Who writes these things?

[nigel]

And I Quote from page 6-1066, Service Manual 2000 Seville GMP/00-K-2

Crankshaft Position (CPK) Sensor Replacement

Removal Proceedure

1. Raise and support the vehicle

2. Remove the crankshaft sensor electrical connector

3. Remove the crankshaft retaining bolt

4. Remove the crankshaft sensor

Ok, first joke is the omission of the diagrams next to the text showing

where the sensors are (with the help of the 'excellent' index I managed

to find the location on page 6-67 and page 6-527), the word 'sensor' in

line 3 is missing and the rest of the joke is that from underneath the

car I can't even see the CPK, let alone disconnect it and unbolt it.

Where the heck is the bit about the sensors hiding behind the front

engine mount?

Looks like another 5 minute job is going to take all weekend. Curse you

DTC P 0385!!

[OynxSTS]

If it helps here are the added steps from my online '02 manual

Remove:

1) Raise and support the vehicle. Refer to Lifting and Jacking the Vehicle in General Information.

2) Remove the air deflector. Refer to Air Deflector Replacement - Front in Body Front End.

3) Remove the oil filter adaptor. Refer to Oil Filter Adapter Replacement in Engine Mechanical 4.6L.

4) Disconnect the crankshaft position sensor electrical connector.

5) Remove the crankshaft sensor retaining bolt.

6) Remove the crankshaft sensor.

Install:

1) Lubricate the crankshaft sensor O-ring with clean engine oil.

Notice

Use the correct fastener in the correct location. Replacement fasteners must be the correct part number for that application. Fasteners requiring replacement or fasteners requiring the use of thread locking compound or sealant are identified in the service procedure. Do not use paints, lubricants, or corrosion inhibitors on fasteners or fastener joint surfaces unless specified. These coatings affect fastener torque and joint clamping force and may damage the fastener. Use the correct tightening sequence and specifications when installing fasteners in order to avoid damage to parts and systems.

2) Install the crankshaft sensor and the retaining bolt. Tighten

3) Tighten the retaining bolt between 10 N·m (89 lb in).

4) Connect the crankshaft position sensor electrical connector.

5) Install the oil filter adaptor. Refer to Oil Filter Adapter Replacement in Engine Mechanical 4.6L.

6) Install the air deflector. Refer to Air Deflector Replacement - Front in Body Front End.

7) Lower the vehicle.

8 ) Operate the engine and inspect crankshaft sensor for engine oil leaks.

9) Perform the CKP System Variation Learn Procedure .

My 2¢ the CKP system learn is usually not required... Only do this if the car runs poorly and I found it easier to remove the sensor with the connector attached and then remove the connector... I also found it easier to install the connector and then install the sensor... (switch steps 1 & 4)

Disconnecting the electrical connector is (by far) the hardest part of this job... It is a double locking gizmo that will take a delicate touch and some jeweler's screwdrivers to perform

IMO not a hard job... 15 minutes tops...

[nigel]

Thanks for that Greg. I'd already removed the deflector panel but the thing was still hidden. I was trying to decided whether to remove the oil filler adapter or to take off the motor mount.

I had to take off the oil adapter when I replaced the oil pressure sender on my Eldo, so that's a job I'm comfortable doing.

I've got the worst kind of fault, an intermittent one and I was hoping that wiggling the connector might help but by your description it will be kinda difficult.

[OynxSTS]

NO.. wiggle won't help. GM installed majorly crappy crank sensors on these cars starting in 00 and ending in early 03... the fail intermittently "inside" the sensor... The ONLY solution is to replace BOTH sensors...

Once you take out the oil filter and the oil filter adapter the sensors will be accessible (tight but accessible)... depending on the car there should be an oil pressure sensor on the adapter that you will need to disconnect too..

On my car... it was a "oh there they are... that makes it easy" moment once the oil adapter is out of the way...

There is no need to remove the mount (unless your hands are really big LOL)

Good Luck!

[Poobah]

This sounds like its a similar problem to one I'm having.

See: http://caddyinfo.ipbhost.com/index.php?showtopic=11195

It sounds like this is a common problem with 2000's. Can anyone guess the odds of the crankshaft sensor just going out and leaving me stranded somewhere? I just changed the oil and, since the oil filter needs to be removed to get at the sensors, I'd rather postpone the job until I'm due for another oil change.

Thanks in advance,

[nigel]

From what I managed to understand from reading the service manual was that as long as only one sensor goes out at a time the car will still start and run, albeit in limp home mode.

When one sensor goes out the PCM takes a reference signal from the camshaft sensor and compares it to that of the remaining crank sensor.

So as long as you still have at least one CKP working and the cam sensor is ok, you'll get home

I was definitely going to change both the sensors, has anyone any thoughts on the ones made by standard (PC 275, PC 276)

I took a look at your post, Poobah, I've had the ocassional DTC of 1016 as well as the bucking. Mine normally happens about 5 minutes after a cold start, either stalling the motor at a junction or jumping as it cuts out and refires.

Only recently has the P 0385 code come up. as soon as the motor jumps I've been finding a place to stop and clear the code before carrying on.

edited for spelign

[Poobah]

I've had the ocassional DTC of 1016 as well as the bucking. Mine normally happens about 5 minutes after a cold start.

Only recently has the P 0385 code come up. As soon as the motor jumps I've been finding a place to stop and clear the code before carrying on.

My symptoms, exactly. We're definitely, having the same problem. Thanks for the info.

[GreenMachine]

out of curiousity is your manual a first printing or a revised printing? I talked to a tech and he said the first printings can be somewhat unclear and the correct the mistakes for second and sometimes in rare cases a 3rd printing. (I guess usually they print one for the vehicle at its launch, then do amendents and print another when its no longer in production or something to that effect.)

[nigel]

i imagine its a first edition, the only info i can find is the copyright date of 2000 and the information cut off of 01/18/00

i bought the manuals 3 years ago as new books

[GreenMachine]

if it was a second or third edition it would say so on the cover in big red letters.

[Poobah]

An Errors and Suggestions reporting procedure is printed in the first few pages of my manuals.

There are minor errors in the manuals. I found reference to "borken valve springs" in mine. I guess nobody's perfect. My 2000 Deville manual (3-volumes) totals around 5000 pages of information. There are bound to be a few flaws in there somewhere.

[OynxSTS]

This sounds like its a similar problem to one I'm having.

See: http://caddyinfo.ipbhost.com/index.php?showtopic=11195

It sounds like this is a common problem with 2000's. Can anyone guess the odds of the crankshaft sensor just going out and leaving me stranded somewhere? I just changed the oil and, since the oil filter needs to be removed to get at the sensors, I'd rather postpone the job until I'm due for another oil change.

Thanks in advance,

Yes these POS sensors will ALL fail on ALL 2000-early 2003 Northstars ... Usually just off factory warranty...

Complete failures are very rare... and from what I have read even if one were to completely fail the car will "limp home" using the other crank sensor and the cam sensor to figure out the engine timing.

I would say your chance of getting stranded near zilch... But the chance that the car stalls out in the middle of a left hand turn first thing in the morning about 1 in 10... This happened to me... No power to move the car... no power steering... I was a miracle I had enough momentum to get out of the intersection before the on coming traffic creamed me...

IMO this is a safety and reliability problem... GM should offer a voluntary recall on these sensors.

[Poobah]

Yes these POS sensors will ALL fail on ALL 2000-early 2003 Northstars ... Usually just off factory warranty...

I am aware that the crankshaft sensors on early 2000's Northstars are prone to fail. My dealer has a record of having changed one of them four times and the other one once before I bought the car (all in less than 80,000 miles). I plan to replace both of them at my earliest convenience. I'm wondering if the sensors installed in Northstars after early 2003 are interchangeable with the older ones. If so are the ones I would buy today of the later design that should last longer than the ones presently installed?

Any idea what these crankshaft sensors cost?

[adallak]

Yes these POS sensors will ALL fail on ALL 2000-early 2003 Northstars ... Usually just off factory warranty...

I am aware that the crankshaft sensors on early 2000's Northstars are prone to fail. My dealer has a record of having changed one of them four times and the other one once before I bought the car (all in less than 80,000 miles). I plan to replace both of them at my earliest convenience. I'm wondering if the sensors installed in Northstars after early 2003 are interchangeable with the older ones. If so are the ones I would buy today of the later design that should last longer than the ones presently installed?

Any idea what these crankshaft sensors cost?

Happiness is owning a Cadillac with reliable crankshaft sensors and no codes.

[OynxSTS]

Yes these POS sensors will ALL fail on ALL 2000-early 2003 Northstars ... Usually just off factory warranty...

I am aware that the crankshaft sensors on early 2000's Northstars are prone to fail. My dealer has a record of having changed one of them four times and the other one once before I bought the car (all in less than 80,000 miles). I plan to replace both of them at my earliest convenience. I'm wondering if the sensors installed in Northstars after early 2003 are interchangeable with the older ones. If so are the ones I would buy today of the later design that should last longer than the ones presently installed?

Any idea what these crankshaft sensors cost?

1) yes the new sensors are interchangeable...I would say a better way to say it is that they are completely redesigned. The new ones are "stamped" made in Japan... have a somewhat different look, different colors and construction. They should solve the problem "for a long time". The dealership's part guy should only sell new ones now... They are different colors and the sensor "body" has a different shape then the older "made in Mexico" sensor... The new sensors also have metal inserts around the bolt hole. I hate to say it, but the new ones have a "quality" look about them...

2) When I bought mine a little over a year ago they were about $40US each... Not to bad.. considering there relative importance...

3) Changing them one at a time is crazy... The computer will sometimes throw a code if a sensor fails.. but the intermittent failures that these sensors trigger confuse the computer and basically the "A" vs "B" code is a coin flip. With this problem you are lucky if you even get a code.

The service team at your dealership should KNOW this, you should ALWAYS replace them in pairs. If you are looking for a dealership who understands these cars I would consider trying a different establishment. I would bet the dealership replaced 4 good sensors before it replaced the bad one... and then to rub salt in the wound.. they probably used "old" stock, or didn't look up the new part number and now this is your problem..

This thread has the new part numbers... Link to other post

But have your parts guy double check that these are the latest design.

Good Luck

I am aware that the crankshaft sensors on early 2000's Northstars are prone to fail.

PS, saying that these are "prone to fail" is like saying that the Congress is prone to vote itself a raise This is not an 'if" it is a "when"...

[nigel]

being in the uk with a dealer supplied vehicle is no fun, cadillac turned their back on the uk and left those of us with cars just out of warranty with no place to go. the seville was sold here through selected vauxhall dealerships, many of which have either changed marques or gone out of business.

the remaining vauxhall dealers still trading don't sell parts for cadillacs any more. so a recall is about as much use to me as a chocolate fireguard.

because of this i can only obtain crank sensors made by standard, PC275/PC276, through a specialist supplier. most of the online stores in the US also seem to only stock the standard range.

any thoughts on how these parts will last and whats the general quality like.

by the way, i've been quoted a huge £160 (nearly $300!!) for these generic parts.

just to make you smile more, £11 ($20) each for a spark plug!

[Ranger]

http://www.rockauto.com. $32 ea.

[Cadillac Jim]

Try these links for better prices. I don't know if they ship to the UK but I don't see why not.

Rock Auto

GM Parts from their Brasington warehouse

You might also check the links page on this site for parts suppliers. I notice that we have links to the Sweden Cadillac Club and the Stockholm Cadillac Club. You might be able to find European sources through them.

[Poobah]

I bought new upper and lower crankshaft position sensors for my 2000 Deville today. My parts guy said he is aware of the problems with early 2000's sensors. He said he sells a lot of replacements. He told me that Cadillac re-designed the sensors again some time last year. The current design supersedes the early 2003 design. It is made in Japan and he told me that so far they have not had trouble with them. My price was $70.52 each plus tax. I'll get them installed on Wednesday and, hopefully, that will solve the problem.