bbobynski Comments re: OEM vs. Aftermarket Parts

I went to ACDelco's Web site at www.acdelco.com and found the following quotation in their “About Us – History Book” regarding their relationship to GM:

http://www.acdelco.com/html/hb_today.htm

1986: "The ACDelco Division is 12 years old. With its teen years on the horizon, GM forms Service Parts Operations, ACDelco's current parent company."

GM is still ACDelco's parent company. GM’s Web site at www.gm.com still lists ACDelco as a GM brand name.

Ranger · May 18, 2004

Suspicions confirmed.

Luke · May 18, 2004

<_< Here we go again. What is the point of this post?

I as well as many others on this board have used many many different "aftermarket" parts and have found many of them to work just fine if not better than some GM parts.

I do have to say though that I don't have experience with some parts. I have never had to replace an alternator so I can offer no experience there. As far as Oil filters, I have found Wix and Purolator filters to be the best. I developed this opinion based on my own experience with them as well as unbiased studies on oil filters that I have read on the internet. I have found and formed my opinion that ACDelco oil filters are crap. This is just my opinion.

As far as spark plugs, I would never pay the rediculous price of AC Delco double platinums. I have used many other brands of spark plugs (coppers, platinums, iridium) in Northstars and other engines and have yet to have any problems with any of them. I have formed opinions on which ones I like and which ones I don't like based on throttle response, etc but none of them caused any problems.

I have also tried many other aftermarket parts with great success including: ISC motors, water pumps, O2 sensors, plug wires, coils, caps and rotors (4.9 and others), fuel filters, trans filters, starters, air filters, etc.....

As far as what these engines were "designed and validated with", it doesn't mean there is anything wrong with aftermarket parts. All it means is that those were the parts on the vehicle when it was being "designed and validated". It's not written in stone anywhere.

I appreciate a lot of the knowledgable advice that Bbobynski provides but I take what to me seems to be fact to heart. What I feel to be opinion, I take worth a grain of salt. I prefer to make my own decisions through my own experience and unbiased testing. As far as I am concerned, saying that someone should stick with AC Delco parts because the car was designed and validated with them, is nothing more than Bbobynski's opinion because he can't and won't vouch for the quality of aftermarket parts. Very understandable because maybe he prefers factory parts. That is his choice.

I am not saying that anyone should always use aftermarket parts. Don't use them at all if you don't like them. I am just saying that I prefer to use some aftermarket parts and am just sharing my opinion. Some of you can surely tell anyone who asks for opinions to stick with factory parts and I can tell them my opinion on aftermarket parts.

As I see it, Bbobynski works for GM. He is going to promote the products of the company he works for rather than aftermarket parts. He is human. He provides lots of very valuable information but not everything he says is scripture like some of you seem to think.

jinxed45 · May 18, 2004

Here we go again. What is the point of this post?
I as well as many others on this board have used many many different "aftermarket" parts and have found many of them to work just fine if not better than some GM parts.

I do have to say though that I don't have experience with some parts. I have never had to replace an alternator so I can offer no experience there. As far as Oil filters, I have found Wix and Purolator filters to be the best. I developed this opinion based on my own experience with them as well as unbiased studies on oil filters that I have read on the internet. I have found and formed my opinion that ACDelco oil filters are crap. This is just my opinion.

As far as spark plugs, I would never pay the rediculous price of AC Delco double platinums. I have used many other brands of spark plugs (coppers, platinums, iridium) in Northstars and other engines and have yet to have any problems with any of them. I have formed opinions on which ones I like and which ones I don't like based on throttle response, etc but none of them caused any problems.

I have also tried many other aftermarket parts with great success including: ISC motors, water pumps, O2 sensors, plug wires, coils, caps and rotors (4.9 and others), fuel filters, trans filters, starters, air filters, etc.....

As far as what these engines were "designed and validated with", it doesn't mean there is anything wrong with aftermarket parts. All it means is that those were the parts on the vehicle when it was being "designed and validated". It's not written in stone anywhere.

I appreciate a lot of the knowledgable advice that Bbobynski provides but I take what to me seems to be fact to heart. What I feel to be opinion, I take worth a grain of salt. I prefer to make my own decisions through my own experience and unbiased testing. As far as I am concerned, saying that someone should stick with AC Delco parts because the car was designed and validated with them, is nothing more than Bbobynski's opinion because he can't and won't vouch for the quality of aftermarket parts. Very understandable because maybe he prefers factory parts. That is his choice.

I am not saying that anyone should always use aftermarket parts. Don't use them at all if you don't like them. I am just saying that I prefer to use some aftermarket parts and am just sharing my opinion. Some of you can surely tell anyone who asks for opinions to stick with factory parts and I can tell them my opinion on aftermarket parts.

As I see it, Bbobynski works for GM. He is going to promote the products of the company he works for rather than aftermarket parts. He is human. He provides lots of very valuable information but not everything he says is scripture like some of you seem to think.

"Don't get me wrong, there are some quality parts available in the aftermarket. Many things like brake pads can be tailored to individual customers tastes and requirements and can offer some performance improvements. But, generally speaking, the OEM parts are of the best quality available and offer proven performance in the OEM application. Many times, when you use an aftermarket part you are doing their development and validation in your application." bbobynski

JasonA · May 18, 2004

Yeah, there's nothing wrong with buying aftermarket parts, as long as you're willing to potentially buy them a few times due to poor quality, or other issues. If you bought some random store's house brand alternator, you'd likely have to return it within a year due to it no longer charging, and you'd probably end up with a Delco anyway. Trust me -- I do have experience with it. Spark plugs and wires, etc. -- that's your call. You've read here how many have bought off brands, only to go back and buy Delco when they didn't work right. Sometimes, they do work right. That's the risk you take.

The point of ours, those of us who "promote" the Delco brand (and obviously have no affiliation with GM), is that you can NEVER use a Delco part and all of a sudden have your car run worse, because Delco is the OE part! The Delco part is going to run right, the first time, every time (unless there's an obvious defect with it). You can't say the same with aftermarket parts, because usually, you're doing the R&D. I'd never buy a Bosch O2 sensor, or a non-AC plug. I've found that the heat ranges of non-OE plugs are always screwed up and never right for the car. I also found that a Bosch O2 sensor made my '84 Cutlass run really weird. I got worse gas mileage than the original. I put an AC-Delco sensor on it and wa-la...all of a sudden, my mileage and driveability was back. Same story with an EGR valve I bought for it. I was chasing a light-throttle ping, and replaced the original valve with an "Autotune" from Trak Auto (I think it was Borg Warner). Ran like junky junk. I went to the dealer, sucked it up, and paid $106 for a new Delco EGR valve. PERFECT. Smooth as glass, and my ping was gone. I've had too much experience with faulty or mis-engineered aftermarket items to keep spending my money there.

Regarding the oil filters, I'm sure you're a professional in the oil filter industry, so for those of us who aren't, please enlighten us as to why the Delco filter (the one that comes stock on ALL GMs and the one that my Cadillac has seen pretty much since new) is a piece of junk?

KHE · May 18, 2004

Here we go again. What is the point of this post?
I as well as many others on this board have used many many different "aftermarket" parts and have found many of them to work just fine if not better than some GM parts.

I do have to say though that I don't have experience with some parts. I have never had to replace an alternator so I can offer no experience there. As far as Oil filters, I have found Wix and Purolator filters to be the best. I developed this opinion based on my own experience with them as well as unbiased studies on oil filters that I have read on the internet. I have found and formed my opinion that ACDelco oil filters are crap. This is just my opinion.

As far as spark plugs, I would never pay the rediculous price of AC Delco double platinums. I have used many other brands of spark plugs (coppers, platinums, iridium) in Northstars and other engines and have yet to have any problems with any of them. I have formed opinions on which ones I like and which ones I don't like based on throttle response, etc but none of them caused any problems.

I have also tried many other aftermarket parts with great success including: ISC motors, water pumps, O2 sensors, plug wires, coils, caps and rotors (4.9 and others), fuel filters, trans filters, starters, air filters, etc.....

As far as what these engines were "designed and validated with", it doesn't mean there is anything wrong with aftermarket parts. All it means is that those were the parts on the vehicle when it was being "designed and validated". It's not written in stone anywhere.

I appreciate a lot of the knowledgable advice that Bbobynski provides but I take what to me seems to be fact to heart. What I feel to be opinion, I take worth a grain of salt. I prefer to make my own decisions through my own experience and unbiased testing. As far as I am concerned, saying that someone should stick with AC Delco parts because the car was designed and validated with them, is nothing more than Bbobynski's opinion because he can't and won't vouch for the quality of aftermarket parts. Very understandable because maybe he prefers factory parts. That is his choice.

I am not saying that anyone should always use aftermarket parts. Don't use them at all if you don't like them. I am just saying that I prefer to use some aftermarket parts and am just sharing my opinion. Some of you can surely tell anyone who asks for opinions to stick with factory parts and I can tell them my opinion on aftermarket parts.

As I see it, Bbobynski works for GM. He is going to promote the products of the company he works for rather than aftermarket parts. He is human. He provides lots of very valuable information but not everything he says is scripture like some of you seem to think.

Luke,

Please enlighten us on your testing/validation that led you to the conclusion that Delco oil filters are junk.

Testing and validation is much more than installing the product and if the car runs, calling it good....Designed and validated means a statistically significant quantity of test samples are tested to assure conformance to the design specifications at all extremes that the product will face.

rek · May 18, 2004

The other day I was at a garage down the street, (Chevy Exhaust job) and an older guy pulls up in a Buick Lesabre. He says, Hey my alternator isn't charging any more. It's the one you put in 11 months ago. It was an after market Reman. It was the SECOND one the shop had put in. It was still under warranty, but LABOR wasn't. A Delco Alt. may cost more in the beginning, but they DO work for longer than 11 months. AC oil filters for me. I've always used them. It seems to me that GM would choose an oil filter that would protect their "Warranty Outlay Costs". If they found that a different oil filter reduced their warranty obligations, they WOULD use it.

KenD · May 18, 2004

My .02

When I first got the Lac I used 3 different aftermarket oil filters. I always had an oil leak with these on no matter how tight I screwed on the filter. Went to GM and paid a little more for an ACD filter and have not had an oil leak with these on.

I guess I've come to realize that sometimes you do have to pay a little extra to get a quality product. ie, you get what you pay for sometimes.

Greg P. · May 18, 2004

25 years of driving experience has shown me that very very few aftermarket parts or products consistently have a quality that meets or exceeds the standards of OEM parts. Sure, there are some exceptions, but not many.

Just my experience.

bigfoo · May 18, 2004

Well what i've found in rebuilding lots of engines and transmissions (albeit they were all old and none fuel injected) is that if the OEM part is $50 and the aftermarket part is $10, you usually run into some sort of either performance or longevity problem.. however if the OEM part is $50 and the aftermarket part is $50 or even more it usually works the same or better than the OEM part.. I've bought $6 OEM spark plugs and $12 aftermarket ones and the aftermarket ones work better, but if you go buy a $0.50 aftermarket plug I can almost guarantee you it will perform worse.. It's just a matter of watching what you get. There are many reputable aftermarket companies. Use the OEM as a baseline cost. Anything that costs half as much as the OEM or less probably isn't worth getting unless you just don't have the money right now and you have to have it.

OEM is baseline. It perofms up to specifications (in most cases) and most of the time it works, has no problems, fits, lasts long, etc. It perorms as well as it has to to meet the requirements of the car, whatever that might be. I'm sure in a $8k car the OEM parts are going to be up to specification with an 8k car. In a Cadillac the OEM parts are probaly much better than you think (I'm guessing because I've never rebuilt one or had much experience with parts since I only have one Cadillac :>).

There is nothing saying that if you buy really expensive plugs, wires, alternators, filters, etc that they will not perform as well as OEM.. In fact most of them will perform better than OEM.. It just comes down to cost.. if you want to spend more on the stuff then it might offer some more performance but does it justify the cost? that's up to you. As for the cheaper parts, most of them will probaly be fine as long as it's from a reputable source (not a generic no brand alternator). And sometimes, generic no brand parts will work fine but it's guesswork.

The only reason I buy aftermarket parts is #1 if I want to save some money, and #2 if i'm trying to increase the performance of the engine/vehicle. #1 ususally costs less than OEM, #2 usually costs more than OEM.

If this makes any sense let me know cuz i feel like I just typed out a huge page of stuff that could have been summarized in one line but I needed a break from work

CadiKing · May 19, 2004

Ramble on, BigFoo!

JasonA · May 22, 2004

...but then on the subject of using OEM parts I suddenly "know nothing" and am only shilling GM parts. Hm....... Who is blinded here...???

Certainly not us -- on the contrary, I'm sure most of us (myself included) feel incredibly enlightened by your posts and sincerely appreciate your time and effort you put in to giving us plebians the knowledge and opinions (yes, even personal opinions) of an engineer who was involved in the vehicles we drive.

As a long-time member of Internet cardom, I can tell you how rare it is to have an actual engineer in on the discussions. As knowledgeable as many people here are, and as much experience some have, words from the engineer about a particular problem ("oh don't worry about that, here's how it really is") always tends to hit the spot.

KHE · May 22, 2004

Luke, please explain to me what makes the AC Delco filters "junk". I am curious as is the engineer that has design/release responsibility for the part....!!! The AC Delco filters meet the most stringent design and performance spec and are the ONLY filters on the market that are designed exclusively for the GM engines and certainly the only ones that are religiously tested on the engines that they are installed on at the factory. To say that an AC Delco filter is junk is pure BS.
I am being a bit misunderstood and misquoted (or quoted out of context) by Luke. I have nothing against the aftermarket nor aftermarket parts. If you want to use them, fine, I have nothing at all against that. Just be aware that you may be the one doing the testing on the part for them. Few, if any, aftermarket companies have the resources to complete the dedicated testing on each component like the OEM does. Most aftermarket parts are simply a generic part that has been modified to fit the specific application or a reverse engineered knock off of the original part that is cheaper by virtue of lesser materials, less accurate manufacturing, etc.... Cost is king in the aftermarket as that is the only real advantage that they have...You (or your engine) may pay for it in the long run.

I recommend OEM parts whether it is a GM car or a Ford or Chrysler...or a Skidoo snowmobile or Yamaha motorcycle because those are the only parts that are KNOWN to be developed specifically for that application and the only parts that are tested by the OEM. So you know that they work.

Other parts and aftermarket parts might work fine, too. "Might" is the key word, here. As long as you are willing to accept this, fine. Use whatever parts you want.

I will personally recommend ONLY what I KNOW works. Either thru our testing or my own personal experience. I know that OEM parts work. I know little or nothing about most aftermarket parts so I do NOT recommend them.

To imply that I blindly recommend OEM parts because I am shilling GM parts is utter BS and somewhat insulting.

Luke seems to accept the advice and recommendations I provide as long as they fit his preconceived notions...but then on the subject of using OEM parts I suddenly "know nothing" and am only shilling GM parts. Hm....... Who is blinded here...???

I asked Luke for his data that showed that AC filters were "junk" back on the 17th but so far, no data was presented......

Luke · May 22, 2004

I asked Luke for his data that showed that AC filters were "junk" back on the 17th but so far, no data was presented......

Sorry I didn't get to it sooner KHE. I guess I just have a life outside of caddyinfo.com. Actually, you asked me for my testing/validation of which I have none. I never said I did. I said that I had formed an opinion that AC Delco oil filters were crap. I have to admit that it was a bit harsh. They probably aren't crap but I still retain the opinion that I prefer some other brands.

You are right Bbobynski, I do accept the advice that fits my preconceived notions. What can I say? I am hard headed. I was using aftermarket parts long before I started reading your posts stating that OEM is always the best. This is what I have based my opinions on. There are plenty of aftermarket parts that I don't like and have found to be of poor quality but plenty that I do like because they have worked well for me. You said yourself, "I know little or nothing about most aftermarket parts so I do NOT recommend them." That's fine. There are aftermarket parts that have proven themself to me time and time again so that is what I know and choose to use.

It is rather unfortunate that when someone states a different opinion than most of you on this board have, you all get so pissed off or make them out to be an idiot. :angry:

mike5514 · May 22, 2004

Luke I have used aftermarket parts in the last 40 years,very rarely would I by from a dealer and I have no complaints. I can remember when buying a new car from gm you replaced the shocks with gabriels within a few thousand miles. there was a danger of cupping with the oem single action shock. Thought them days were over but my 98 gmc truck (cupping left front tire) I bought new gabriels and a set of tires. Gates belts and hoses they are great. There are other brands out there that can be trusted. I could go on. Mike

KHE · May 22, 2004

Nobody's pissed off or trying to make you look like an idiot....

I am an engineer by trade and always speak from an engineering point of view - when a statement is made that some product is "crap", I will ask for data supporting the statement. I have a sign in my office that reads "Without data, you are just another uninformed person with an opinion"

JasonA · May 22, 2004

Sorry I didn't get to it sooner KHE. I guess I just have a life outside of caddyinfo.com. Actually, you asked me for my testing/validation of which I have none. I never said I did. I said that I had formed an opinion that AC Delco oil filters were crap.

Luke, all we were asking for was HOW or WHY you formed that opinion. Have you cut one apart before? Did you have an engine fail while using one? Etc. Inquiring minds have a desire to know!

mike5514 · May 22, 2004

This is a old file I found in my computer. hope the attachment works.

filter_test.txt

JasonA · May 23, 2004

Thanks for that file. I've seen that on the Internet before. This says it all:

"I definitely recommend this filter over the design of

any Fram filter. In fact, I even recommend it over the low-end Wix and I

(personally) prefer it over the Purolators.

The filter cartridge has a large outside diameter with deep pleats, which gives

the filter element the maximum flow possible. At first glance, it appears to

have little filter element media, but the surface area measure was suprising:

315 sqin. The unit had a solid top end cap because the bypass valve is at the

bottom, which is a well-constructed spring-loaded steel with a nitrile seal

design. The nitrile rubber diaphram-type anti-drainback valve doubles as the

seal between the bypass valve and the cartridge. The only drawback to this

design is that the bypass valve seats metal-to-metal against the backplate.

This could allow oil from the clean side of the filter to seep back into the oil

pan, but it won't allow the dirty oil in the filter to seep back. Oil that is

in the main gallery usually leaks out through the main bearings anyway while the

engine sits. This is a better alternative to the high-end Wix, which can allow

oil to seep from the dirty side of the filter to the clean side."

Luke · May 23, 2004

Jason, you left out the part you didn't like.

They named AC Delco’s filter to be one of the better models. Later, AC

Delco changed their design and went to a cheaper setup made by an offshore

manufacturer.

mike5514 · May 23, 2004

Reading this report I would choose the purolator pure 1 over ac/delco and the rest because of the stronger denser media with more area. the silicone rubber anti drain back valve and the spring loaded bypass valve. But what about the oil it might by pass? (Filters by pass oil - more so at high rpm that is part of their job). I want the filter to trap and hold oil and not break up, also the rubber anti drain back valve not to harden in the cold But this is important also, I want the by pass valve to work when it has to. Mike PS I dont even want to think about ac/delco filters not made in th USA

mike5514 · May 23, 2004

oops sorry I ment to say trap and hold dirt not oil

Luke · May 23, 2004

Uh....wrong again. The AC fiters are either manufactured at Flint Michigan and/or some designs are contracted to Champion Labs for manufacture.

So how do you know if you are getting one made by GM or one made by Champion labs?

In the study that Mike5514 posted, many of the brands are made by Champion and this is part of what's said about Champion Labs' filters: The drawback to this one-piece cartridge is the rather fragile filter element paper media. It is a thin, brittle paper that rips fairly easily. It was difficult to disassemble these cartridges without destroying the filter element. One other issue is that I sometimes noticed some rust on the backplate of these filters.

The filters that are listed in the study as manufactured by Champion Labs are: Champ, Deutsch, Napa Silver, STP, Car and Driver.

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bbobynski Comments re: OEM vs. Aftermarket Parts

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