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AC SAGA, bobynski please read


hiljak

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Ok, I am going to run the backgound on what has happened to give you some detials, then I have some questions for the experts.

I baught a 1995 STS about a year and a half ago and the ac did not work. A quick inspection showed a broken ac line under neath the motor (it was the suction/discharge line to the compressor). I changed the line, orrifice tube, and receiver/dryer (orrifice tube had some shavings that looked like clutch in it. I also blew air trough the lines. The system wouldn;t charge. I then took it to Car-X for a diagnostic, they put dye in the system and found the compressor was leaking at the seams.

I changed the compressor myself with a rebuilt delco from crappo-zone and took it to Caddy to have it vaccummed down and charged. They charged me 2 labor hours to diagose the system where they found a bad low pressure switch and then charged the system up. It had cold air for one day, then it had a message on the dash, low coolant turning compressor off. I took it back to Caddy and they said it was still full of coolant but the pressure on the high side was around 450 lb. They said this was the due to the compressor no regulating the pressure correctly.

I bit the bullet and ordered a delco from gmpartsdirect and changed the compressor for a second time :angry: I took it in this morning to have it charged and here is what they tell me.

The system now blows cold air but when it get to 50 degrees (????) it shuts off. They said this is ussually because of a block in the system. They said they checked the orrifice tube and it is gone, apparently it has been put in backwards and is down in the evaporator. They claim they never touched the orrifice tube even though they charged me $200.00 for labor diagnose the system.

In summary, I changed the compressor with a rebuild and had them check/charge the system. One day later it says low coolant reportedly due to high pressure on the high side. They said this was cause of the compressor but I have the same problem now after putting in a new delco. I think the orrfice tube in backwards was the problem the whole time and I didn;t even need to change the compressor a second time. Also, since the system worked for one day, I'm guessing that at that time the tube may have been in backwards by them and working its way down into the evaporator.

My questions are these:

1. Shouldn;t they have at least checked the tube during the $200.00 diagnostic?

2. The system was working after they charged it the first time. Then all of a sudden I have the high pressures. Doesn't seem probable that the tube was working its ways down into the evaporator at this time?

3. More improtant than the blame game, is it possible for the evaporator care to be changed at home? I have air tools, floor jacks, etc..

If so, are there any special tools needed and any quick instructions someone could give? Thanks alot.

James

James

1999 STS 65k

1995 STS 127k

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By the way, Caddy told me that the motor has to be "dropped" (not removed) to change the core. If thisis true, what do they mean by dropped and how do I do it?

James

1999 STS 65k

1995 STS 127k

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How would an orifice tube work its way into the evaporator? There's a surface in the line that the plastic portion of the tube seats against. Even if it could make it past the seating surface, it wouldn't get far as the orifice tube is 4" long and it would bottom out on a bend in the evaporator tubing. I think someone's feeding you some BS....

If the high side pressure was 450 lbs., the system is WAY overcharged and the system is shutting down to prevent damage to the lines, compressor, etc..

Did the dealer charge the same amount of R-134a as specified on the label atop the accumulator?

Kevin
'93 Fleetwood Brougham
'05 Deville
'04 Deville
2013 Silverado Z71

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That's what I was thinking about the tube, but then again, with high enough pressure it may break the plastic and cram it down in there. Also, I noticed that the switch just behind the orifice tube is shiny new and I didn't change it (or get charged for it).

I'm really thinking I have been ripped of by Caddilac. I'm going to write up a letter to the service manager now and request their story in writing. I may also write a letter to their corporate customer service.

Does anyone know the process in changing the core?

James

1999 STS 65k

1995 STS 127k

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The pressure will not break up the plastic portion of the orifice tube....even if it were possible, what would prevent the tube from being forced into the evaporator if it was installed correctly?

Changing the evaporator is a HUGE job on these cars. The engine cradle needs to be lowered to gain access to the evap. I seem to recall reading in my '96 manual that the strut and steering knuckle needs to be removed as well. There were about 25 steps to the process - it looked like an all day project to me......

I would get a second opinion.

Kevin
'93 Fleetwood Brougham
'05 Deville
'04 Deville
2013 Silverado Z71

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KHE is right find reputable AC shop to get this done right.How does the dealer know the orifice tube is in the evaporator.Sounds to me they took it out and forgot to put it in.Sounds like alot of BS flying around from these clowns.

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I DON'T .Live anywhere near their , but i doubt you will find any air cond. shop that would even attempt to change the core out, because you basically have to remove the engine first. Since ac shops are not in the engine removal business , and do not have the proper equipment to remove it , your best bet would be a good mechanic shop , who is familiar with the northstar removal, or i hate to say this a dealer. GOOD LUCK. FLOYD RANEY

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I changed the evaporator on my '94, and it is a bit of a pain to do.

I DID NOT remove the engine or lower the cradle.

You do need to remove the "dog bones" and cooling fans.

Then loosen the front 'cradle to body' bolts to only holding by a few threads.

Loosed the next pair, but not as much, and so on until the rear bolts are just snug.

This will rock the engine forward "just enough" to remove the evaporator. It's a tight fit, however it will work.

Maybe not something you want to try, but it can be done.

Barry

2008 STS V8
2016 Colorado Z71
1970 Corvette LT-1 Coupe

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Do you know the details of the job? There is a post in the FAQs on the main caddyinfo page to change the core for a 1992 deville but I doubt that car has a Northstar.

If anyone has done the job in the past, or knows how to do so, please post some directions. I am confident I can do anything with the propper instructions (and tools). Is this a job best not attempted at home? Also, what is the estimated amount of time to do it? Thanks. bbobynski, LOGAN??

James

1999 STS 65k

1995 STS 127k

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Barry, we must have been posting at the same time. What exactly is the cradle and where are the bolts for it located? Also, how much time did it take you and did you have to remove the blower motor or make any special cuts to the plastic housings? Thanks.

James

1999 STS 65k

1995 STS 127k

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another little tidbit of info. After just inspecting the car under the trying to size up the job, what do I notice lodged between the battery and the coolant resivor??? a small peice of the orrifice tube about an inch long. Its the flat cone shaped end.

Also, I see shiny metal shavings in it. I hope to go this is/was not from my new delco compressor. If so, I will kick my own *smurf*, repeatedly. :(

I did not clean the lines out with mineral spirits as I recently read in an old post, I only used air.

My plan of action is to get directions to change the core, flush the lines on very well and try to have the sysem charged. this may be a stupid question, but how do you get the mineral spirits into the system? all the hose connections appear to be horizotal. Also, do you just blow it through with air?

Thanks.

James

1999 STS 65k

1995 STS 127k

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Is the evaporator inlet cold? How about the outlet and accumulator?

Feel various sections of the high pressure line leading up to the orifice tube; if they are "cool" while the compressor is running, there's a blockage in the high side. Is there frost or condensation on any part of the condenser?

___________________________________________________

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Barry, we must have been posting at the same time. What exactly is the cradle and where are the bolts for it located? Also, how much time did it take you and did you have to remove the blower motor or make any special cuts to the plastic housings? Thanks.

Hi,

The cradle is just a fancy word for the frame. To be more exact, the sub-frame.

The Caddys don't have a full frame. It looks like a full frame, however it only runs about half way to the rear. The front "sub-frame" holds the engine/trans and suspension.

The rear suspension is attached to the body directly.

Time wise, I think it took a couple days. I wasn't in a hurry as I have another car.

Special cuts in the plastic housing?

Yes, you need to cut it on the "CUT" line designated near the heater hoses. Not the cut line near the blower motor.

With the engine tipped forward the heater motor can be easily removed without cutting any plastic.

Also, did you try any compressed air through the evaporator to see if it really is plugged ????

Barry

2008 STS V8
2016 Colorado Z71
1970 Corvette LT-1 Coupe

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It is possible that someone broke off the orifice tube and the remains are still left in the proper place in the evaporator. There is a special tool to extract the broken orifice tube. This could explain why the tech said you needed a new evaporator core... I think you need to do some additional investigation before just replacing the evaporator core.

There are flush guns available for flushing the A/C system. I use a tool that attaches to an air supply and siphons the solvent from a separate container. You will need to disconnect each fitting and flush each component separately. It helps to plug off the opposite end of the line that you are flushing in order to create backpressure to dislodge the crud.

I would hate to replace an evaporator core only to find out that the original core was good.... Years ago, the A/C on my Park Avenue quit. I had a shop charge the system and it only lasted 24 hrs. I took the car back and the shop diagnosed the problem as a leaking evaporator. The electronic detector sounded off when placed in the vent duct.

I spent 10 hours replacing that core - what a SOB of a job...and had the system recharged. The R-12 leaked out by the next morning. I returned to the shop and got the excuse that the new evaporator must be leaking....Upon properly leak testing the syetem, the shop discovered a hole in the high pressure line near the condenser. THAT was the source of the leak. Sure the evap. was slightly leaking but it would have taken years to leak out enough R-12 through the evap. before a loss of performance was noticed.

After I repaired the leaking line, I purchased the tools necessary to do my own A/C work and it has been working fine ever since.

Kevin
'93 Fleetwood Brougham
'05 Deville
'04 Deville
2013 Silverado Z71

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Guys,

Thanks for all the sugestions and I will be doing some investigation in the morning. I need to get the 2 large wrenches needed to split the lines and I will check to see if I can see the orrifice tube (whats left of it) in the line where it should be.

KHE, if it is jammed in there, what is the tool you were talking about to get it out? If I can see it, I will try my best to get it out, then flush the lines with a gun like yours that shoots solvent trough the system. Where did you get it (or how did you make it) :D ? I will also blow air through the lines at the evaporator inlet and outlet to see if it is indeed clogged. I will also do that to the rest of the system too.

KHE, let me knaw ASAP the details on the tools and where to get them, how to make them, or if they can be rented. I would really like to complete this job and go raise hell with the idiots who may have messed it up.

Thanks alot. This board is just one more reason I will always drive a Cadillac. :D

James

James

1999 STS 65k

1995 STS 127k

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I didn't have a "Flush Gun" so I used several spray cans of brake-clean. I opened up all the connections, put a rag on the end that I wasn't spraying into, and sprayed away until it wouldn't take anymore. I let it sit/soak, then blew it out (blocking one end with my finger to let the pressure build up (not too much) and let it fly into a big rag. Once emptied of brake-clean/crud, I sprayed some more in. Blew it out again, then corked up the ends with some plastic plugs. I flushed out the remaining areas the same way. You might get lucky and be able to blow out the o-tube remains. I grabbed mine out with a hemostat. I have seen a guy pull out a broken o-tube by using a long/course self tap screw and vise grips. Skin that cat, many ways...

rek

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Here is a link for the orifice tube removal tool kit.

http://www.acsource.com/index.asp?PageActi...TS&Category=269

AC Source also has flush guns. I have a high pressure atomizer that a bud gave me. It hooks up to the shop air supply and has a nozzle and a siphon tube. I wrapped the tip with several layers of first aid tape so it doesn't mar the A/C lines. I insert the siphon tube in a container of mineral spirits.

Honestly, I have never had an orifice tube stick/break....Usually, they pull right out with a pair of needle nosed pliers.

Kevin
'93 Fleetwood Brougham
'05 Deville
'04 Deville
2013 Silverado Z71

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Update,

I finally go the wrenches big enought to brak the line open and guess what I see in there... the remaining part of the orrifice tube. I see a very small diamter copper line looking right at me (don't know if that is part of the ube or the sensor right there) but I can definitely see the white plastic from the orrifice tube remains.

I may have to order the removal kit to get it out. Also, as my local parts store, they showed me a "flush gun" for $45.00 that is basically a cannister to put solvent in with an air port (like a tire) on the top to charge it with air. It has a hose that comes of it to a gun with a rubber tip. Pretty much exactly what I was looking for.

They want $15.00 for a can of AC solvent. Will mineral spirits do the same job (or any other cheaper alternitives?. Thanks for all the help guys. I cant wait to get this tube out and go shove it up the Caddy mechanics nose (after I swipe it across my *smurf* crack :lol: ).

One more thing, when using the gun, do I want to flush out the condesor too? I plan to start at the evaporator, then to the dryer (I may just replace the dryer again due to low replacement cost), then remove the compressor (my new favorite job! :angry: and flush the lines there both ways. That should pretty much do it, right?

Once again, you guys rock.

James

1999 STS 65k

1995 STS 127k

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You can do as rek suggested - brake cleaner or use mineral spirits with a flush gun. Do not flush the accumulator (dryer) - replace it. You must disconnect each component, lines and flush individually.

Hopefully, the new compressor was not damaged... Empty out the oil from the compressor when you have it off to verify that there are not any shavings in the oil - manually turn the clutch face to pump as much oil out as possible. If shavings are present, I would return the compressor as it should be covered under a warranty.

Use new o-rings at each connection - either buy them from the dealer or have a parts store match them up. They are not generic o-rings. Lube them with clean refrigerant oil at assembly and don't overtighten the fittings.

Add the proper amount of refrigerant oil to the new accumulator and the compressor before assembly. The shop manuals state the percentage of volume that should be added to the accumulator and compressor.

Kevin
'93 Fleetwood Brougham
'05 Deville
'04 Deville
2013 Silverado Z71

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If I am flushing each component out and changing the dryer, would it be fine just to add 8 oz oil to the compressor (I think 8 oz is for the whole system).

James

1999 STS 65k

1995 STS 127k

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You need to measure the amount of oil drained from the compressor. If there was less than 3 oz drained, add 3 oz to the compressor. If there was more than 3 ozs drained from the compressor, add the same amount to the compressor as you drained out.

Add the balance of the 8 oz to the accumulator.

Kevin
'93 Fleetwood Brougham
'05 Deville
'04 Deville
2013 Silverado Z71

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I tried the orrifice tube removal kit as well as a long screw. The orrifice tube kit is just a scew that screwsinto the little copper tube in the center of the tube. I can't get it to go into it. I'm thinking I may have change the core after all.

I removed the sensor right by the tube and I can see the side of the tube there but I can't pry it out from that way either.

Any other tricks??

James

1999 STS 65k

1995 STS 127k

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