Intermittant Starting Problem

[kens96]

Car just turned 140K. Within the last week I have had 3 occasions where when I turn the key I get dashlights, memory seats, headlights, fuelpump etc. but no crank. I've searched the forum and it appears alot of the trobules are fixed with cleaning the positive cables. I don't think it is the shifter switch because Ive already done the neutral through park move during one attempt with no results.

I will try cleaning the positive cable this this evening, but my luck with this car always tells me to be ready to take the next step. I found 1 diagram on where the starter is positioned. Is there a step by step out there for a 96 ETC Northstar for replacing the cables and starter? Are there any ignition relays that I need to check?

Thanks

Ken

[BodybyFisher]

Ken as you know there are two cables at the positive battery connection, one goes to the relay center on the LF wheel well and the alternator and the other goes to the starter. Make sure that the positive cable is clean and tight and that the lead lug is not crushed allowing the bolt to bottom out before the joint is tight.. I bought a new bolt and lead lug recently. As you know lead is a good conductor of electric but is a soft material and it can squash.

[Ranger]

Don't overlook the battery itself.

[cyrez00]

Ken,

I've had the exact same issue and even lifted the whole intake manifold to get to the starter (extremely easy by the way, only four bolts)

After cleaning all the positive cables (battery and starter side) it was ok for a while but then the *smurf* started again.

To cut things short : it turned out to be the cable that goes to the relais, there is a connector located on the side of your right front shock (under the hood) which i cleaned and the problem was gone ever since.

Good luck.

Attached a picture to help clarify what i said above. if you like the big uncompressed pic then drop me a personal message with your email address, the board wants me to keep it under 100k. the circle is the approximate location of the connector.

[kens96]

Got home from work without incident. Cleaned the battery terminals. The ground was a little chaulky. The hot leads looked pretty good, just a little tarnished and very little chaulk on the leads that go to the alternator and relay box. Cleaned the pellet on the key and ran some contact cleaner on the key into the ignition switch. Battery is a 7yr HD installed in January of this year.

Found the connector Marc indicated he cleaned. Mine is strapped down to the fender well and the car is too hot at this time to play with it . Looks like it comes off a lead that goes to the starter. Hard to tell

Guess we need to wait and see if the problem crops up.

Still interested in getting the procedure to remove the starter.

Logan also had a post in the archives that had a picture of the location of an intermediate starter relay that is somewhere under the hush panel near or on the fender wall under the dash somewhere. The picture doesn't come up on the post. I sent him an E Mail.

As usual thanks for the help. If anyone can add some more insight to this please do so.

Ken

[BodybyFisher]

Starter Motor

PG-260

The PG-260 starter motor features small permanent magnets mounted inside the field frame and a planetary gear reduction mechanism between the armature and drive. A permanent magnet fear reduction motor is about half the weight and size of a field coil motor having the same cranking performance. The drive housing encloses the shift lever, the shift lever mechanism, and the solenoid plunger to protect them from exposure to dirt, icing conditions, and splash.

When the ignition switch is moved to the start position, a start request is sent to the PASS-Key® II module. If correct PASS-Key® II resistance is sensed and the vehicle is in PARK of NEUTRAL, then the PASS-Key® II module will energize the starter enable relay and output the PCM fuel enable signal. the starter enable relay will send battery voltage to the starter solenoid contacts. This will energize the solenoid windings and cause movement of the solenoid plunger and shift lever which causes the drive pinion to engage the engine flywheel ring gear and the solenoid switch contacts to close. When the solenoid switch contacts close, the starter motor is energized and cranking takes place. As the engine starts, the pinion overrun clutch protects the starter armature from excessive speed until the ignition switch is opened. Once the solenoid windings are de-energized, the return spring causes the pinion to disengage. To prevent excessive overrun, the ignition switch should be opened immediately when the engine starts.

[BodybyFisher]

Sorry about this mess, but here are the starting and charging components a schematic follows:

Starting and Charging Components

Name

Location

Locator View

Connector End View

Group No.

Battery

RH front corner of Engine Compartment

--

6D1-1

--

Engine Compartment Fuse Block/Relay Center

Forward of LH front strut Tower

8A-201-7

Fig. 15

11-0, 19-4

--

Generator

Lower RH front of engine

8A-201-15

Fig. 30

6D3-1

--

Ignition Switch

Behind LH side of I/P, on Steering Column

8A-201-30

Fig. 57

3F-1

--

Instrument Panel Cluster (IPC)

LH side of I/P

8A-201-26

Fig. 51

8C1-1

--

LH Maxi® Fuse Block

Forward of LH front strut tower, near Engine Compartment Fuse/Relay Center

8A-201-7

Fig. 15

10-0

--

Park/Neutral Position Switch

On LH of Transmission, near base of rear Engine Lift Hook

8A-201-20

Fig. 39

202-37

--

Powertrain Control Module (PCM)

LH front corner of Engine Compartment, under Air Cleaner Housing

8A-201-4

Fig. 10

21-20

--

RH Maxi® Fuse Block

Forward of LH front Strut Tower, near Engine Compartment Fuse/Relay Center

8A-201-7

Fig. 15

10-0

--

Sensing and Diagnostic Module (SDM)

Under Driver's Seat

8A-201-39

Fig. 75

202-48

--

Starter Enable Relay

Forward of LH front Strut Tower, near Engine Compartment Fuse/Relay Center

8A-201-7

Fig. 15

202-33

--

Starter Motor

Under Intake Manifold, in Lifter Valley

8A-201-19

Fig. 37

--

--

Starter Solenoid

Under Intake Manifold, on Starter Motor

8A-201-19

Fig. 37

--

--

CONNECTORS:

C101 (23 Cavities)

Forward of LH front Strut Tower, near Engine Compartment Fuse/Relay Center

8A-201-7

Fig. 15

202-0

--

C131 (2 Cavities)

RH rear corner of Engine, near Cam Cover

8A-201-23

Fig. 46

--

--

C202 (48 Cavities)

Below LH side of I/P, near base of Steering Column

8A-201-29

Fig. 56

202-4

--

GROUNDS:

G100

RH front corner of Engine Compartment, on Upper Radiator Support

8A-201-11

Fig. 22

--

--

G105

RH front corner of Engine, near Generator

8A-201-22

Fig. 47

--

--

SPLICES:

S103

Body main Harness, approximately 6.5 cm for C101 connector breakout

8A-201-7

Fig. 15

--

--

S121

Engine Harness, approximately 23.5 cm from IGN1 relay connector breakout

8A-201-7

Fig. 15

--

--

[BodybyFisher]

[kens96]

Thanks BBF!

After cleaning the battery posts and connectors my voltage is more stable than it has been.

(Hdlights, AC on, in drive, on the brake in traffic)

Old average values as low as 10.3 volts

New average values as low as 11.2 Volts

Same conditions without Hdlights

Old average values as low as 11.0 volts

New average values as low as 12.2 Volts

Highway Driving

Old average values 12.8 volts

New average values 13.3 Volts

If anything the alternator is working more effieciently.

Looked for the enable start relay. I'm guessing it must be somehwere under the large cover on the LH fender since the access door only shows the fuses and an AC and Fuel Pump Relay. Is that correct?

Ken

[BodybyFisher]

Yes that is correct, its under the plastic cover, you can pull that cover off and there is a chart under the cover that will show you were the relay is. I recall seeing it when I dropped my carriage

This was posted above:

Starter Enable Relay

Location >> Forward of LH front Strut Tower, near Engine Compartment Fuse/Relay Center

8A-201-7

Fig. 15

202-33

[BodybyFisher]

I am going to the scrap yard on Sat morning, I will grab a Starter Enable Relay for you if I see one.. If nothing else you can swap it in to see if it stops your problem...if it arises again

[kens96]

Thanks BBF,

I called 2 dealers and they have no clue what I'm talking about when I asked for the part. NAPA has what they believe it is for around $20. I will stop by there and see if it is the relay and let you know. If you do find one during your search let me know.

PS -I take it from the detail you provided about how the starter gets activated on the NS that it is more robust than the standard unit. If I was having problems with it I would see dimming lights on starts or poor engagement of the starter to the flywheel.

[BodybyFisher]

It works more or less the same as a standard starter, the relay is part of the PASS system if I am not mistaken. The PASS system could give a green light and the relay does not complete the circuit and then you get a dead key. Just a thought.

A bad solenoid would CLICK, and the internal switch would not contact to start the starter, but you would hear a click. OR, the solenoid is intermittant, but that is unlikely.

[kens96]

I'm going to continue down the path that it is not the starter...when I have the problem there is no noises coming from the engine area.

[kens96]

Well it looks like it is a dealer or GM Parts Direct part. Logan described it as a green relay and that's what it is. Green in color VBA2030 Part #12135078. I'll call around tomorrow and see if anyone can cross reference it.

Ken

[cyrez00]

Ken,

i understand that cleaning the connector as i indicated didn't work?

When you turn the key that connector should get 12volt or so. anything lower would confirm a broken relais or at least rule out the starter itself.

Marc.

[kens96]

Thanks Marc,

I plan on cleaning the connector this weekend after the car has sat overnight. Mine is fastened low on the fender and the car is too hot to get at it after work. Since I've cleaned the battery connections real well, I've not had a problem, but its only been two days. I will be ordering the relay from GMPartsDirect since thay are the cheapest $27. Will keep you posted.

Thanks again for the pics !

Ken

[BodybyFisher]

Ken, I went to the scrap yard today and picked up a starter enable solenoid. If you want it send me a PM with your address.

NOTE, I pulled out 2 relays including the starter enable solenoid, BOTH had GREEN corrosion on their connector pins and one of the relays was SO corroded that a pin broke off. Pull your starter enable relay and check for corrosion on the pins and clean it with electrical connector if the problems come back.

If you are having problems check your connectors for green corrosion guys!

See the green on top the two outside pins in this relay I pulled today off of a 99 Deville, the starter enable relay had this bright green on one pin. The top right pin is corroded so badly it broke off, look closely. If you are having intermittant problems pull your relays and have a look. Clean them with electronic cleaner and I think you can use some electrical grease on the pins

[BodybyFisher]

Here is a good shot:

[Logan]

In that post..I think..

When I mentioned 'green.' It was to refer to moisture problems with the relay. Not that the relay was green plastic. Sorry, that car has been gone 5 years..I forget..

Moisture issue corrosion. Typically we will call that a 'green' relay. Make sense?

UPDATE: Now I see Fisher pictures. That is what we call a 'GREEN' relay. Moisture made it inside too..

[BodybyFisher]

In that post..I think..

When I mentioned 'green.' It was to refer to moisture problems with the relay. Not that the relay was green plastic. Sorry, that car has been gone 5 years..I forget..

Moisture issue corrosion. Typically we will call that a 'green' relay. Make sense?

UPDATE: Now I see Fisher pictures. That is what we call a 'GREEN' relay. Moisture made it inside too..

Yes, I am sorry if I was being confusing, there are green terminals from corrosion and in fact there is a relay in the under hood relay center that has a green case.

[BodybyFisher]

EDIT

[kens96]

Thanks for thinking of us Mike.

Since cleaning the battery terminals and key I've not had any other issues with starting. I did find the starter enable relay. It is on the left fender well under the plastic cover beyond the small relay panel, in the maxi fuse'relay panel.

Believe it or not it is actually green plastic, rectangular not square and is made by Potter Brumfield. I'll try to snap a picture of it this weekend.

Logan's description works for me regardless of which "green" it was !

[BodybyFisher]

Thanks for thinking of us Mike.

Since cleaning the battery terminals and key I've not had any other issues with starting. I did find the starter enable relay. It is on the left fender well under the plastic cover beyond the small relay panel, in the maxi fuse'relay panel.

Believe it or not it is actually green plastic, rectangular not square and is made by Potter Brumfield. I'll try to snap a picture of it this weekend.

Logan's description works for me regardless of which "green" it was !

Ken, I actually pulled one off of a 96 for you, its in my garage, and yes, it is green, if you need it PM me your address, its yours. Glad you got it starting again, so what was it the battery connections?

[kens96]

Yes in this case it was the battery connections. With all the electronics these cars have today I recommend that you clean the battery terminals at some frequency. I've added it to my to-do list with changing the batteries in the smoke detectors and turning the clocks back in the fall.