Ranger Posted July 20, 2008 Report Share Posted July 20, 2008 Mike, I remember discussing that a long time ago. It seems to take forever to charge it as a gas. I have always done it upside down as a liquid and never had a problem, for whatever that is worth. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KHE Posted July 20, 2008 Report Share Posted July 20, 2008 With accumulator systems (like GM has used for the past 30+ years) I always charge as a liquid - a little bit at a time. Any liquid refrigerant quickly vaporizes in the accumulator so slugging the compressor won't be a problem. You can charge as a gas but it will take longer. If I am working an an older, non-accumulator type system, I will charge as a liquid with the engine off, and then start the engine and finish charging as a gas. Kevin '93 Fleetwood Brougham '05 Deville '04 Deville 2013 Silverado Z71 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thaghost87 Posted July 20, 2008 Report Share Posted July 20, 2008 Dana, If the compressor is cycling, it will pull in the refrigerant. Since yours won't, the only thing I can think of is that you have not pierced the can with the can tap. Are you sure you threaded in the valve on the can tap far enough to puncture the can? It does pull the freon, but like you said it only does it when the compressor kicks on.. which is like every min or two.. do i have to leave the can on there and just wait for it to keep cycling? i thought the compressor was supposed to stay on Leave the can connected until the system sucks it in and the can is empty. I am going to have to leave it connected for several hours it seems.. when the compressor comes on it doesnt stay on long.. also when it does come on the pressure goes up to about 55 almost 60 then drops when it turns off to about 35- 40.. it changes sometimes.. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KHE Posted July 20, 2008 Report Share Posted July 20, 2008 Dana, If the compressor is cycling, it will pull in the refrigerant. Since yours won't, the only thing I can think of is that you have not pierced the can with the can tap. Are you sure you threaded in the valve on the can tap far enough to puncture the can? It does pull the freon, but like you said it only does it when the compressor kicks on.. which is like every min or two.. do i have to leave the can on there and just wait for it to keep cycling? i thought the compressor was supposed to stay on Leave the can connected until the system sucks it in and the can is empty. I am going to have to leave it connected for several hours it seems.. when the compressor comes on it doesnt stay on long.. also when it does come on the pressure goes up to about 55 almost 60 then drops when it turns off to about 35- 40.. it changes sometimes.. The system should pull in the refrigerant in a short amount of time. Are you sure you have the can pierced? Kevin '93 Fleetwood Brougham '05 Deville '04 Deville 2013 Silverado Z71 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thaghost87 Posted July 21, 2008 Report Share Posted July 21, 2008 Dana, If the compressor is cycling, it will pull in the refrigerant. Since yours won't, the only thing I can think of is that you have not pierced the can with the can tap. Are you sure you threaded in the valve on the can tap far enough to puncture the can? It does pull the freon, but like you said it only does it when the compressor kicks on.. which is like every min or two.. do i have to leave the can on there and just wait for it to keep cycling? i thought the compressor was supposed to stay on Leave the can connected until the system sucks it in and the can is empty. I am going to have to leave it connected for several hours it seems.. when the compressor comes on it doesnt stay on long.. also when it does come on the pressure goes up to about 55 almost 60 then drops when it turns off to about 35- 40.. it changes sometimes.. The system should pull in the refrigerant in a short amount of time. Are you sure you have the can pierced? yes the can is pierced Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thaghost87 Posted July 21, 2008 Report Share Posted July 21, 2008 Talked to caddy to bring it into them for AC service, explained my problem and they said its most likely a acuator door... they said its one under the dash that probably isnt switching back and forth. i tried to slow change the temp up and down to see if the door was stuck but that didnt work. Is it complicated to get to, or removing the dash? Then what should i do once at the acuator? thanks No ive been reading that its probably low freon, i need to make sure i am doing my recharge correctly.. does anyone know eactly where the high and low sides of the ac system are that i hook up the guage? The one i was using is on the passenger side near the front, its a port in front of it but my hose would not connect to that one. Is there another port i should be checking? My pressure reads about 40psi(95 degrees). When the compressor kicks on the guages goes up to about 60psi and then when it cuts of it drops back down. thanks guys Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BodybyFisher Posted July 21, 2008 Report Share Posted July 21, 2008 I believe the actuator will set a code if its got a problem unless the actuator is working and the arm is detached. Do you know what happened when they removed the engine? Did they depressurize the system? Pre-1995 - DTC codes OBD1 >> 1996 and newer - DTC codes OBD2 >> https://www.obd-codes.com/trouble_codes/gm/obd_codes.htm How to check for codes Caddyinfo How To Technical Archive >> http://www.caddyinfo.com/wordpress/cadillac-how-to-faq/ Cadillac History & Specifications Year by Year http://www.motorera.com/cadillac/index.htm Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ranger Posted July 21, 2008 Report Share Posted July 21, 2008 The service ports are different sizes to prevent you from connecting the can to the high pressure port and turning the can into a grenade. The one you could not hook up to is the high pressure port. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thaghost87 Posted July 21, 2008 Report Share Posted July 21, 2008 I believe the actuator will set a code if its got a problem unless the actuator is working and the arm is detached. Do you know what happened when they removed the engine? Did they depressurize the system? I doubt that they did that.. but of course im not sure.. I dont think they did. I wan to go get a simple recharge but midas wants 125$ plus like $4 dollars per ounce of freon added. iam going to give caddy a call in a few min and check their prices. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thaghost87 Posted July 21, 2008 Report Share Posted July 21, 2008 The service ports are different sizes to prevent you from connecting the can to the high pressure port and turning the can into a grenade. The one you could not hook up to is the high pressure port. Geesh thank God they made different sizes... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KHE Posted July 21, 2008 Report Share Posted July 21, 2008 Talked to caddy to bring it into them for AC service, explained my problem and they said its most likely a acuator door... they said its one under the dash that probably isnt switching back and forth. i tried to slow change the temp up and down to see if the door was stuck but that didnt work. Is it complicated to get to, or removing the dash? Then what should i do once at the acuator? thanks No ive been reading that its probably low freon, i need to make sure i am doing my recharge correctly.. does anyone know eactly where the high and low sides of the ac system are that i hook up the guage? The one i was using is on the passenger side near the front, its a port in front of it but my hose would not connect to that one. Is there another port i should be checking? My pressure reads about 40psi(95 degrees). When the compressor kicks on the guages goes up to about 60psi and then when it cuts of it drops back down. thanks guys Dana, The low side port is near the accumulator (large aluminum can) and the high side port is on the smaller diameter line running along the firewall. The gages will only hook up one way. Is the gage reading you posted from the low side? You need to get pressure readings from both sides (high and low side) in order to approximate the charge in the system. Are you using a manifold gage set with two gages? I would not suspect the actuator at this point until it is verified the system has a proper charge of refrigerant. If the actuator was bad, it should have set a code. Kevin '93 Fleetwood Brougham '05 Deville '04 Deville 2013 Silverado Z71 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BodybyFisher Posted July 21, 2008 Report Share Posted July 21, 2008 I believe the actuator will set a code if its got a problem unless the actuator is working and the arm is detached. Do you know what happened when they removed the engine? Did they depressurize the system? I doubt that they did that.. but of course im not sure.. I dont think they did. I wan to go get a simple recharge but midas wants 125$ plus like $4 dollars per ounce of freon added. iam going to give caddy a call in a few min and check their prices. That is $64 a pound, if you are low, not too bad Here is a schematic of the AC system, maybe this will help, look at #4 and #11 Pre-1995 - DTC codes OBD1 >> 1996 and newer - DTC codes OBD2 >> https://www.obd-codes.com/trouble_codes/gm/obd_codes.htm How to check for codes Caddyinfo How To Technical Archive >> http://www.caddyinfo.com/wordpress/cadillac-how-to-faq/ Cadillac History & Specifications Year by Year http://www.motorera.com/cadillac/index.htm Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KHE Posted July 21, 2008 Report Share Posted July 21, 2008 I believe the actuator will set a code if its got a problem unless the actuator is working and the arm is detached. Do you know what happened when they removed the engine? Did they depressurize the system? I doubt that they did that.. but of course im not sure.. I dont think they did. I wan to go get a simple recharge but midas wants 125$ plus like $4 dollars per ounce of freon added. iam going to give caddy a call in a few min and check their prices. That is $64 a pound, if you are low, not too bad That's obscene.... I don't pay that much for R-12.... the 12 oz cans in the store sell for $6.00 which is $8.00 per pound. My guess is the shop is selling the refrigerant for $4.00 per pound. $3.00 per pound is what the 30 lb cylinder costs so the shop is probably marking it up to $4.00. Kevin '93 Fleetwood Brougham '05 Deville '04 Deville 2013 Silverado Z71 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thaghost87 Posted July 21, 2008 Report Share Posted July 21, 2008 Thanks mike for the pic... and yes i was reading frmo the low side near the accumulator. I only have one guage, its one that came with the can. I will check the High side after work and see what that reading says, is it possible to charge from the high side if i get a low reading there?. The quote i got was from a Midas, they said its $129 plus $4 dollars per ounce of freon. They must be crazy.. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BodybyFisher Posted July 21, 2008 Report Share Posted July 21, 2008 I believe the actuator will set a code if its got a problem unless the actuator is working and the arm is detached. Do you know what happened when they removed the engine? Did they depressurize the system? I doubt that they did that.. but of course im not sure.. I dont think they did. I wan to go get a simple recharge but midas wants 125$ plus like $4 dollars per ounce of freon added. iam going to give caddy a call in a few min and check their prices. That is $64 a pound, if you are low, not too bad That's obscene.... I don't pay that much for R-12.... the 12 oz cans in the store sell for $6.00 which is $8.00 per pound. My guess is the shop is selling the refrigerant for $4.00 per pound. $3.00 per pound is what the 30 lb cylinder costs so the shop is probably marking it up to $4.00. Is it?, I was comparing it to what I paid for an evacuate and recharge... Pre-1995 - DTC codes OBD1 >> 1996 and newer - DTC codes OBD2 >> https://www.obd-codes.com/trouble_codes/gm/obd_codes.htm How to check for codes Caddyinfo How To Technical Archive >> http://www.caddyinfo.com/wordpress/cadillac-how-to-faq/ Cadillac History & Specifications Year by Year http://www.motorera.com/cadillac/index.htm Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thaghost87 Posted July 21, 2008 Report Share Posted July 21, 2008 I believe the actuator will set a code if its got a problem unless the actuator is working and the arm is detached. Do you know what happened when they removed the engine? Did they depressurize the system? I doubt that they did that.. but of course im not sure.. I dont think they did. I wan to go get a simple recharge but midas wants 125$ plus like $4 dollars per ounce of freon added. iam going to give caddy a call in a few min and check their prices. That is $64 a pound, if you are low, not too bad Here is a schematic of the AC system, maybe this will help, look at #4 and #11 i think my #11 would be between the coolant cap and accumulator in the pic.. im guessing that pic is for the 97 or older models, because my coolant cap is on the other side lol Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BodybyFisher Posted July 21, 2008 Report Share Posted July 21, 2008 Yes this is for a 96, to use as a guide.. Pre-1995 - DTC codes OBD1 >> 1996 and newer - DTC codes OBD2 >> https://www.obd-codes.com/trouble_codes/gm/obd_codes.htm How to check for codes Caddyinfo How To Technical Archive >> http://www.caddyinfo.com/wordpress/cadillac-how-to-faq/ Cadillac History & Specifications Year by Year http://www.motorera.com/cadillac/index.htm Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thaghost87 Posted July 21, 2008 Report Share Posted July 21, 2008 Yes this is for a 96, to use as a guide.. thanks, i will try and find that other port. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ranger Posted July 21, 2008 Report Share Posted July 21, 2008 Thanks mike for the pic... and yes i was reading frmo the low side near the accumulator. I only have one guage, its one that came with the can. I will check the High side after work and see what that reading says, is it possible to charge from the high side if i get a low reading there?. The quote i got was from a Midas, they said its $129 plus $4 dollars per ounce of freon. They must be crazy.. NO! You never charge from the high side. You don't open the high side (red) valve unless you are drawing a vacuum. Better make sure you know what you are doing. Remember the grenade. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BodybyFisher Posted July 21, 2008 Report Share Posted July 21, 2008 Good pick up Ranger, I didn't see that. I don't think Dana's fitting however will be able to be connected to the high side, its a different size for just such a reason. But that was good thinking.. By the way Dana, those guages that come with the cans are guestimates at best. If you don't show any HVAC actuator codes, you probably need a charge. I think that seems evident from the fact that your system wouldn't ingest that can, you probably have air in the system. See if you can find a good shop to recharge it for you. No codes? Pre-1995 - DTC codes OBD1 >> 1996 and newer - DTC codes OBD2 >> https://www.obd-codes.com/trouble_codes/gm/obd_codes.htm How to check for codes Caddyinfo How To Technical Archive >> http://www.caddyinfo.com/wordpress/cadillac-how-to-faq/ Cadillac History & Specifications Year by Year http://www.motorera.com/cadillac/index.htm Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thaghost87 Posted July 21, 2008 Report Share Posted July 21, 2008 Good pick up Ranger, I didn't see that. I don't think Dana's fitting however will be able to be connected to the high side, its a different size for just such a reason. But that was good thinking.. By the way Dana, those guages that come with the cans are guestimates at best. If you don't show any HVAC actuator codes, you probably need a charge. I think that seems evident from the fact that your system wouldn't ingest that can, you probably have air in the system. See if you can find a good shop to recharge it for you. No codes? no codes.. i am going to call around and price it. if there is air then i need and evac and recharge? or just a recharge? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CoupeDTS Posted July 21, 2008 Author Report Share Posted July 21, 2008 What type of "stop leak" was added to the system? If it was that goo that cures in the presence of air, the system could be in big trouble. If it was that crap from Walmart that "Conditions" o-rings (which is not necessary...) there is less of a chance in major trouble. The garbage that the chain stores sell as "O-ring conditioner stop leak" has a chemical that causes o-rings to swell. Bad idea - if a connection o-ring is leaking bad enough to discharge the system, no amount of that snake oil is going to cause it to seal. While the system is discharged, it would be a good idea to pull the orifice tube and inspect it. If you find a few metal particles, that is normal but if the o-tube is clogged with teflon particles, that's another story. Be sure to replace it with the long end pointed toward the condenser or you will destroy the low side thermistor. Pay close attention when you disassemble it. Orifice tubes are less than $5 so just replace it. I used the walmart stop leak that conditions yes. When i took the condenser out i didnt get any sticky residue shootin out of it and it looked clean. I think some if not all the stop leak leaked out. Ive read alot about this orifice tube and people say its on the hose going to the evaporator? Thats the hoses going to the firewall? Those hoses dont have any pieces to them they just go from the accumulator drier box thing to the firewall so I dont see what to replace. Im all about changin out $5 parts while I can so I would like to find that. Thanks for all the help guys. Looks like I need to replace the orifice tube, probably change the high pressure sensor, change all the o rings and nylog them if possible, then I know a guy that knows a guy that has an evacuator that knows how to evacuate and recharge. So hopefully nothing else is broke and if theres still a leak it should be narrowed down pretty good. Then maybe Ill have a/c and stop telling people my car didnt come with it * 1966 Deville Convertible * 2007 Escalade ESV Black on Black * 1996 Fleetwood Brougham Black on Black V4P -Gone* 1983 Coupe Deville Street/Show Lowrider -Gone* 1970 Calais 4dr Hardtop GONE* 2000 Deville DTS - Silver with Black Leather and SE grille GONE* 1999 Seville STS - Pearl Red GONE Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BodybyFisher Posted July 21, 2008 Report Share Posted July 21, 2008 If you didnt find the orifice tube, I posted a diagram on the prior page, look at it its in the line near the firewall. Pre-1995 - DTC codes OBD1 >> 1996 and newer - DTC codes OBD2 >> https://www.obd-codes.com/trouble_codes/gm/obd_codes.htm How to check for codes Caddyinfo How To Technical Archive >> http://www.caddyinfo.com/wordpress/cadillac-how-to-faq/ Cadillac History & Specifications Year by Year http://www.motorera.com/cadillac/index.htm Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ranger Posted July 22, 2008 Report Share Posted July 22, 2008 Good pick up Ranger, I didn't see that. I don't think Dana's fitting however will be able to be connected to the high side, its a different size for just such a reason. But that was good thinking.. Correct Mike. I thought he had said that he was going to buy a set of gages. Maybe it was the "can I fill from the high side that made me think that. Maybe I'm mistaken, but that's why I mentioned that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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