JasonA Posted March 16, 2006 Report Share Posted March 16, 2006 I talked to the service advisor and mechanic at H&L Auto, whom I had look at my Cadillac today. Their service quote of $640 includes: - a complete system flush - a NEW (not rebuilt) compressor - a new orifice tube - a new dryer - full charge of R-134a - TWO year warranty on all parts (3 months on labor) As I surfed Scotty's thread, I noticed that he spent close to that in the end when he did his. What he did that I won't have with this is a new condenser. The fact that they're doing a complete flush and providing a 2 year warranty, I feel somewhat comfortable with that. What do you all think? Given that this is my driver and my wife needs our other vehicle with the baby seat in it, I feel uncomfortable starting a job that may take a long time to complete, especially if my costs at a repair facility aren't much higher than my own. In all, I don't think that's a bad price, and that's what I'm leaning towards at the moment, after hearing ALL the parts are new, that price includes the full system flush and recharge, and there's more warranty than I'll have, even buying new GM parts. Thoughts? Thanks, Jason(2001 STS, White Diamond) "When you turn your car on...does it return the favor?" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BodybyFisher Posted March 16, 2006 Report Share Posted March 16, 2006 Jason, this is my cost breakdown: Compressor $260 (Delphi) Accumulator $75 Orifice Tube $10 Charge $125 Various Sensors $40 Condenser $210 O-rings, Flush, Flush Gun (check acsource) Not part of the job, I also replaced my serp belt, idler wheel, tensioner and oil filter adapter o-rings This job was not easy but not hard either, the flushing part was really a two man job so it was hard to do by myself. I think that Kevin will recommend a new condenser as they are very hard to flush, but it depends on how clogged your orifice tube is and how bad your compressor is and whether it is throwing debris. If you look at that thread I provided you will see my orifice tube was clogged badly. Mike Pre-1995 - DTC codes OBD1 >> 1996 and newer - DTC codes OBD2 >> https://www.obd-codes.com/trouble_codes/gm/obd_codes.htm How to check for codes Caddyinfo How To Technical Archive >> http://www.caddyinfo.com/wordpress/cadillac-how-to-faq/ Cadillac History & Specifications Year by Year http://www.motorera.com/cadillac/index.htm Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JimD Posted March 16, 2006 Report Share Posted March 16, 2006 Based on what I have read about the condensers, Jason, they cannot be successfully flushed. If there is debris found anywhere in the system (which would indicate the compressor was shedding metal particles), the condenser must be replaced. A new condenser would not add very many $$ to your estimate. Jim Drive your car. Use your cell phone. CHOOSE ONE ! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JasonA Posted March 17, 2006 Author Report Share Posted March 17, 2006 I have not pulled the orifice tube yet. I will do that before any work is done. I'm leaving for a week-long conference on Sunday, so nothing will happen in the next 1-2 weeks anyway. Scotty, your parts were $710, plus the flushing. If I can get away with $640 (depending on the orifice tube condition) with new stuff with a warranty out to 2 years, I think I'll be happy. If the orifice tube is clogged, I may ask them to do a condenser also, or at least ask their advice. They have a guy who only does A/C work, so I'm sure he'll be able to provide sound advice. I mean, it's not like a shop to NOT recommend replacing parts right...if they think it needed replacing, I really think they'd try to add that to the bill. Anyway, I really do appreciate all of you guys' help. Like I said, I still have some time in front of me before any of this happens due to some TDY next week. He said the quote is good for 30 days (and I can't imagine much of a price difference after that). I do plan to start looking at some specifics (like the orifice tube) now that the system is evacuated. Jason(2001 STS, White Diamond) "When you turn your car on...does it return the favor?" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KHE Posted March 17, 2006 Report Share Posted March 17, 2006 Jason, that sounds like a bargain if it is a GM/Delco/Delphi compressor. Many shops use Four Seasons compressors - I call them Four Siezens... Othes use knockoffs made in China... You don't want one of those. If there is any debris in the orifice tube, there will be trash in the condenser. In the R-12 days, the old serpentine condensers could be successfully flushed. The R-134a condensers are parallel flow and it is very difficult to flush them and successfully remove all traces of the flush solvent. If the condenser is not clean, the debris can destroy the new compressor but the fact that the shop offers a two-year warranty speaks volumes assuming they are still around in two years. If the shop says the Delphi/GM unit is a chronic leaker, the case seals were redesigned and any unit manufactured after January, 2001 has the new case seals and is a very durable unit. Heck - the old design made it to 9 years and 150,000 miles. Kevin '93 Fleetwood Brougham '05 Deville '04 Deville 2013 Silverado Z71 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BodybyFisher Posted March 17, 2006 Report Share Posted March 17, 2006 Jason, that is $710 with a new condenser that was $210 so comparable to yours mine is $500 (including sensors that you might not need). BUT, that is not including professional labor costs... So its probably about the same, so it looks like I saved about $140 or less doing it myself (but look at all the fun and knowledge I gained, LOL).... Sounds like you are getting a good price. Check your orifice Pre-1995 - DTC codes OBD1 >> 1996 and newer - DTC codes OBD2 >> https://www.obd-codes.com/trouble_codes/gm/obd_codes.htm How to check for codes Caddyinfo How To Technical Archive >> http://www.caddyinfo.com/wordpress/cadillac-how-to-faq/ Cadillac History & Specifications Year by Year http://www.motorera.com/cadillac/index.htm Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JasonA Posted March 17, 2006 Author Report Share Posted March 17, 2006 This shop has been in business for over 50 years in the same location. It's one of those joints that still operates like it's 1950. They don't try to sell you something you don't need, etc. I asked what brand the compressor was and he said it was a Four Seasons compressor. New, not rebuilt, but still a Four Seasons compressor. He said they are built with the dowel pins so the case can't rotate on itself, assuring a good seal. I went searching on Parts America and Autozone last night and the descriptions of the compressors include a tag line something like, "the OE condenser is a parallel flow unit and should be replaced in the event of a catastrophic compressor failure." Just as you guys are saying. BBF, even rebuilt cheapo compressors are in the $220-280 range. Where'd ya get a NEW Delphi compressor for $260? I couldn't find an aftermarket compressor available with a warranty for more than 1 year, so that 2 year warranty tantalizes me. It makes me think that that Four Seasons unit should last at least as long as anything else I'd buy, save for a Dephi possibly. Jason(2001 STS, White Diamond) "When you turn your car on...does it return the favor?" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BodybyFisher Posted March 17, 2006 Report Share Posted March 17, 2006 Jason, I got my Delphi compressor from www.gmotors.com I don't know how Delphi's corporate problems has influenced the price, but I got mine for $260 but it was about a year ago. Go to their site and request a quote. Mike It's good you found a reputible shop, that helps a lot Pre-1995 - DTC codes OBD1 >> 1996 and newer - DTC codes OBD2 >> https://www.obd-codes.com/trouble_codes/gm/obd_codes.htm How to check for codes Caddyinfo How To Technical Archive >> http://www.caddyinfo.com/wordpress/cadillac-how-to-faq/ Cadillac History & Specifications Year by Year http://www.motorera.com/cadillac/index.htm Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BodybyFisher Posted March 17, 2006 Report Share Posted March 17, 2006 Jason, I just called for you, the price is $386.80. I don't know how I got such a good price, it lists for $650... So you are correct about what you found out about the prices. Mike Pre-1995 - DTC codes OBD1 >> 1996 and newer - DTC codes OBD2 >> https://www.obd-codes.com/trouble_codes/gm/obd_codes.htm How to check for codes Caddyinfo How To Technical Archive >> http://www.caddyinfo.com/wordpress/cadillac-how-to-faq/ Cadillac History & Specifications Year by Year http://www.motorera.com/cadillac/index.htm Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JasonA Posted March 17, 2006 Author Report Share Posted March 17, 2006 Mike, thanks for checking. Whew, sounds expensive. I will first check out my expansion valve. I will then inquire about the condensor with the shop. Why aren't they recommending to change it? If they give me a good answer, I'll go with it. Jason(2001 STS, White Diamond) "When you turn your car on...does it return the favor?" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BodybyFisher Posted March 17, 2006 Report Share Posted March 17, 2006 I believe its due to the age of your car (and mine), they know that this can get very expensive very fast, think about them saying $900 now... and they are replacing the condenser because it can't be cleaned out... This is the reason I did my own, Caddy wanted $750 for the compressor only. Jason, it might make sense for you to do this job yourself, Kevin is the best and will walk you through this (I will try to help also), and you can borrow my flush gun to use with your compressor.. Its time consuming but not hard... DO IT... Pre-1995 - DTC codes OBD1 >> 1996 and newer - DTC codes OBD2 >> https://www.obd-codes.com/trouble_codes/gm/obd_codes.htm How to check for codes Caddyinfo How To Technical Archive >> http://www.caddyinfo.com/wordpress/cadillac-how-to-faq/ Cadillac History & Specifications Year by Year http://www.motorera.com/cadillac/index.htm Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
joeb Posted March 17, 2006 Report Share Posted March 17, 2006 I bought my BIL's 93 grand prix about 8yrs ago. he said the a/c had just been in for repair and it was not working right. he said he spent about $300 or so. not sure on what. I went back to the shop and they said they tried to make it work but that it needed some more new parts. they ended up changing the receiver and orifice tube and recharging of course for about $300 more. they left the old tube on the inner fender lip and it looked as wasted as bobbyfisher's! i am pretty sure the condenser and compressor were not changed. just some info. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JasonA Posted March 17, 2006 Author Report Share Posted March 17, 2006 It appears, according to my service manual, that you need a special tool to remove the expansion valve? How can I get a quick look at this thing? I know where it physically is in the line (just upstream of the evaporator), but don't want to take anything apart yet if I can't extract it without special tools anyway. Jason(2001 STS, White Diamond) "When you turn your car on...does it return the favor?" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KHE Posted March 17, 2006 Report Share Posted March 17, 2006 It appears, according to my service manual, that you need a special tool to remove the expansion valve? How can I get a quick look at this thing? I know where it physically is in the line (just upstream of the evaporator), but don't want to take anything apart yet if I can't extract it without special tools anyway. The system needs to be discharged before you open up the lines. The special tool is only required when it won't come out with needle nose pliers. I would have the A/C guy remove it after he recovers the refrigerant. Kevin '93 Fleetwood Brougham '05 Deville '04 Deville 2013 Silverado Z71 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JasonA Posted March 27, 2006 Author Report Share Posted March 27, 2006 When the shop looked at it last week, I had them discharge the system, so it's sitting empty now. Indeed, the A/C compressor doesn't engage when I request it. Interestingly, I don't get a low refrigerant message on the DIC. Perhaps it'd be there if I went into OBD mode. I'm going out of town AGAIN tomorrow ( ) and hopefully next weekend I'll have time to quickly check the expansion valve. Jason(2001 STS, White Diamond) "When you turn your car on...does it return the favor?" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JasonA Posted April 2, 2006 Author Report Share Posted April 2, 2006 I checked the expansion valve yesterday. Using Scotty's caked-up valve as a reference, mine was remarkably clean, for the compressor to have been making noise for so long. There are just a few bits of metal pieces on the valve screen, but not much more than what would cover the tip of a pencil. So I feel comfortable in NOT replacing the condenser, especially given the warranty they are providing on the new compressor. My last question (I think): in researching the parts for this project, I noticed that there are two types of expansion valves. The "normal" style, for a cost of about $7, and the "variable" style, for a cost of about $25. In just the small bit of reading I did, it appears that they're completely interchangeable, and that a variable expansion valve will provide more of a pressure difference (or maybe it was less) during idle, for better cooling while idling. Does that make any sense? Should I insist the shop install a variable expansion valve, or does it not make much difference in practice? Thanks, Jason(2001 STS, White Diamond) "When you turn your car on...does it return the favor?" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KHE Posted April 2, 2006 Report Share Posted April 2, 2006 Jason, Have the shop install the basic orifice tube - don't waste the money on the variable tube - they do not live up to the marketing claims and tend to make troubleshooting difficult when they fail. Kevin '93 Fleetwood Brougham '05 Deville '04 Deville 2013 Silverado Z71 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mikeal1892 Posted April 2, 2006 Report Share Posted April 2, 2006 Dang, the a/c will run you some coins.. With the 5 cads I have had I have only had to have them changed ... Michael Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JasonA Posted April 3, 2006 Author Report Share Posted April 3, 2006 Kevin, thanks. I think I'm comfortable with the whole thing now. Just need to setup an appointment. Jason(2001 STS, White Diamond) "When you turn your car on...does it return the favor?" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KHE Posted April 3, 2006 Report Share Posted April 3, 2006 Glad to help out - post back when you get it out of the shop. Kevin '93 Fleetwood Brougham '05 Deville '04 Deville 2013 Silverado Z71 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BodybyFisher Posted April 3, 2006 Report Share Posted April 3, 2006 Jason, its great that you don't have a lot of debris in the orifice tube. That will save you a lot of money flushing and replacing the condenser! Mike Pre-1995 - DTC codes OBD1 >> 1996 and newer - DTC codes OBD2 >> https://www.obd-codes.com/trouble_codes/gm/obd_codes.htm How to check for codes Caddyinfo How To Technical Archive >> http://www.caddyinfo.com/wordpress/cadillac-how-to-faq/ Cadillac History & Specifications Year by Year http://www.motorera.com/cadillac/index.htm Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JasonA Posted April 3, 2006 Author Report Share Posted April 3, 2006 The 2 year warranty is what makes me comfortable. I figure the risk is really low that anything will stay in the condenser after the flush, and then hang out for two years, and then proceed to get past the expansion valve into the new compressor... Jason(2001 STS, White Diamond) "When you turn your car on...does it return the favor?" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JasonA Posted April 5, 2006 Author Report Share Posted April 5, 2006 For what it's worth, here is a picture of my expansion valve: Jason(2001 STS, White Diamond) "When you turn your car on...does it return the favor?" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BodybyFisher Posted April 5, 2006 Report Share Posted April 5, 2006 If you are not going to replace the condenser, I would let the orifice tube collect fragments over the summer and pull it out and replace it when the summer is over. Its a fast job, recapture, break the joint, pull it, replace it, and recharge. That way any straggler debris will have migrated through the condenser to the orifice tube. Its good that they will warranty the job 2-years, but its long-term insurance if you change that orifice tube. Pre-1995 - DTC codes OBD1 >> 1996 and newer - DTC codes OBD2 >> https://www.obd-codes.com/trouble_codes/gm/obd_codes.htm How to check for codes Caddyinfo How To Technical Archive >> http://www.caddyinfo.com/wordpress/cadillac-how-to-faq/ Cadillac History & Specifications Year by Year http://www.motorera.com/cadillac/index.htm Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JasonA Posted April 5, 2006 Author Report Share Posted April 5, 2006 This is something I've always wondered... Doesn't the expansion valve in effect act as a filter...at least to the metal debris? How will harmful pieces of debris migrate from the condenser to the compressor, if they're in there, since they have to pass through the expansion valve -- which seems to catch them all anyway? I know it's not good to have trash in the system, but I don't understand how harmful stuff in the condenser can even GET to the compressor... Jason(2001 STS, White Diamond) "When you turn your car on...does it return the favor?" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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