November 25, 2004 Author Report Share Posted November 25, 2004 At long last...I solved the problem!!! Lately the problem was getting less intermitent and more consistent so I was able to track it down better. Heres how it went down... It was brought to my intention that when the car was exibiting the symptoms (hesitation, stumbling, missing and eventually backfiring) when I was trying to park the car, all of the above would instantly go away when I would shift into reverse...only to come back again in any other gear. So from there, I started looking at all the parameters in diagnostics that were inconsistent between reverse and the other gears. I noticed that parameter P.0.8. ( ecm timing advance) would jump all over the place in the other gears but stabilize at 12 degrees on reverse. So I figure that timing must be at a default setting on reverse and ecm controlled (or at least trying to) in the other gears. Then on the highway, when the car was doing it again, I looked at P.0.8. and predictably, the ecm timing was going from 30 degrees advance and dropping to like 0 degrees then eventually back when it would stabilize. On the 4.5l 1988 Deville timing is controlled by the ecm with RPM and crank position input from a signal provided by the HEI distributor. The ecm also takes input to adjust timing with input from other sensors such as temp sensor, map sensor ect... They were tested and operating within range. So it had to be somewere between the distributor ( TDK YOUR INSIGHT HERE!!) and the ecm...I did a contnuity check on the four wire connector to the distributor and it was OK. To make an already long story short (sorry about that!) it was a faulty ground and connections in the distributor...after cleaning (with a fine sand paper) all the connections to and from the HEI module, the dist ground( just were the 4 wires enter the distributor there is a kind of plastic grommet held down by a screw, that screw is connects a black/red stipe wire which is the dist ground), and the ground at the capacitor hold-down screw. Bingo! its been six days and the caddy runs fine... I did get myself a FSM for the 4.5l 1988 deville and did a lot of test with it and I would probably still have my head under the hood without it and this forum. Cheers!!! -KIMO- Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TDK Posted November 25, 2004 Report Share Posted November 25, 2004 Congratulations ! Your observation - about the problem going away in reverse - was outstanding ! I don't think I have ever heard about that "feature" before; a default timing etc, in reverse only. It makes sense and may come in handy for others to exploit. You should be dang proud of your persistance, mechanical ability, and the sense to get the factory service manual. Then to actually utilize it to conjure up your own dianostic and eventual solution - was amazing. Again, the bit about noting a distinct differance in revese was simply brilliant. Verifying your postualtion via field testing was also fine workmanship. I can only guess the hoots and hollars - when you finally "caught in the act" ! Well done and well documented ! It was gettin' too dang cold out there too huh? Add power to leave problems behind. Most braking is just - poor planning. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Oldgamer Posted November 26, 2004 Report Share Posted November 26, 2004 I removed dist cap...it looks ok...however there was a little grey residue on the terminals...I scraped it off. While I was there, I also checked my ign coil as per manual: " Using the high scale, attach one lead of the ohmmeter to the SECONDARY terminal in the middle of the distributor and the othr lead to the GROUND terminal and note the resistance. Next attach the ohmmeter to the SECONDARY terminal and TACH terminals and note the resistance. If both readings indicate infinite resistance, replace coil." ???What if only one shows infinite??? -With the SECONDARY and GROUND I'm getting the correct resistance. -The other reading is infinite. Anyways, I'm probably just going paranoid on details as usual...I'll take it for a spin and see what gives with the scraping of the grey stuff. I guess it's because it has semicondactor inside, so THAT'S FINE if "only one shows infinite". You did amasing job. I don't remember for sure, I guess that was you another day resolving the problem with you car spending 30min in a public library with service manual. Congratulations! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KIMO Posted November 30, 2004 Author Report Share Posted November 30, 2004 Thanks alot guys, I really appreciate it!!! -KIMO- Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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