JohnnyG Posted September 1, 2004 Report Share Posted September 1, 2004 My neighbor has a 2000 Aurora. He started it yesterday morning and the check engine light came on. I told him to take it to the dealership so they could read the codes and make the repairs. The dealership read the codes, got a P0410, secondary air injection system problem. The tech said it was probably some water that got into the air pump. (duh) The tech reset the light, charged him $30.00, and sent him on his way. Well, needless to say, two stops later the light was back on. What is the typical failure in the secondary air injection circuit? Does anyone else think that maybe it could be just carboned up? My initial advice was to go out and drive it hard for a bit, using the WOT manuever, but I thought I'd check with you guys first. Thanks. Never underestimate the amount of a persons greed. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Logan Posted September 1, 2004 Report Share Posted September 1, 2004 I dont have it in front of me....but I think I have seen that code. The secondary pump can ingest water and dirt. It kind of kills the motor. With a Tech 2 you should be able to turn it on for testing. Chances are it will not sound very good..... Older Z28s use to suck in water....in cold weather the water would freeze the motor. Then the motor would blow the fuse..... Logan Diagnostic LLC www.airbagcrash.com www.logandieselusa.com www.ledfix.com www.ledfix.com/yukontaillightrepair.html www.ledfix.com/ledreplacements.html www.ledfix.com/j42385toolrental.html Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JohnnyG Posted September 1, 2004 Author Report Share Posted September 1, 2004 I take it then that the secondary air pump is driven electrically, right? The only puzzeling thing is that the car was in the garage overnight and it hadn't rained in a while. I guess the motor can just fail. Also puzzeling is why the tech did not use the Tech2 to fully diagnose the problem. Never underestimate the amount of a persons greed. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JohnnyG Posted September 15, 2004 Author Report Share Posted September 15, 2004 So, the air pump was replaced. It was under the fender well, and electrically driven. Check engine light out............for two stops. Back to the dealer. Now they say it's the O2 sensors and ordered two for the guy! Why the confusion? Why was the 0410 code set in the first place when it could be the o2 sensors? BTW, no credit for the mis-diagnosis. Never underestimate the amount of a persons greed. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JohnnyG Posted September 16, 2004 Author Report Share Posted September 16, 2004 Thanks for the input Guru. I just see this guy being "led down the primrose path" and would like to give him some good advice. I suppose I'm struggeling with the particulars of OBDII right now. It just seems that codes concerning the O2 sensors should have been set if they are indeed bad..........not just the 0410. If you're telling me there is no possibility of a mix-up with the 0410 code, and that they still should be looking at the air pump, at least I can tell him something. I suppose these are on a main line breaker with auto reset capabilities..which may explain that the light doesn't come on for a short time. I may just advise him to go to another dealer....not that I haven't already. Never underestimate the amount of a persons greed. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Logan Posted September 16, 2004 Report Share Posted September 16, 2004 There are 2 versions....single and dual airpumps. Something very simple sounds like it is causing the failure.. Here is the diagnostics on the single pump version. I suspect the dual pump version is for California emissions. DTC P0410 Dual Pump System Circuit Description The 2 secondary air injection (AIR) pumps on this vehicle lower the tail pipe emissions during start-up. The AIR system consists of the following items: The AIR pumps The shut off valves The vacuum control solenoid valve The system hoses and piping The AIR relays, the fuses, and the related wiring The powertrain control module (PCM) uses the AIR relays in order to control the AIR pumps. The PCM also controls the AIR vacuum control solenoid valve that supplies the vacuum to the AIR shut-off valves. When the AIR system is inactive, the AIR shut-off valves prevent air flow in either direction. When the AIR system is active, the PCM applies ground to 1 of the AIR relays and to the vacuum control solenoid valve. After a few seconds, the PCM applies ground to the other AIR relay. Fresh air flows from the pumps, through the system hoses, past the shut-off valves, and into the exhaust stream. The air helps the catalyst to quickly reach a working temperature, lowering the tail pipe emissions during a start-up. The PCM tests the AIR system for the following conditions: The AIR system, including both banks, resulting in diagnostic trouble code (DTC) P0410 The AIR system bank , resulting in DTC P1415 The AIR system bank 2, resulting in DTC P1416 The AIR relays, resulting in DTC P0418 and DTC P0419 The AIR vacuum control solenoid, resulting in DTC P0412 The PCM runs a passive test and an active test in order to diagnose the AIR system. Both tests involve a response from the fuel control heated oxygen sensors (HO2S)--bank 1 sensor 1 and HO2S bank 2 sensor 2. If both passive tests pass, the PCM takes no further action. If either part of the passive test fails or is inconclusive, the PCM initiates the active tests. If the PCM determines that the HO2S voltages did not respond as expected during the tests, DTC P0410 sets. For further information concerning the AIR system and the system tests, refer to Secondary Air Injection (AIR) System Description . Conditions for Running the DTC Passive Tests DTCs P0102, P0103 P0106, P0107, P0108, P0112, P0113, P0116, P0117, P0118, P0121, P0122, P0123, P0131, P0132, P0133, P0134, P0135, P0137, P0138, P0140, P0141, P0151, P0152, P0153, P0154, P0155, P0157, P0158, P0161, P0200, P0300, P0335, P0336, P0351, P0352, P0353, P0354, P0355, P0356, P0357, P0358, P0506, P0507, P1133, P1134, P1138, and P1171 are not set. The engine is running for more than 2 seconds. The engine speed is more than 1000 RPM. The throttle is steady The engine load is less than 80 percent . The system voltage is more than 10.5 volts. The mass air flow (MAF) is less than 35 g/s. The air/fuel ratio is more than 11.1:1. The engine coolant temperature (ECT) is between 5-110°C (41-230°F). The intake air temperature (IAT) is between 5-72.5°C (41-162.5°F). The power enrichment or the deceleration fuel cut-off (DFCO) are not active. The start up engine coolant temperature (ECT) is between 5-80°C (41-176°F). Active Tests The engine is running. The engine speed is more than 1000 RPM. The throttle is steady. The engine load is less than 80 percent . The system voltage is more than 10.5 volts. The MAF is less than 75 g/s. The fuel system is in Closed-Loop operation. The evaporative emissions (EVAP) purge is active. The engine coolant temperature (ECT) is more than 68°C (154°F). The short term fuel trim is between -3 and +3 percent. The fuel trim is in cells 4, 5, or 6. Conditions for Setting the DTC Passive Tests During operation of the AIR pumps, the HO2S voltage for both fuel control sensors is more than 300 mV for 12 seconds (350 mV for 9 seconds during a hot start). When the AIR pumps are turned OFF, the HO2S voltage for both fuel control sensors is below 600 mV for 25 seconds (7 seconds during a hot start). The condition is present for 3 occurrences. Active Test The HO2S voltage for both fuel control sensors is more than 250 mV for 3 occurrences. Action Taken When the DTC Sets The control module illuminates the malfunction indicator lamp (MIL) on the second consecutive ignition cycle that the diagnostic runs and fails. The control module records the operating conditions at the time the diagnostic fails. The first time the diagnostic fails, the control module stores this information in the Failure Records. If the diagnostic reports a failure on the second consecutive ignition cycle, the control module records the operating conditions at the time of the failure. The control module writes the operating conditions to the Freeze Frame and updates the Failure Records. Conditions for Clearing the MIL/DTC The control module turns OFF the malfunction indicator lamp (MIL) after 3 consecutive ignition cycles that the diagnostic runs and does not fail. A current DTC, Last Test Failed, clears when the diagnostic runs and passes. A history DTC clears after 40 consecutive warm-up cycles, if no failures are reported by this or any other emission related diagnostic. Clear the MIL and the DTC with a scan tool. Diagnostic Aids Notice Use the connector test adapter kit J 35616-A for any test that requires probing the following items: The PCM harness connectors The electrical center fuse/relay cavities The component terminals The component harness connector Using this kit will prevent damage caused by the improper probing of connector terminals. Reviewing the Failure Records vehicle mileage since the diagnostic test last failed may help to diagnose the condition. The information may also help to determine how often the condition that set the DTC occurs. Logan Diagnostic LLC www.airbagcrash.com www.logandieselusa.com www.ledfix.com www.ledfix.com/yukontaillightrepair.html www.ledfix.com/ledreplacements.html www.ledfix.com/j42385toolrental.html Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JohnnyG Posted September 17, 2004 Author Report Share Posted September 17, 2004 Sheesh! No wonder these guys had a problem with the diagnosis! Anyway, the car was fixed today, and thanks for all your help. It turned out to be a "vacuum flapper leak" which sounds enough to me to be a vacuum control solenoid valve. The owner said the work was done for free.....of course the cost of the new air pump, which probably was NOT needed, must be added. Don't ask me what happened to the O2 sensors, he didn't know. The owner stated that he would sometimes hear a hissing sound under the dash in the passenger area, since the car was new. This usually happened at about 60+ mph and cruising........don't know if the two issues are related. Maybe they just needed some time to research the problem. There is hope yet for the dealers, even down here. Never underestimate the amount of a persons greed. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JohnnyG Posted September 17, 2004 Author Report Share Posted September 17, 2004 BTW Logan, thanks for the effort you put into this for me. The diagnosis "program" clearly shows why the light would stay out for two stops. This gives me a lot of insight to the complexity of the ODBII diagnostics. A LOT more involved than I first thought. Incredible in fact. Never underestimate the amount of a persons greed. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Home Mechanic Posted January 27, 2012 Report Share Posted January 27, 2012 There are 2 versions....single and dual airpumps. Something very simple sounds like it is causing the failure.. Here is the diagnostics on the single pump version. I suspect the dual pump version is for California emissions. DTC P0410 Dual Pump System Circuit Description The 2 secondary air injection (AIR) pumps on this vehicle lower the tail pipe emissions during start-up. The AIR system consists of the following items: The AIR pumps The shut off valves The vacuum control solenoid valve The system hoses and piping The AIR relays, the fuses, and the related wiring The powertrain control module (PCM) uses the AIR relays in order to control the AIR pumps. The PCM also controls the AIR vacuum control solenoid valve that supplies the vacuum to the AIR shut-off valves. When the AIR system is inactive, the AIR shut-off valves prevent air flow in either direction. When the AIR system is active, the PCM applies ground to 1 of the AIR relays and to the vacuum control solenoid valve. After a few seconds, the PCM applies ground to the other AIR relay. Fresh air flows from the pumps, through the system hoses, past the shut-off valves, and into the exhaust stream. The air helps the catalyst to quickly reach a working temperature, lowering the tail pipe emissions during a start-up. The PCM tests the AIR system for the following conditions: The AIR system, including both banks, resulting in diagnostic trouble code (DTC) P0410 The AIR system bank , resulting in DTC P1415 The AIR system bank 2, resulting in DTC P1416 The AIR relays, resulting in DTC P0418 and DTC P0419 The AIR vacuum control solenoid, resulting in DTC P0412 The PCM runs a passive test and an active test in order to diagnose the AIR system. Both tests involve a response from the fuel control heated oxygen sensors (HO2S)--bank 1 sensor 1 and HO2S bank 2 sensor 2. If both passive tests pass, the PCM takes no further action. If either part of the passive test fails or is inconclusive, the PCM initiates the active tests. If the PCM determines that the HO2S voltages did not respond as expected during the tests, DTC P0410 sets. For further information concerning the AIR system and the system tests, refer to Secondary Air Injection (AIR) System Description . Conditions for Running the DTC Passive Tests DTCs P0102, P0103 P0106, P0107, P0108, P0112, P0113, P0116, P0117, P0118, P0121, P0122, P0123, P0131, P0132, P0133, P0134, P0135, P0137, P0138, P0140, P0141, P0151, P0152, P0153, P0154, P0155, P0157, P0158, P0161, P0200, P0300, P0335, P0336, P0351, P0352, P0353, P0354, P0355, P0356, P0357, P0358, P0506, P0507, P1133, P1134, P1138, and P1171 are not set. The engine is running for more than 2 seconds. The engine speed is more than 1000 RPM. The throttle is steady The engine load is less than 80 percent . The system voltage is more than 10.5 volts. The mass air flow (MAF) is less than 35 g/s. The air/fuel ratio is more than 11.1:1. The engine coolant temperature (ECT) is between 5-110°C (41-230°F). The intake air temperature (IAT) is between 5-72.5°C (41-162.5°F). The power enrichment or the deceleration fuel cut-off (DFCO) are not active. The start up engine coolant temperature (ECT) is between 5-80°C (41-176°F). Active Tests The engine is running. The engine speed is more than 1000 RPM. The throttle is steady. The engine load is less than 80 percent . The system voltage is more than 10.5 volts. The MAF is less than 75 g/s. The fuel system is in Closed-Loop operation. The evaporative emissions (EVAP) purge is active. The engine coolant temperature (ECT) is more than 68°C (154°F). The short term fuel trim is between -3 and +3 percent. The fuel trim is in cells 4, 5, or 6. Conditions for Setting the DTC Passive Tests During operation of the AIR pumps, the HO2S voltage for both fuel control sensors is more than 300 mV for 12 seconds (350 mV for 9 seconds during a hot start). When the AIR pumps are turned OFF, the HO2S voltage for both fuel control sensors is below 600 mV for 25 seconds (7 seconds during a hot start). The condition is present for 3 occurrences. Active Test The HO2S voltage for both fuel control sensors is more than 250 mV for 3 occurrences. Action Taken When the DTC Sets The control module illuminates the malfunction indicator lamp (MIL) on the second consecutive ignition cycle that the diagnostic runs and fails. The control module records the operating conditions at the time the diagnostic fails. The first time the diagnostic fails, the control module stores this information in the Failure Records. If the diagnostic reports a failure on the second consecutive ignition cycle, the control module records the operating conditions at the time of the failure. The control module writes the operating conditions to the Freeze Frame and updates the Failure Records. Conditions for Clearing the MIL/DTC The control module turns OFF the malfunction indicator lamp (MIL) after 3 consecutive ignition cycles that the diagnostic runs and does not fail. A current DTC, Last Test Failed, clears when the diagnostic runs and passes. A history DTC clears after 40 consecutive warm-up cycles, if no failures are reported by this or any other emission related diagnostic. Clear the MIL and the DTC with a scan tool. Diagnostic Aids Notice Use the connector test adapter kit J 35616-A for any test that requires probing the following items: The PCM harness connectors The electrical center fuse/relay cavities The component terminals The component harness connector Using this kit will prevent damage caused by the improper probing of connector terminals. Reviewing the Failure Records vehicle mileage since the diagnostic test last failed may help to diagnose the condition. The information may also help to determine how often the condition that set the DTC occurs. Hi Logan: Are the passive and active tests only ran during the cold starting process? I get a P0410 code are the car has been warm for 15-20 minutes Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Logan Posted January 27, 2012 Report Share Posted January 27, 2012 Hmmmm....not sure why these posts from many years ago are getting new comments lately....2004? Really? There is a system test that runs the air pump after the car is being driven for a while. You may even notice the headlamps dim for a second..often the air pump code will show up 10-15 minutes after start up. That said...IMO..during this time of year..the cool, wet, winter weather can create false air pump codes. I would clear the code and wait till spring to see if there is really a problem. Logan Diagnostic LLC www.airbagcrash.com www.logandieselusa.com www.ledfix.com www.ledfix.com/yukontaillightrepair.html www.ledfix.com/ledreplacements.html www.ledfix.com/j42385toolrental.html Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Home Mechanic Posted January 27, 2012 Report Share Posted January 27, 2012 Thanks for the input! I'm new to this forum and am probing around for any nuggets to help diagnose. THANKS!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BodybyFisher Posted January 27, 2012 Report Share Posted January 27, 2012 Thanks for the input! I'm new to this forum and am probing around for any nuggets to help diagnose. THANKS!! I posted a link for you, to Logan's thread on the P0410 on your other thread Pre-1995 - DTC codes OBD1 >> 1996 and newer - DTC codes OBD2 >> https://www.obd-codes.com/trouble_codes/gm/obd_codes.htm How to check for codes Caddyinfo How To Technical Archive >> http://www.caddyinfo.com/wordpress/cadillac-how-to-faq/ Cadillac History & Specifications Year by Year http://www.motorera.com/cadillac/index.htm Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JohnnyG Posted January 28, 2012 Author Report Share Posted January 28, 2012 It was certainly nice to see one of my posts from 2004! At least I was nice back then. The strangest thing though was that the "GURU'S" reply was deleted, as if he didn't even exist, unfortunate. Just for the record, the owner in question still misses the Aurora and its OUTSTANDING fuel economy. The Aurora was sold for a Nissan Maxima, which he HATED (CVT tramsmission)and TERRIBLE fuel economy. That car was sold for a Chevy Malibu, which is better, but not as good as the Aurora. Never underestimate the amount of a persons greed. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bruce Nunnally Posted January 28, 2012 Report Share Posted January 28, 2012 The whole reason we keep the posts online is that they are useful for reference. Google and other search engines help people find the needles in the haystacks of historical posts. Bruce 2023 Cadillac CT4-V Blackwing Follow me on: Twitter Instagram Youtube Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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