Toyota burns me up

[winterset]

I cannot believe that this uncontrolled acceleration in the Toyotas doesn't even create a Check engine light, or even save a code. I was watching a program that showed a professor simulate uncontrolled acceleration by cross circuting the accelerator with a wire, and demonstrate it does not set a code. The show also interviewed customers who experienced this problem - and crashed. They were visited by Toyota field reps who also told them it's not the car it must have been you who caused the accident. I ask - how can Toyota have gotten away with this - are there no mandates in OBD II on what codes get stored, or is this drive by wire thing too new? why is it that if my O2 sensor doesn't heat up fast enough it throws a code in my caddy? Are US engineers too honest & forthcoming with their produts or are the Japanese deceitful?

[CarlaValentine]

That is really strange that it doesn't set a code. Any wiring issue in my caddy will set a code, no matter how minuscule it may seem. Even the dash lights set a code if something is wrong. How could there NOT be a code for an electrical accelerator problem?

It doesn't seem likely to me that a fault in the accelerator wiring could cause a fault in its ability to set a code, but perhaps there isn't a way (yet) to make it set one. We may never know for sure. Perhaps (this is speculation) Toyota was aware that because the electrical acceleration was so new a concept, that there could be future problems with it that they didn't find in their testing, so they kept it from setting a code to prevent the blame from being placed on them in the event that something went wrong and/or it caused an accident...hence them saying it was the driver's fault, not the car's...

Regardless, there should be something in the car's computer that will tell you what went wrong.... It's not like people who are sending their Toyotas in and complaining about the problem have anything to gain, except to get their car working as it should, so why would they make something up? The same can't be said for people who have been in accidents as a result of the problem...they do have something to gain from it. I think Toyota realizes that if they can be put at fault for these accidents, they will lose out. Placing the blame entirely on the drivers in these accidents so they don't take a loss when they KNOW there is something wrong with their cars is, in my opinion, very dishonest.

[BodybyFisher]

Can you imagine if this was GM?

[MrEldo97]

"Are US engineers too honest & forthcoming with their produts or are the Japanese deceitful?" IMO, I think it's the nature of modern business. Every aspect is dollarized to the most minute degree, cost is wrung out of products and production without regard to the customer or the quality of the product. American auto journalists have been biased towards Japanese cars for forty years and the Japanese manufacturers have ridden the crest of that wave bringing us to where we are today. And just maybe, the size of companies and technology at all levels are just becoming too complex to manage.

To add to my point: as an car consumer I am rebelling on a personal level to all of this technology. I don't like it.

I get in my car, put the key in the ignition, fire it up, put it in drive, aim it and away I go. I'm happy. I like AC, elctric windows, leather seats, decent tunes and a good ride. That's it, pretty simple. My two cars are a '97 and a '95 and there is nothing out there today that makes me want to spend the kinda loot I would have to in order to buy something larger than a pregnant roller skate. Dubious technology is a cost I'm unwilling to pay for.

Hell, maybe I'm just old and cranky at 58...

[BodybyFisher]

Sports is all about anticipating your opponents moves. For GM that opponent has taken many forms, foreign car manufacturers, oil prices, political changes, consumer preferences and dependability. MrEldo97, it could be the size of GM that doomed them, they are sort of like the Titanic, seeing the the iceberg but not being able to turn to miss it. It turns but it turns too late, by the time it gets to market, its demand is not there or waning. When the market changes, they stick in there too long. I don't think they anticipated market changes well. I also don't think they SCREAMED LOUD ENOUGH when foreign car manufacturers were permitted to build in THIS COUNTRY with TAX BREAKS and NON UNION LABOR. At some point they needed to have the playing field leveled, as they are GOING TO GO bankrupt (the ICEBERG) if changes are NOT made.

Don't get me wrong, GM has done some amazing things, but I believe cost constraints and size slowed their reaction time, not just with products but with changes due to manufacturing issues. It took NASA three years to fix ORINGS that leaked super heated gases and blew up the shuttle but when they fail, they fail on a world wide stage in dramatic fashion. I don't know if a lack of testing causes their problems or their drive to build a quality product as cheaply as they could and the bean counters hurt them.

So what can happen with an uneven playing field? Quality issues and a short term mentality that leads to management apathy. When you have the President of the US making negative statements about GM and FORD to the WORLD!!!, what the hell do you expect. There are a few things that BUSH did that infuriated me, this was one of them, the CORRECT response was in spite of the fact that they are strapped with union labor, they have caught up to the foreign competition and are building a good car! RAHRAHRAH... check this link

http://local.theoild...1/26/15350/1301

[MrEldo97]

To your points Bodybyfisher. I agree. The USG has had incompetent, destructive trade policy called "Free Trade" in force for forty years. The end result of this massive swindle is the hollowing out of our economy, the wholsale transfer of our manufacuting to communist China, the sellout of 9 million American jobs to the coolie supplying Asian countries since 2002, an unsustainable monthly trade deficit, diminshed international strategic position, massive fraud and criminality by Corporate America the past two years and a totally bought off and feckless government. I'm more angry and disgusted with the USG now than I was 40 years ago...even after a face full of tear gas.

I eagerly await the day when with my "toes in the water, azz in the sand, not a care in the world, cold beer in my hand." I'm looking for my Carribean beach now.

[Texas Jim]

Just a couple of ramdom thoughts here.................... :D

Mr Eldo97 was speaking of technology getting too complex.

I think that is a very good possibility.

I have been told by my Cadillac dealer, that there are 23 separate computers in my car, along with about 185 sensors with over "TWO MILES" of wire, feeding information thru a built in local area network to make everything work right.

ASSUMING that this is accurate....that is a lot of stuff that "COULD" go wrong.

I have had a couple of electrical glitches that were fixed under warranty.

The drivers Air Conditioned seat quit cooling.

Nothing major has ever went wrong with it... yet.

But... I have been wondering...when this car gets to be 8 or 10 years old... what kind of problems will it have, and how expensive will it be to fix it?

I sometimes wish I had kept my 1980 Sedan deVille and my 1984 Fleetwood Brougham deElegence.

At least I could work on them (AND knew how) without having to have $50,000 dollars worth of specialized tools.

Like I said......just thinking out loud.....

[MrEldo97]

"23 separate computers"!

Yikes!!!!!!

My point...

This is why I drive old cars. As much as I would like an '02 Eldo, I don't want magnetic shocks... or 23 computers...

When the AJ16 craps out in my XJS an LT1 will replace it or maybe a C3 Corvette. How old's the LT1 25 years?

This new stuff is just too insomnia inducing for my taste.

[JimD]

T

....are there no mandates in OBD II on what codes get stored....

I'm going to make a leap and take this code question to mean a "P" code that is programmed to flip on the Service Engine Soon message. Although we have all read on this board and others that many (most?) drivers are capable of ignoring a Service Engine Soon message for weeks or months. That leaves us with a fractionally small percentage of car owners/drivers who would take the time/effort or pay someone else to determine what codes are set and do it on a timely basis.

And by far the majority of codes that can flag the Service Engine Soon message are emissions related. EPA mandated.

....or is this drive by wire thing too new?

It's relatively new to the automobile industry but the commercial passenger aircraft you and your family and friends crawl into every day of the year have used fly-by-wire systems between the controls in the flight deck and the control surfaces on the wings/elevator/rudder for years.

....why is it that if my O2 sensor doesn't heat up fast enough it throws a code in my caddy?

EPA mandate; emission control device.

And no, I'm not defending Toyota. This whole debacle is starting to smell like a cover-up of (something). I have said in another thread that my devious mind leads me straight to an RF interference situation that was not considered in the Toyota throttle valve control circuitry design/layout. Carpets and floor mats are a smoke screen.

[BodybyFisher]

Jim we used to have a Powertrain Engineer here whose job it was to isolate and identify and eliminate RF/EMF interference. I spoke to him a number of times, he was a real gentleman and a pleasure to speak with. My 96 AM radio had immobilizing interferance from the strut electronics. His name alludes me right now you might remember him.

[JimD]

[BodybyFisher]

Here is an interesting thought, GM is owned by the government, isn't it a conflict of interest for them to be judging Toyota guilty before a trial or before the facts are revealed?

JimD

"But Toyota is increasingly facing allegations from plaintiffs’ attorneys that electronic interference with the systems in the vehicle may be causing the acceleration to go haywire"

http://hotair.com/greenroom/archives/2010/02/23/begun-the-toyota-war-has/

This is going to be interesting

http://hotair.com/archives/2010/02/22/congress-vs-toyota-sudden-deceleration/

[JimD]

....I have been told by my Cadillac dealer, that there are 23 separate computers in my car

I suspect this dealer's words should not be confused with technically accurate information.

There "might" be 23 modules in your year/model, but even that number is likely too high.

And not all the (however many) modules contain a microprocessor.

The presence of a microprocessor is what qualifies the module to be labeled a computer.

...along with about 185 sensors with over "TWO MILES" of wire

Again I wince at the number of sensors and ask you how far your house is from the generators that produce your electricity?

ASSUMING that this is accurate....

Sure sounds like dealer hyperbole to me.

But... I have been wondering...when this car gets to be 8 or 10 years old... what kind of problems will it have, and how expensive will it be to fix it?

No way to know. But my 12 years experience with my '98 Seville (which is no slouch in the module and computer count) suggests that modern automobiles are more reliable than they were in the 1960's and the convoluted attempts to implement EPA emission control mandates in the 1970's.

The (very) few repairs I have done required nothing more than a systematic diagnostic approach along with my trusty VOM plus the tool box I have been using for 50+ years.

Like I said......just thinking out loud.....

I get it. And I'm just trying to put a little perspective on the terminology being tossed around by the dealer network (or what remains of it ).

[Texas Jim]

JimD...

Please don't take this the wrong way...

I am not trying to start an argument... with you ar anyone else...

I was just repeating what I had been told about the sensors and computers.

I am reasonably sure that a large part of what I was told was hyperbole...

But here is a partial list of just a few of the sensors I can think of off hand...and you are right...there are no where near 185 sensors...

4 for door open

1 for the trunk

1 for the hood

1 for the Rain Sense wipers

1 for the automatic headlights

4 (1 in each seating position) for airbag control

4 (1 in each door) for side curtain control

1 (at least) in the front of the car for airbags

1 yaw sensor (at least)

1 accelerometer

Steering wheel position sensor

Sensors for accelerator position

Sensors for brake fluid pressure

1 (At least) on each of the four struts / shocks

Sensors (don't know how many) for the Magnetic Ride control

Sunload sensors....don't know how many

MULTIPLE sensors all over the underhood compartment... (I don't even know what half of them are)

Battery voltage sensor

Intake air sensor

Mass airflow sensor

O2 sensors

Sensor for gas cap not tight

Outside air temperature sensor

Ambient noise level sensors for the Automatic Sound Level control for the audio system

Multiple sensors for the 4 Channel Stabilitrac

Multiple sensors for the ABS

Sensors for Automatic level control

Sensor for key in the ignition and no one in the drivers seat when you lock the door. (it will not let the drivers door lock with the key in the ignition and no one in the drivers seat)

Multiple temperature sensors in the car for the TRI ZONE climate control.

Vehicle speed sensor

Multiple sensors in and on the transmission and engine

Sensor or module or computer that makes it stay in a lower gear if you are going around a curve and let up on the accelerator... it does not go to the next higher hear automatically.

(I have no idea of what really goes into "THAT"... but it is really nice.)

[MrEldo97]

Thank you and to my point; the technology is unmanageable. I'm going to keep my old rides going as long as I can.

[JimD]

Thank you and to my point; the technology is unmanageable. I'm going to keep my old rides going as long as I can.

The technology is manageable and has been managed in many private industry and government applications for years (decades). Trickle-down works if you can wait long enough.

The domestic auto industry and their sub-contractors are just a little more cautious than the financial companies (as one example) about committing the resources required to apply today's technology to cars/trucks.

I too plan to keep my '98 model dinosaur on the road as my only set of wheels for as long as possible. Even if that means putting out more dollars for repair parts than the car would sell for at market prices.

But that is an economic consideration; not a technology-driven decision.

[BodybyFisher]

The thing that I like about my car is the ability to be able to retrieve the DTC codes, sensors are part of that system. low AC freon, code set, brake linings low, code set, low coolant code set, O2 sensor problem code set, and on and on, those codes set, Mike fixes them. No codes, start guessing. So for me the sensors are an advancement I like, and I am 57 this year.

The engines run cleaner, get better gas mileage and emit less emissions than cars of the past.

Cadillac to me, has always been an innovator, the 1955 Fleetwood had the "Autronic Eye automatic headlamp dimmer" and I think it was TUBES, the 65 had a vacuum pump that ran off of engine vacuum that filled the air shocks, the Comfort Control has always been fantastic, I could go on and on.

I have a gas fired heating system in my basement that sets a code when something goes wrong with it

My pool heater and salt generator have diagnostic systems that inform via codes what is wrong with it. I also know when the salt is low via sensors.

I like the assistance and technology, but then, I have built high performance computers, amps, pre-amps and wired my house for sound, network, antenna, phone, fiberoptics, outdoor lightinig, etc.

Lets not be luddites guys

[winterset]

The thing that I like about my car is the ability to be able to retrieve the DTC codes, sensors are part of that system. low AC freon, code set, brake linings low, code set, low coolant code set, O2 sensor problem code set, and on and on, those codes set, Mike fixes them. No codes, start guessing. So for me the sensors are an advancement I like, and I am 57 this year.

The engines run cleaner, get better gas mileage and emit less emissions than cars of the past.

Cadillac to me, has always been an innovator, the 1955 Fleetwood had the "Autronic Eye automatic headlamp dimmer" and I think it was TUBES, the 65 had a vacuum pump that ran off of engine vacuum that filled the air shocks, the Comfort Control has always been fantastic, I could go on and on.

I have a gas fired heating system in my basement that sets a code when something goes wrong with it

My pool heater and salt generator have diagnostic systems that inform via codes what is wrong with it. I also know when the salt is low via sensors.

I like the assistance and technology, but then, I have built high performance computers, amps, pre-amps and wired my house for sound, network, antenna, phone, fiberoptics, outdoor lightinig, etc.

Lets not be luddites guys

WOW. I agree with that 100%. I too wired my house (while it was being built) Network,coax,surround etc. I look for ways to put electronics in diagnostic mode. I just figured out my dishwasher. It was under warranty, but I figured out what was wrong, so I can tell them what part to bring (saving me time too) I hope caddy leaves this diagnostics feature in future cars too.

[MrEldo97]

I'm not entirely technologically inept, LOL.

I too appreciate the ease of diagnosis with OBDII and the improved efficiency of todays autos via the electronics ans so forth and I am comfortable working with them. IMO it is getting a bit excessive and expensive with all of the electronic whiz gizmos we see in today's cars. My decision to keep my "antiques" on the road is strictly economics as well.

BodybyFisher; you have a Salt Pool? So do I... pretty slick equipment.

[BodybyFisher]

I'm not entirely technologically inept, LOL.

I too appreciate the ease of diagnosis with OBDII and the improved efficiency of todays autos via the electronics ans so forth and I am comfortable working with them. IMO it is getting a bit excessive and expensive with all of the electronic whiz gizmos we see in today's cars. My decision to keep my "antiques" on the road is strictly economics as well.

BodybyFisher; you have a Salt Pool? So do I... pretty slick equipment.

Yes, I have a Digital Pool Pilot salt chlorine generator. I had problems with it at the beginning of last year, the tri-sensor was bad, but it worked great all summer. I am still learning about it. Right now my loop-loc cover is stretched from all of the snow, I am hoping it straightens out.

Carburators with their chokes were terrific devices and I loved rebuilding them, but they were totally inept at Stoichiometric or Theoretical Combustion or the ideal combustion process during which a fuel is burned completely. They always ran rich, burning fuel, contaminating the oil with fuel during warm-up, etc. All you need to do is follow a 60's vehicle to see how bad they polluted, we have improved engines so much, I wish the environmentalists and polititians would wake up

Today's transmissions are incredible devices that adapt to all situations quickly because they are controlled by the PCM, a single vacuum modulator was nice but crude.

You are very adept at mechanics, we are the same age, I dont need to say give it a chance, because you are. Without the help of this board we would all be up the creek..

[MrEldo97]

"Without the help of this board we would all be up the creek"

I'll drink to that...

Chlorine generators will last 3 years at the most. I say 3 years because I run mine year round down here in Tampa Bay, I'm assuming you run yours only 3 - 4 months out of the year? You should get more than 3 years service out of one. You can detect a failing Chlorine Generator if you have your pool water tested periodically - the chlorine will register higher with chemical analysis than your chlorine generator showing a low/er ratio. Pretty slick piece of equipment. To be sure I am a child of the '60s and '70s. Massachusetts was very free spirited between '67 and '77. Harvard Sq. in Cambridge, The Combat Zone, Cohoon's Hollow Beach and Provincetown on Cape Cod... Unique.

[BodybyFisher]

I had no idea that they don't last long, what goes bad, that grid, do you clean yours in any special way?

As kids we spent a lot of time on Cape Cod and in the general area, like Buzzards Bay, New Bedford, and Rockport. its a beautiful area, I need a Rockport/Bearskin Neck/Fish and Chips fix soon

[MrEldo97]

I clean mine every 3 months using that solution they sell in the pool stores.

I don't think they're all that durable - by design. About a $400.00+ hit every few years - something of a scam if you know what I mean.

I think the best thing to ever come out of New Bedford was Tavares.

[BodybyFisher]

I clean mine every 3 months using that solution they sell in the pool stores.

I don't think they're all that durable - by design. About a $400.00+ hit every few years - something of a scam if you know what I mean.

I think the best thing to ever come out of New Bedford was Tavares.

My parents were entertainers, and we traveled during the summers and stayed all over the country. New Bedford, Holyoke, etc were not by choice, but we enjoyed traveling just the same. I did not know that about Tavares

I just heard that the NHTSA transporation department can not decode the Toyota's black box because Toyota won't give them the key. This story just gets more interesting..

[MrEldo97]

"My parents were entertainers," really...? What did they do. That's a tough way for a kid to grow up - even in the '60s.

Holyoke is another hole in the earth. I had relatives there. Family was bi-racial and bi-lingual. Fairhaven was a pit. Went eel fishing off Fairhaven once with some Indian relatives when I was a toddler. I remember the inside of the boat being totally slimed. Never had a great ambition to eel fish a second time.

The five Tavares brothers from New Bedford were one of the hottest R&B and Soul groups of the '70s - "More Than A Woman", "Heaven Must Be Missing An Angel" "Don't Take Away The Music". Great Hustle songs... I was and still am a fan - 35 plus years.

Toyoilet's problem is drive by wire. They're just stonewalling. Just like fly by wire crashed that Airbust off Brazil...